Penal Substitution Theology and the faith of those without it

[Van]

As I said before the purchase, the ransom, the sin offering ENABLED reconciliation. Christ became the propitiation, the means of salvation/reconciliation. Before Christ died, there was no way for anyone to be reconciled to God. But as our propitiationary shelter, everyone God places in Christ is reconciled. The sin burden is removed and carried away, allowing us to be united with God, at one with God.

I know you keep referencing the ECF and notable men of faith who apparently combined the purchase with the reconciliation, and you simply cannot fathom that they all were wrong. All I can do is point to scripture.

For example, you say, "Without the initial reconciliation of humanity, man cannot be reconciled." But I say where does scripture say that?

I have shown Christ laid down His life as a ransom for all.
I have show Christ purchased with His blood individuals that were headed for swift destruction, thus never saved. And I have shown Christ became the propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world.

 

[JonC]

As I said before the purchase, the ransom, the sin offering ENABLED reconciliation. Christ became the propitiation, the means of salvation/reconciliation. Before Christ died, there was no way for anyone to be reconciled to God. But as our propitiationary shelter, everyone God places in Christ is reconciled. The sin burden is removed and carried away, allowing us to be united with God, at one with God.

I know you keep referencing the ECF and notable men of faith who apparently combined the purchase with the reconciliation, and you simply cannot fathom that they all were wrong. All I can do is point to scripture.

I don’t “keep” referencing the ECF’s, Van. I mentioned them once. The reason I mentioned them was only to try to get you away from your understanding of reconciliation under PSA (the ECF’s did not hold to PSA).

As I’ve said before, the purchase, the ransom, the sin offering enabled the reconciliation of men. Christ became the propitiation, the means of salvation/reconciliation. The sin burden is removed and carried away, allowing us to be united with God, at one with God. This is individual atonement. At the same time, scripture teaches us that the Word became flesh, experienced humanity. Humanity is reconciled in Christ, and it is because of this that we can be reconciled in Christ. Don’t be so quick to discount the Incarnation in your theology, brother.

To rephrase my understanding. Our hope of reconciliation in Christ is clear as man has been reconciled to God in Christ, which is why Paul fixes our hope on the resurrection. Jesus is the first of many brethren (in Him humanity is reconciled to God, therefore we are reconciled in Christ to God and urge all men to be reconciled to God).

 

[HankD]

I guess I'm one of those who sees them both together (propitiation, reconciliation).

The Trinity short formula is - 3 distinct persons in one divine essence. Distinct, but not separate.

So perhaps salvation is 2 distinct entities in one act of salvation.

How can we separate the two? IMO we can't. Distinct, but not separate.

HankD

 

[JonC]

I guess I'm one of those who sees them both together.

The Trinity short formula is - 3 distinct persons in one divine essence. Distinct, but not separate.

So perhaps salvation is 2 distinct entities in one act of salvation.

How can we separate the two? IMO we can't. Distinct, but not separate.

HankD

I don't know. Insofar as reconciliation I see two distinct events (humanity reconciled as Jesus is the propitiation for the sin of man and men reconciled as they believe). What do you mean by two distinct entities, Hank?

 

[HankD]

I don't know. Insofar as reconciliation I see two distinct events (humanity reconciled as Jesus is the propitiation for the sin of man and men reconciled as they believe). What do you mean by two distinct entities, Hank?

Hi JonC, I gave the illustration of the short definition of the Trinity - Three distinct persons in one divine essence.
The Trinity is not three separate persons, that is Mormonism and is not the orthodox view of the Trinity.

Salvific Propitiation and reconciliation are not separate IMO but distinct and are intimately bound together in the person of Jesus Christ.

Personally I don't like slice and dice theology but sometimes it is indeed necessary.

HankD

 

[JonC]

Hi JonC, I gave the illustration of the short definition of the Trinity - Three distinct persons in one divine essence.
The Trinity is not three separate persons, that is Mormonism and is not the orthodox view of the Trinity.

Salvific Propitiation and reconciliation are not separate IMO but distinct and are intimately bound together in the person of Jesus Christ.

Personally I don't like slice and dice theology but sometimes it is indeed necessary.

HankD

Ok, thanks for helping me out on this one. I agree with you. I do not think that they can be separated and maintain coherence.

And I'll add that this is true, IMHO, with salvation as a whole to a great degree. We examine aspects, but we cannot divide salvation into standalone micro-doctrines. It is all interdependent.

 

[TCassidy]

Hi JonC, I gave the illustration of the short definition of the Trinity - Three distinct persons in one divine essence.
The Trinity is not three separate persons, that is Mormonism and is not the orthodox view of the Trinity.

Yep. That is why it is called the Hypostatic Union.

 

[Van]

Scripture says humanity was purchased, ransomed with His blood. Scripture does not say humanity was reconciled, past tense. You can keep asserting that fiction till the cows come home. Nothing I can say will cause you to stick with scripture. You have made up, invented, the requirement for humanity to be reconciled before individuals can be reconciled. No, what Christ became is the propitiation or means of reconciliation for the whole world. The just for the unjust.

 

[kyredneck]

Read my sig now

WILLIS! It makes my heart happy to know you're still around. 'I knew' there was something familiar about you....

 

[Van]

Yes, HankD, both the purchase/ransom and the salvation/reconciliation are distinct parts of one thing, God's redemption plan for fallen humanity. Whoever believes into Him shall not perish but have eternal life.

Almost anyone (3 of the 4 soils) can believe, but only those whose faith God credits as righteousness are placed in Christ and reconciled by the washing of regeneration.

Lets return to 1 Peter 2:24, "and He Himself bore our sins in His body on the cross, so that we might die to sin and live to righteousness; for by His wounds you were healed. Note the two parts, first He Himself bore or carried (purchased and ransomed) our sins (included as part of the sin of the world) in His body on the cross. All that is a distinct part of the redemption plan,

Next the "so that we might" refers to what was enabled, we might if God puts us into Christ, die to sin (the circumcision of Christ) and live (we are made alive together with Christ) for righteousness (Christ).

Finally, those that had been placed in Christ and reconciled, are addressed, "for by His wounds you were healed."

 

[JonC]

Scripture says humanity was purchased, ransomed with His blood. Scripture does not say humanity was reconciled, past tense. You can keep asserting that fiction till the cows come home. Nothing I can say will cause you to stick with scripture. You have made up, invented, the requirement for humanity to be reconciled before individuals can be reconciled. No, what Christ became is the propitiation or means of reconciliation for the whole world. The just for the unjust.

Brother, I have provided scripture and we have disagreed about that scripture. Scripture says that what God was doing in Christ was reconciliation. You can call it what you want (but all of the versions that I have use that word for what God was doing in Christ, and also to that ministry that continues with us). I am not here saying that you disregard scripture for denying that God has elected individuals to be saved before they were born. The reason I am not saying that is I know that we differ in interpreting those passages. And that is fine.

I believe that Jesus was completely man and completely God, humanity reconciled in Christ (Incarnation to Cross). You disagree. I am not saying that you are denying scripture. I am saying that you are caught up on the reconciliation of individual men that you are missing another important doctrine. That's why I said Admiral Nelson. You put the scope to the blind eye and complain that you can't see. If it's any consolation, Nelson's disobedience won him a promotion.

Let’s look at it this way, do you think that it is important that the humanity of Christ be upheld? I've provided my answer (that God purposed through Christ this reconciliation). In other words, what significance do you see in the biblical assertion that God became man, experienced what it is to be human, and is the “last Adam”?

 

[Van]

Sir, I provided scripture that says God is reconciling the world to Himself, you did not provide scripture that says God has reconciled the world. Scripture does not say what God was doing in Christ was reconciliation of the world.

Yes, I deny God elected individuals for salvation before the foundation of the world, He elected corporately those His Redeemer would redeem when He elected His redeemer. You deny we are chosen for salvation through faith (not foreseen faith) in the truth, which puts our individual election during our lives, after we have believed.

And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation. This refers to individuals that have been placed in Christ.

For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
Here the idea is the spread of the ministry of reconciliation to the Gentiles. To claim this says the world has been reconciled is twaddle.

Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,

namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

Again no verse says or suggests God has reconciled humanity.

Scripture again tells us what Christ accomplished by living a sinless life, He fulfilled the requirement to be the Lamb of God without blemish. He became our sin offering, the just for the unjust.

I am not sure but I do not recall if you admitted or denied that individuals are reconciled when they are placed spiritually in Christ.

 

[JonC]

Sir, I provided scripture that says God is reconciling the world to Himself, you did not provide scripture that says God has reconciled the world. Scripture does not say what God was doing in Christ was reconciliation of the world.

Yes, I deny God elected individuals for salvation before the foundation of the world, He elected corporately those His Redeemer would redeem when He elected His redeemer. You deny we are chosen for salvation through faith (not foreseen faith) in the truth, which puts our individual election during our lives, after we have believed.

And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation. This refers to individuals that have been placed in Christ.

For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
Here the idea is the spread of the ministry of reconciliation to the Gentiles. To claim this says the world has been reconciled is twaddle.

Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,

namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

Again no verse says or suggests God has reconciled humanity.

You are OK, Van, when it comes to stating what you believe. You are horrible about telling people what they believe.

No, I do not deny that we are chosen for salvation through faith. You are presuming too much in your arguments. The "act" of election is in God drawing men to himself. The "decision", however, is not. Do I believe that God has determined His people from eternity past? Yes, I do. But that does not give you the right to put my beliefs into your theories and attribute to me "logical conclusions" based on your faulty theology. John 1 tells us that humanity is reconciled to God, and if humanity is not reconciled to God in Christ then it is impossible that Jesus was fully man and fully God, end of story, end of comments, end of argument. You are wrong here, but your error is that you are so completely blinded by one position that you can't see anything outside of that view but that position.

 

[Darrell C]

Sir, I provided scripture that says God is reconciling the world to Himself, you did not provide scripture that says God has reconciled the world. Scripture does not say what God was doing in Christ was reconciliation of the world.

Yes, I deny God elected individuals for salvation before the foundation of the world, He elected corporately those His Redeemer would redeem when He elected His redeemer. You deny we are chosen for salvation through faith (not foreseen faith) in the truth, which puts our individual election during our lives, after we have believed.

And not only this, but we also exult in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, through whom we have now received the reconciliation. This refers to individuals that have been placed in Christ.

For if their rejection is the reconciliation of the world, what will their acceptance be but life from the dead?
Here the idea is the spread of the ministry of reconciliation to the Gentiles. To claim this says the world has been reconciled is twaddle.

Now all these things are from God, who reconciled us to Himself through Christ and gave us the ministry of reconciliation,

namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

Again no verse says or suggests God has reconciled humanity.

Scripture again tells us what Christ accomplished by living a sinless life, He fulfilled the requirement to be the Lamb of God without blemish. He became our sin offering, the just for the unjust.

I am not sure but I do not recall if you admitted or denied that individuals are reconciled when they are placed spiritually in Christ.

Just thought I would throw this one in as well, in case it hasn't yet been presented:


Romans 5:11

King James Version (KJV)

11 And not only so, but we also joy in God through our Lord Jesus Christ, by whom we have now received the atonement.



God bless.

 

[Van]

Scripture says Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a "curse" for us. So we can add becoming a curse, becoming a sin offering, becoming the propitiation to the work Christ accomplished on the cross.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

No, what Christ became is the propitiation or means of reconciliation for the whole world.

You keep repeating this particular mantra, but you tend to vary it from time to time. Elsewhere you wrote that Christ has become the 'propitiation or means of salvation for the whole world. Is there a difference in your view?.
Do you believe that the terms 'propitiation' and 'means of reconciliation/salvation' are synonymous? What do you think is the meaning of the word 'propitiation'?

I'm just trying to get my head around what you are saying.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Scripture says Christ has redeemed us from the curse of the Law, having become a "curse" for us. So we can had becoming a curse, becoming a sin offering, becoming the propitiation to the work Christ accomplished on the cross.

You might want to translate this into English.

 

[Van]

Hi Martin, I know you do not deny that Christ is the means of salvation. And you do not deny Christ is the propitiation for the whole world, all of humanity. I have posted what the Greek word family means several times. I fear you are wanting to change the subject because what Christ accomplished on the cross was not the reconciliation of all mankind.l

 

[JonC]

In the days of His flesh, He'd offered up both prayers and supplications with loud crying and tears to the One able to save Him from death, and He was heard because of His piety. Although He was a Son, He learned obedience from the things which He suffered. And having been made perfect, He became to all those who obey Him the source of eternal salvation, being designated by God as a high priest according to the order of Melchizedek.

 

[Van]

Hi Darrel, yes we discussed some translation translate the Greek word meaning reconciliation as atonement. This just confuses the discussion with some using "atonement" to refer to what Christ accomplished on the cross, and others only using it to mean the reconciliation that occurs when God puts an individual into Christ, where they undergo the washing of regeneration and are united with Christ, at one with God.