Featured The Baptism With the Holy Ghost

And none of the above, lol...had anything to do with water baptism either.

Sorry, no, John was like many Old Testament Saints filled with the Holy Spirit.


Luke 1:15

King James Version (KJV)

15 For he shall be great in the sight of the Lord, and shall drink neither wine nor strong drink; and he shall be filled with the Holy Ghost, even from his mother's womb.


You are in good company, though, brother, because many equate the filling of the Spirit in the Old Testament with the Baptism with the Holy Ghost. You, TC, and Biblicist are pretty much in agreement, and the only question is...

...how can you say "None of the above"?

Sorry, no, because Scripture is clear that no-one was Baptized with the Spirit of God until after Christ left, even as He said it must be:


John 16:7

King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.


That the Comforter is the Promised Spirit is seen here:



Acts 1:4-5

King James Version (KJV)

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.


If you care to read the thread it might help you to better understand the Poll.


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No idea what you mean, unless you are speaking about being left behind when Christ returns.

Then for the time I would think you would have a definite position on what the Baptism with the Holy Ghost is.

So far you have simply implied John and the thief on the Cross received the Baptism with the Holy Ghost which is impossible.

For one thing, John prophesied that One was coming Who would Baptize with the Spirit and with fire. How then was John Baptized with the Spirit by Christ (Who is the Baptizer, an important truth) when Christ is not yet Incarnate?

I believe they are right, lol. Though I also believe that the Holy Ghost, the Comforter...will visit every man between the cradle and the grave.

That is the ministry He is performing in this Age, unto both believers as well as in a teaching ministry unto believers:


John 16:7-9

King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;




John 16:12-14

King James Version (KJV)

12 I have yet many things to say unto you, but ye cannot bear them now.

13 Howbeit when he, the Spirit of truth, is come, he will guide you into all truth: for he shall not speak of himself; but whatsoever he shall hear, that shall he speak: and he will shew you things to come.

14 He shall glorify me: for he shall receive of mine, and shall shew it unto you.


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Not even relevant.

This is true, for when one is Baptized with the Holy Ghost they receive the Holy Ghost in fulfillment of the Promise of the Father:


Ezekiel 36:24-27

King James Version (KJV)

24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.

So you do not question whether Joseph Smith or Charles Taze Russel or Muhammad belong to God or not? You do not take a position on the doctrine that comes out of those groups?

I do, and do not apologize for it. I also question the teaching of the Charismatic Movement, though I believe many fallen into that group are sincere believers. And one teaching inparticular which they, unlike, apparently Baptists here, have a definitive statement on what the baptism with the Holy Ghost is.

To our shame.

We should be ready to give an answer to any man that asketh the hope which lies within us, and part of that hope is that when we believe we receive the eternal indwelling of God.

And God has given us a ministry in which we do not simply take for granted that anyone claiming to be a Christian is in fact a Christian, but we are to try the spirits, right?

But let each man be persuaded in his own mind.

I would only ask that you read the thread, my friend.


God bless.

 

My understanding of what you are saying is evident in the responses I gave you. You once again make a claim that I "do not understand" issues which I speak about on a regular basis on this, and every forum I am on.

I am not the one engaging in peat and repeat, lol.

Already answered. It is for you to address my response to your belief of my supposed confusion on Who baptizes who.

And what you are missing in trying grammatically justify your view is that...

...no-one was believing.

The Gospel of Christ was not being revealed during Christ's Ministry.

I asked you to show me who was, and gave you a presentation of why I view them as not believing in the Risen Savior, as well as spoke directly to what they did believe about Messiah.

I already addressed this. Again, why would you have me address it again?

You are saying the exact opposite of what is actually said in the passage, saying they had the Spirit of God...when He is not even given, because Christ is not yet glorified.

Already addressed: they do not. The Spirit is with them, but would be in them when the Comforter is sent. Again...al;ready addressed.

False argument. I just spent six pages with a "Baptist" teaching annihilation discussing this point in "Conditional Immortality."

You feel you do not have to address my points in regards to your assertions because you mistakenly think I am confused about spiritual death and life?

My friend...that is the strength of my argument, so if you want to pursue that avenue of discussion I am okay with that.


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It would help if you simply addressed my responses to your assertions. You are still trying to make the Baptism with the Holy Ghost a matter of validation only.

Doesn't change the teachings of Christ or the Old Testament concerning the New Covenant. Gentile Inclusion is written into the Gospel found in the Old Testament, so we do not view the Promised Spirit as dealing with Gentiles only, because the Spirit is given and the result is one man.

And just for the record, none of the Apostles were in confusion about the Baptism with the Holy Ghost being related to water baptism, they understood what was going on because the Spirit enlightened them.

On the contrary, there is an immersion into God.

Here's a couple verses to illustrate that:


John 14:16-20; 23;

King James Version (KJV)

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.

19 Yet a little while, and the world seeth me no more; but ye see me: because I live, ye shall live also.

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.


23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.



John 17:20-23

King James Version (KJV)


20 Neither pray I for these alone, but for them also which shall believe on me through their word;

21 That they all may be one; as thou, Father, art in me, and I in thee, that they also may be one in us: that the world may believe that thou hast sent me.

22 And the glory which thou gavest me I have given them; that they may be one, even as we are one:

23 I in them, and thou in me, that they may be made perfect in one; and that the world may know that thou hast sent me, and hast loved them, as thou hast loved me.



Revelation 3:20

King James Version (KJV)

20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.


Truly, no generic God are we immersed into.


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The present tense is denied:


John 7:37-39

King James Version (KJV)

37 In the last day, that great day of the feast, Jesus stood and cried, saying, If any man thirst, let him come unto me, and drink.

38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)


It is the prophetic tense you are missing.

There is no infilling, for the Spirit is not given yet.

On the contrary:


John 14:16-18

King James Version (KJV)

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.


But then I have addressed this in great detail. Reiterating the same arguments doesn't make your case any stronger, and ignoring response to your assertions greatly weakens it.


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It is prophetic in tense. He is speaking about what will happen when the Spirit is given...after He is glorified. John makes this clear.

As I said, Biblicist, this is actually the strength of my argument, and if you will give me the time I can show you why.

Though I am really at the end of my time here, I will extend my time here (hey, did you fell that? There was a disturbance in the force...(just kidding, lol) to examine this issue with you.

The very fact that men are dead spiritually can be seen...even in Christ's day.

Consider:


John 6:47-51

King James Version (KJV)


47 Verily, verily, I say unto you, He that believeth on me hath everlasting life.

48 I am that bread of life.

49 Your fathers did eat manna in the wilderness, and are dead.

50 This is the bread which cometh down from heaven, that a man may eat thereof, and not die.

51 I am the living bread which came down from heaven: if any man eat of this bread, he shall live for ever: and the bread that I will give is my flesh, which I will give for the life of the world.


In view, Biblicist, is the truth that despite the Old Testament provision for "life," their fathers were dead. Christ contrasts the Life He came down from Heaven to bestow with the life of the fathers (and this would certainly include Moses, a man of great faith), which was sustained through physical supply/provision.

Now note the True Bread which a man might eat is...His flesh. Or in other words, He is speaking about His death. And the Gospel of Christ demands that men believe on the Resurrected Savior, Who died for them.

Now again, I ask you...who in the Old Testament did? Not one. They had faith in the Promise of Messiah, but they did not understand it because the Mystery was not revealed to them.

The "believing" that took place during His ministry is quite different, and can be seen to be, before and after the Cross. The means of enlightenment to the Mystery of the Gospel is the very Spirit sent, Who convicts of sin, righteousness, and judgment.

Yes, you are correct, the Baptism with the Holy Ghost cannot be understood apart from understanding that Adam died spiritually which is that he was separated from God through sin, and his offspring is born into that condition, literally dead in trespasses and sins. Neither can one understand being regenerated, born again, apart from understanding this.

But what you are rejecting, my friend, is a simple truth that will open up your understanding of both issues.

It was not until God manifested in flesh that men were given opportunity to be reconciled to God, and that separation repaired. That is why God was in Christ...reconciling the world unto Himself.

A few passages to consider in light of that:


John 1:11-13

King James Version (KJV)

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


Men were not born of God until Christ came from Heaven (this is the True Bread, contrasted with the physical provision of the Old Testament (i.e., manna, physical land, physical rest)), died on the Cross to make Atonement, resurrected, returned to Heaven, and received the Spirit that was promised (Ezekiel 36:27).


Titus 3:4-5

King James Version (KJV)

4 But after that the kindness and love of God our Saviour toward man appeared,

5 Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost;


When did that kindness and love appear, Biblicist? And are we not saved by the cleansing of rebirth and...the renewing of the Holy Ghost? Which is that reunion of God with man, that remedy for man's primary problem he is born into? That he is separated from God?

One more, in regards to the Old Testament Saint:


Hebrews 9:12-15

King James Version (KJV)


12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


Understand? Just as he will say in Chapter 11...the men of faith, though justified by their faith...did not receie the promises.

They died still in debt to sin, their sins not forgiven, and without the Eternal Redemption which could only be obtained through, as Christ states in John 6...His flesh.

So once again what you think I am confused about is in fact a false argument, and if you give this attention, you will see it is not only the strength of my view, but clarifies that the Baptism with the Holy Ghost is not a matter of administration, but a matter of being immersed into God.

That is salvation in Christ, my friend, and the means of those who are spiritually dead...to be quickened.

Now, you say we cannot progress until this matter is cleared up. I agree, because there are a number of issues we have not yet discussed that have to be considered. So I have answered your assertion, the ball is in your court...address this point.


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And sorry, but I am in a hurry to get to as much of this as I can this morning, and have gotten some of this out of order, which shouldn't be too big of an issue.

You are not Trinitarian? You distinguish between the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost to the point that you miss the fact that Christ promises He will come to the disciples (and this is prophetic), that the Father will come to the disciples, and the Spirit will come to the disciples.

God is One, my friend, and just as the Disciples saw the Father when they saw Christ, even so we are indwelt by the Triune God.

So your distinction opens up an entirely different issue that has to be addressed, which, if you ask me, has already been addressed in the previous posts.

Look at the Greek, Biblicist. Another of the same kind.

The context deals with Christ revealing His return to Heaven. He comforts them in their sorrow by saying "I will not leave you alone. I will come to you."

He is God, Biblicist.

Your distinction goes too far.

Read this again with that in mind...


Romans 8:9-10

King James Version (KJV)


9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

10 And if Christ be in you, the body is dead because of sin; but the Spirit is life because of righteousness.


Now...Who is it that came? Who are we indwelt by? Was it taking place while Christ spoke to the disciples?


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That their names are written in the Lamb's Book of Life does not substantiate a view that men were indwelt by the Promised Spirit before the Promise was fulfilled on Pentecost.

Nor does it substantiate a view that the Baptism with the Holy Ghost is not the Eternal Indwelling of God.

So who believed on the Risen Lord prior to the Cross and Pentecost?

Just one person, Biblicist, that's all I ask. And please keep in mind the passages already quoted that make it clear that the disciples had no understanding of the Mystery.

What this would mean is that men can respond to the Gospel apart from a conscious understanding of the Gospel. I went into great detail on this point already and would rather not have to reiterate what has already been addressed.

There is no "inflow" yet, brother...the Spirit is not given.

You are creating two Spirits with your assertion, which is precisely what many do, namely our charismatic brethren.

Thanks for Bible 101, brother, lol.

We are in full agreement on this, and I speak about this regularly in my posting. This is one of the reasons many here put me on ignore.

They reject the notion that men "were not saved" in the Old Testament, but that is not what I teach. Men were saved, and through justification through faith, yet they all died not having their sins forgiven, and not having received the Spirit of Promise. This is better understood if one understands the theme of perfection in Hebrews, but to my knowledge there are only two members here who understand that.

Perfection, or completion...was accomplished by Christ, and this through His death.

Secondly, what is also highly misunderstood is the fact that we are under the New Covenant in Christ, not the First (Covenant of Law). The Law could not make them complete, thus they died without being made complete.

The writer speaks of their being made complete through...the New Covenant:


Hebrews 12:22-24

King James Version (KJV)


22 But ye are come unto mount Sion, and unto the city of the living God, the heavenly Jerusalem, and to an innumerable company of angels,

23 To the general assembly and church of the firstborn, which are written in heaven, and to God the Judge of all, and to the spirits of just men made perfect,

24 And to Jesus the mediator of the new covenant, and to the blood of sprinkling, that speaketh better things than that of Abel.


The distinction of "spirits" is due to the fact that regeneration takes place in the physical body, something impossible for those Saints who had died in faith. Their perfection took place in the Spirit.


Continued...

 

And it is a distraction from what has already been addressed.

I am not so think as you confused I am.

And you feel the need to lecture me because...?

lol

You're on the right track, brother. This is crucial to understanding the Baptism with the Holy Ghost and Regeneration.

The washing of regeneration is the result, the renewing of the Holy Ghost the means.

See the New Birth here:


Ezekiel 36:24-27

King James Version (KJV)


24 For I will take you from among the heathen, and gather you out of all countries, and will bring you into your own land.

25 Then will I sprinkle clean water upon you, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you.

26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh.

27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them.


This is the Promise of the Father, my friend.

Agreed.

Not agreed. We see men Baptized with the Spirit spanning a long period of time.

Paul wrote:


Romans 6:3

King James Version (KJV)

3 Know ye not, that so many of us as were baptized into Jesus Christ were baptized into his death?


1 Corinthians 12:13

King James Version (KJV)

13 For by one Spirit are we all baptized into one body, whether we be Jews or Gentiles, whether we be bond or free; and have been all made to drink into one Spirit.


Is Paul speaking about being immersed into Christ Who is God, or being publicly made members of the visible Church?

Are made to drink into One Spirit when we get dunked, or when we are immersed into God?

Simply an astounding statement, quite surprising.

"The Baptism with the Holy Ghost can have no possible relationship with spiritual salvation or spiritual union with God."



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We know there is, in the sense that the Revelation of the Mystery of the Gospel is revealed in this Age, not in those prior to this Age.

Again, this has been addressed.

But let's take it a step further, and see what you think of another rejected Biblical Truth: God has, and always will...judge men based on their obedience to the revealed will of God they have available to them.

And since you are not bothering to address my points, I will not try to develop this point, which would help you to understand better the error of thinking the Just of all Ages have always been saved by a Mystery Paul makes clear was not available to them, and Eternal Redemption that Christ and most of the Apostles make clear was not available:


Romans 2:11-16

King James Version (KJV)


11 For there is no respect of persons with God.

12 For as many as have sinned without law shall also perish without law: and as many as have sinned in the law shall be judged by the law;

13 (For not the hearers of the law are just before God, but the doers of the law shall be justified.

14 For when the Gentiles, which have not the law, do by nature the things contained in the law, these, having not the law, are a law unto themselves:

15 Which shew the work of the law written in their hearts, their conscience also bearing witness, and their thoughts the mean while accusing or else excusing one another)

16 In the day when God shall judge the secrets of men by Jesus Christ according to my gospel.


Did the Gentile who did not have the Law have no hope of standing in the judgment? If one says no, then they miss a very Basic Bible Principle concerning the Just nature of God.

How did these men shew the works of the law written in their hearts? Well Paul tells us...it was written in their hearts. This is contrasted with those who knew God but turned from Him in Chapter One.

But I can see you are not interested in addressing these points, so as I said, I will not bore you with the details.


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There is: there are those justified by faith in the Old Testament who awaited Eternal Redemption and remission of sins accomplished only by Christ.

But I can't make you understand the distinction if you choose to reject everything I say, and avoid addressing my response to your assertions, and ignore the Scripture provided.

I don't condemn the whole human race, lol...Scripture does. Christ does. The Apostles do.

Jew and Gentile were immersed into Christ, making the new man.

If the member of the Church is a new man, how then do you place the Church into the Old Testament? Scripture is pretty clear, there were Jews, there were Gentiles, then, when God immersed believers into Christ...there was the new man.

Not only is my Doctrine far from Catholic, I can show you the similarities between Catholics and the Reformed/Protestant groups who bicker constantly, though they are in many ways so similar as to make it hard to distinguish between them, lol.

Of course, several times you have sought to correct me on points we are in agreement on, supposing that I lack that perspective or view.

Okay. It is clear you do not want serious discussion of the issues, so feel free to continue to ignore the points raised.


God bless.

 

This shows you are not even reading the responses, Biblicist. This is addressed in full detail, and can be discussed in greater detail.

As I said, perhaps in a future setting, when and if you give any consideration to what I have already said, we might have a productive conversation.

Until that time, as I said, my prayers are with you.


God bless.