Historic(Chialist) pre-mill view?

[SovereignGrace]

I ask that only those who hold to the Historic(Chialist) pre-mill view answer. I don't want varying views clogging up the thread, please.

1)In this eschatology, is there a literal seven year trib/great-trib pre-1,000 years reign? Or does the church go through tribulation right up until Christ's second coming?

2)What is the view of God dealing with the Jews and church now?

I reserve the right to ask further questions to clear up any misunderstandings on my part.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Will someone move this to the 'bible study' forum so it will get more traffic? Thanx.

 

[TCassidy]

1)In this eschatology, is there a literal seven year trib/great-trib pre-1,000 years reign? Or does the church go through tribulation right up until Christ's second coming?

In my experience there is no great consensus of opinion regarding the tribulation. However, most of us see the tribulation as yet future, coming prior to the consummation of the age. And most Historic Chillasts lean toward a post trib catching away of the saints (sometimes humorously called the "U turn" theory).

2)What is the view of God dealing with the Jews and church now?

Again, no great consensus, but most of us see the New Covenant People of God being the beneficiaries of God's promises to Spiritual Israel, with some double fulfillment. Most of us believe God will again deal with Israel, but primarily in the form of Spiritual Israel.

Hope that is a good start.

 

[SovereignGrace]

So TCassidy, by post-trib, you mean the church goes through a literal 7 year trib with 3.5 trib and 3.5 great-trib after anti-christ is killed? Because I think a rapturing away prior to the trib would go against the flow that the church isn't to go through tribulation, when the church is called to go through tribulations.

 

[TCassidy]

So TCassidy, by post-trib, you mean the church goes through a literal 7 year trib with 3.5 trib and 3.5 great-trib after anti-christ is killed?

Well, I am not sure of the duration or the time table, but, yes, that is, in essence, what post trib suggests.

Because I think a rapturing away prior to the trib would go against the flow that the church isn't to go through tribulation, when the church is called to go through tribulations.

I tend to agree. However, does the word "tribulation" have more than one connotation? Can there be tribulation, Tribulation, and Great Tribulation? Rather like anti-Christ. There is anti-Christ and there is Anti-Christ.

 

[Van]

Will someone please provide the scriptural basis for the Historic/Chialist pre-mill view?

 

[JamesL]

Will someone please provide the scriptural basis for the Historic/Chialist pre-mill view?

It involves numerous aspects. Which are you wanting scripture for?

That Jesus will return?
That He will reign literally?
That there's a literal Tribulation?
That there's a literal man of sin?
The U-turn (as TCassidy mentioned)?
That believers will endure Tribulation?

There are others, but you probably get the idea. Whatchu want?

 

[Darrell C]

1)In this eschatology, is there a literal seven year trib/great-trib pre-1,000 years reign? Or does the church go through tribulation right up until Christ's second coming?

I think we would probably see, in antiquity, the same thing we see today: there would have been numerous views among them. It is likely that there would have been those who, for example, believed in a thousand year reign, but did not pick up on other issues that a study of Eschatology in detail would have brought out. I would also suggest that many cultures did not have the "ease" with which we are blessed with today, where, we have readily available manuscripts, do personal study (rather than hearing bits and pieces in public readings, which is replicated in this Age by those not as enthusiastic about Bible Study as most here are).

2)What is the view of God dealing with the Jews and church now?

There are, I think, two primary views that could be examined. The first being that Israel as a nation holds no significance to Eschatology (and is used in analogy and metaphor to speak of the universal House of God), the second being that the Nation will receive the promises of God as recounted in the Prophecy of the Old Testament and the New.

The only thing I would suggest to anyone interested in Eschatology, is that before drawing conclusions and then building off those in study, simply study all relevant matters and reserve conclusion to a time when those relevant matters have been calculated. I think both sides make some very convincing arguments to support their view, but this is true of all important issues we look at. For example, Eternal Security is, seemingly, convincingly validated and invalidated by the two opposing groups. But, only one side can be, of course, correct.


God bless.

 

[Van]

It involves numerous aspects. Which are you wanting scripture for?

That Jesus will return?
That He will reign literally?
That there's a literal Tribulation?
That there's a literal man of sin?
The U-turn (as TCassidy mentioned)?
That believers will endure Tribulation?

There are others, but you probably get the idea. Whatchu want?

Thanks JamesL. How about the post trib pre mill timing of the rapture?

 

[Darrell C]

Will someone please provide the scriptural basis for the Historic/Chialist pre-mill view?

Sure, right after you provide the historic premill view of Chiliasm.

I don't mind commenting on what Scripture their views are based on, but don't particularly want to scrabble in the history itself.


God bless.

 

[Yeshua1]

I ask that only those who hold to the Historic(Chialist) pre-mill view answer. I don't want varying views clogging up the thread, please.

1)In this eschatology, is there a literal seven year trib/great-trib pre-1,000 years reign? Or does the church go through tribulation right up until Christ's second coming?

2)What is the view of God dealing with the Jews and church now?

I reserve the right to ask further questions to clear up any misunderstandings on my part. [/QUOTE

That was the position of many of the early CF, and has been held by many, such as by Spurgeon, Boice, and George ladd, J Barton payne etc, so has been a viable option for eschatology for long time within the church.

They would see the great tribulation as being the 7 years, church stays here, protected by god like isreal was in Egypt during the plagues, and Second Coming/Rature is the same Event..
1000 years rule of Jesus over earth. many held to God dealing with the Jews again during that time period...

main differences seem to be no two stages to second coming, and isreal gets its blessing ONLY when their King arrives again!

 

[Van]

Hi Darrell C, I have no interest in debating history, but since many of us hold differing view, it would be useful for someone to explain particular scriptures such that they support a post trib, pre mill rapture.
Otherwise there would seem to be no basis for bible study.

 

[Van]

I came up with this for the Chilast view, the chili cookoff will last 1000 years.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Will someone please provide the scriptural basis for the Historic/Chialist pre-mill view?

See post #1.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Hi Darrell C, I have no interest in debating history, but since many of us hold differing view, it would be useful for someone to explain particular scriptures such that they support a post trib, pre mill rapture.
Otherwise there would seem to be no basis for bible study.

See post #1.

 

[SovereignGrace]

I came up with this for the Chilast view, the chili cookoff will last 1000 years.

See post #1.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Thanks JamesL. How about the post trib pre mill timing of the rapture?

See post #1.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Van, I don't need you in here making rabbit trails. If you are not a Chialist, please butt out. Thanks.

 

[Van]

I do not think Chialist is the same as Chiliast or Chiliasm. BTW, the OP contained no scripture supporting the view.

 

[Darrell C]

Hi Darrell C, I have no interest in debating history, but since many of us hold differing view, it would be useful for someone to explain particular scriptures such that they support a post trib, pre mill rapture.
Otherwise there would seem to be no basis for bible study.

The only thing really relevant to the OP would be the timing of Christ's return in regards to the Millennial Kingdom. Pre, Post, and Mid-Trib believers all fall into that category. The OP has expressed the desire to look at this view which would be contrasted with a Post Millennial view, rather than a Post-Trib view.

If you would like to discuss the very Biblical and very supportable truth that the Pre-Trib Rapture is the most logical position to take, start a thread, state your objections, and I promise you, I will flood that thread with a cascade of the Biblical Presentation for the Pre-Tribulation Rapture.

Fair enough?


God bless.