It is prophetic in tense. He is speaking about what will happen when the Spirit is given...after He is glorified. John makes this clear.
Fifth, You don't seem to understand the basics of the fall "in Adam" or you would not even being arguing this point.
As I said, Biblicist, this is actually the strength of my argument, and if you will give me the time I can show you why.
Though I am really at the end of my time here, I will extend my time here (hey, did you fell that? There was a disturbance in the force...(just kidding, lol) to examine this issue with you.
The very fact that men are dead spiritually can be seen...even in Christ's day.
Consider:
John 6:47-51
King James Version (KJV)
47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.
48 I am that bread of life.
49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.
50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.
51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.
In view, Biblicist, is the truth that despite the Old Testament provision for "life," their fathers were dead. Christ contrasts the Life He came down from Heaven to bestow with the life of the fathers (and this would certainly include Moses, a man of great faith), which was sustained through physical supply/provision.
Now note the True Bread which a man might eat is...His flesh. Or in other words, He is speaking about His death. And the Gospel of Christ demands that men believe on the Resurrected Savior, Who died for them.
Now again, I ask you...who in the Old Testament did? Not one. They had faith in the Promise of Messiah, but they did not understand it because the Mystery was not revealed to them.
The "believing" that took place during His ministry is quite different, and can be seen to be, before and after the Cross. The means of enlightenment to the Mystery of the Gospel is the very Spirit sent, Who convicts of sin, righteousness, and judgment.
Yes, you are correct, the Baptism with the Holy Ghost cannot be understood apart from understanding that Adam died spiritually which is that he was separated from God through sin, and his offspring is born into that condition, literally dead in trespasses and sins. Neither can one understand being regenerated, born again, apart from understanding this.
But what you are rejecting, my friend, is a simple truth that will open up your understanding of both issues.
It was not until God manifested in flesh that men were given opportunity to be reconciled to God, and that separation repaired. That is why God was in Christ...reconciling the world unto Himself.
A few passages to consider in light of that:
John 1:11-13
King James Version (KJV)
11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.
12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:
13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.
Men were not born of God until Christ came from Heaven (this is the True Bread, contrasted with the physical provision of the Old Testament (i.e., manna, physical land, physical rest)), died on the Cross to make Atonement, resurrected, returned to Heaven, and received the Spirit that was promised (Ezekiel 36:27).
Titus 3:4-5
King James Version (KJV)
4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,
5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;
When did that kindness and love appear, Biblicist? And are we not saved by the cleansing of rebirth and...the renewing of the Holy Ghost? Which is that reunion of God with man, that remedy for man's primary problem he is born into? That he is separated from God?
One more, in regards to the Old Testament Saint:
Hebrews 9:12-15
King James Version (KJV)
12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.
13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:
14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?
15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.
Understand? Just as he will say in Chapter 11...the men of faith, though justified by their faith...did not receie the promises.
They died still in debt to sin, their sins not forgiven, and without the Eternal Redemption which could only be obtained through, as Christ states in John 6...His flesh.
So once again what you think I am confused about is in fact a false argument, and if you give this attention, you will see it is not only the strength of my view, but clarifies that the Baptism with the Holy Ghost is not a matter of administration, but a matter of being immersed into God.
That is salvation in Christ, my friend, and the means of those who are spiritually dead...to be quickened.
Now, you say we cannot progress until this matter is cleared up. I agree, because there are a number of issues we have not yet discussed that have to be considered. So I have answered your assertion, the ball is in your court...address this point.
Continued...
