Featured Historic(Chialist) pre-mill view?

Chiliasm is primarily in regards to the debate as to whether there is a Millennial Kingdom or not, rather than the timing of the Rapture.

The Great White Throne follows the Millennial Kingdom and the passing away of the current universe. This is when the dead (as opposed to those who are alive in Christ, in my view) are cast into the distinctive place of judgment that we see the Lord speak of as Gehenna, as opposed to Hades. Gehenna is everlasting, Hades is not, but emptied at the Great White Throne.


Continued...

 

I believe the term you are looking for is Chiliasm, not Chiliast.


God bless.

 

And you would be in error: the Lake of Fire will not receive any inhabitants until the end of the Tribulation (the Antichrist and False Prophet), at which point there will be a thousand year separation between those two men going into Hell, and the Great White Throne, which is the Biblical appointment for the rest of the Dead.

Until the Great White Throne Judgment...unbelievers go into Hades.


God bless.

 

Not really. If all believers are raptured at the end of the Tribulation...this leaves no physical believers to dwell in the Millennial Kingdom, and stands in opposition to Christ's teaching in Matthew 24-25.

So we would either have to deny a thousand year Kingdom, or say that only unbelievers dwell in the Kingdom, which also stands in direct contradiction of Prophecy.


God bless.

 

Love this guy. Great debater. His book "The King James Only Controversy" is a must read for those who do not understand the controversy.


God bless.

 

Two different events in view, Christ's Return, and the end of the Millennial Kingdom.

When Christ Returns, as seen in Matthew 24-25, and Luke 17, the nations are gathered, unbelievers (Goats) are separated from believers (Sheep), and the unbelievers go into Eternal Punishment, whereas the believers enter into the Kingdom prepared for them from the foundation of the World.

When Christ taught "Except a man be born again he cannot enter the Kingdom of God," He taught within the framework of the understanding provided to Israel at that time. Most of Israel awaited the Messiah and the Kingdom promised, as evidenced by the disciples understanding.

At the end of the thousand years, those in the grave will be physically resurrected and judged, and if they are not in the Book of Life, they are cast into what we call Hell (the Lake of Fire). One question we might consider in regards to this is...when are men written into the Book of Life? My view is that all men are in the Book of Life, and blotted out through rejection of God's will.


God bless.

 

Agreed.

So are the believers glorified then enter into the Millennial Kingdom? Where do those who join with the recently released Satan come from?


God bless.

 

There is absolutely no Scriptural basis for "extermination," or, also popularly known as annihilation.

Especially when we are talking about those under the New Covenant.

No, Percho, this is referring to God's establishing the New Covenant based on the fact it was necessary...because men did not keep the "First Covenant" (Covenant of Law).

It has nothing to do with the judgment of "sinners," or, unbelievers.


God bless.

 

Only if you have constructed upon unscriptural building blocks.

 

This should be very very problematic for anyone who believes that babies are born sinners, that the redeemed will not reproduce in the resurrection, and that all sinners will be exterminated before the millennium

 

The only option left, if the Church is raptured at the end of the Tribulation, is that unbelievers enter into the Kingdom, and they are the ones to produce the offspring that joins with Satan at the end of the Millennial Kingdom.

And if I am not mistaken, you do believe that all unbelievers perish prior to the establishment of the Kingdom, don't you?

I don't take the view that "babies are born sinners," in the sense that they have a disease called sin. I take the view that they are born separated from God and without the Life of Christ, thus, when they grow up, their proclivity is to sin, since they have not the Spirit of God.

I do take the position that the "redeemed are three separate groups in that Age (two, really, but there should be a distinction made between the Church that is raptured and the Tribulation Martyrs who are glorified at the end of the Tribulation):

1. Those who enter into the Kingdom in physical bodies, having been born again during the Tribulation;

2. Those who are resurrected into glorified form, the Tribulation Martyrs;

3. The Church, resurrected prior to the Tribulation, who, I speculate, will like the Tribulation Martyrs have ministries similar to that performed by Angels in this (and prior) Age/s.


Of those three distinct groups only #1 will have the ability to physically reproduce.

Again, if all believers are glorified at the end of the Tribulation, there remains no physical believers left to repopulate the Kingdom from whence the offspring which joins Satan at the end of the Millennial Kingdom come.


Revelation 20:7-9

King James Version (KJV)


7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,

8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog, and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.

9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.



God bless.

 

So show me how I am confused, and men are going into Hell today?

Include gehenna in your study.

Yes, you are correct here, Chiliast was the right word. Chiliasm would have been correct for SGs statement.


God bless.

 

Again, if we had, in the first centuries of the Church, a record of more of the views that were held, we might see the same thing we see today, which is a variety of views. What we can do is take the first century writings and determine what is the proper understanding of what God has given us in His Word, and make the safe assumption that the Bible Writers agreed with that view.

To determine whether Armageddon is literal or figurative, one would have to determine if it coincides with Prophecy in general in a literal or figurative manner. Figurative language employed in regards to an event doesn't mean the event is figurative. I would suggest a look at Ezekiel 39 and Revelation 20.


God bless.

 

When Christ states we will have tribulation while we are in this world He is speaking of our general existence here, as opposed to specific instruction concerning the timing of His return. In my view the strongest argument that the Church will be caught up prior to the Tribulation is that Paul teaches the Church in entirety, both living and dead, are glorified at the same time. The dead in Christ rise, then we that remain are changed also, and both groups meet the Lord in the air. If this takes place at the end of the Tribulation this leaves no-one to populate the Kingdom (from which those who rebel against God descend from), plus, this would leave only the Goats to participate in the Sheep and Goat judgment.

There is a necessity that there be only physically living believers entering into that Kingdom, for a number of reasons.

And there are other reasons, but that is the strongest argument I see.

I am in agreement with Dr. White. The primary source of confusion is that we usually read Scripture as a translation, so for us, the same English word is used for numerous words. "Hell" is used to translate both gehenna and hades, so the distinction in Christ's teaching is not clear to us as it would have been to Greek readers/hearers in the day it was taught/written down.

The Rich man goes to Hades:


Luke 16:22-23

King James Version (KJV)


22 And it came to pass, that the beggar died, and was carried by the angels into Abraham's bosom: the rich man also died, and was buried;

23 And in hell he lift up his eyes, being in torments, and seeth Abraham afar off, and Lazarus in his bosom.


I have given the link for the word "hell," which if you go there you can look at the way it is used in Scripture. This is one of the best methods of understanding concepts in Scripture, by comparing Scripture with Scripture, and how key words are used. Sometimes the usage varies, sometimes it helps establish a set rule. In my view the usage of Hades versus Gehenna helps us to distinguish the context of a passage, such as Hades having a primary reference to physical death (and the consequences) and Gehenna speaking of eternal punishment. When we then take our understanding of the concept of Hades into the Old Testament, where we find an equivalent concept, Sheol, it greatly helps us to understand the concept of death and its consequences.

Here is an example of Gehenna being used:


Matthew 23:33

King James Version (KJV)

33 Ye serpents, ye generation of vipers, how can ye escape the damnation of hell?



"The lake of fire" is the final destination of those who reject God, and many, myself included, believe that when Christ is speaking about Gehenna, He is speaking about the lake of fire. When He is speaking about Hades, He is speaking about that place of the dead seen in the concept of Sheol, though He uses Hades rather than Sheol. Keep in mind that Christ teaches the story (I do not view it as a parable, but an actual event that took place, primarily because proper names of at least one known person is used) of the Rich Man and Lazarus under the period of Law. Abraham does not tell the rich man his brothers can hear the Gospel, but that they can hear the Law and the Prophets, which in my view clarifies that this event takes place under Law, as the very teaching itself did. This is significant if one takes the view, as I do, that the Just did not go into Heaven to be with God when they died, but went to Hades until they were, as the Writer of Hebrews teaches, made "perfect/complete."

One of the ways we know that there is a difference between hades and the lake of fire, and why we would distinguish between the two and come to the conclusion that Hades is a different place than Gehenna is taken primarily from Revelation:


Revelation 20:13-15

King James Version (KJV)


13 And the sea gave up the dead which were in it; and death and hell delivered up the dead which were in them: and they were judged every man according to their works.

14 And death and hell were cast into the lake of fire. This is the second death.

15 And whosoever was not found written in the book of life was cast into the lake of fire.


Here the word Hades is used, and the picture would seem to be that those who are in Hades at this time are delivered up to stand before God, and those not written in the Book of Life are then cast into the lake of fire. This coincides with Christ's teachings concerning eternal punishment:


Mark 9:43-45

King James Version (KJV)


43 And if thy hand offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter into life maimed, than having two hands to go into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:

44 Where their worm dieth not, and the fire is not quenched.

45 And if thy foot offend thee, cut it off: it is better for thee to enter halt into life, than having two feet to be cast into hell, into the fire that never shall be quenched:


So we understand that Christ uses these distinct words in His teaching for a reason, and the general understanding would be that one speaks of that resting place of the dead where both Just and unjust went prior to the Cross, and where now only the lost go (believers now go into the presence of God immediately, according to Paul (2 Corinthians 5)). If you go to the links and see how these words are used it will help you to understand this distinction, which also is a necessary distinction in the Old Testament.

And the Old Testament is a little harder, lol, because there are many more references to Sheol, and rather than two words being used to translate one word, we have one word translated with three. But if we understand that the Old Testament in large part deals with the physical (i.e., death for sin meaning physical death), it helps us to understand when the context is speaking about someone physically dying, rather than a reference to their disposition after physical death.

Hope that helps.


God bless.