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vessels of wrath

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Iconoclast

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Well, once again we see the denial of scripture after scripture. Just read 2 Thessalonians 2:13. It says God chose people for salvation through faith in the truth. Now there are a few translations where the text has been adulterated, but stick with the NASB, NKJV, and LEB.

And folks, post #57 addresses an argument found in one of the links posted. Somehow the link was not off topic, but the rebuttal was. Go figure. :)

still off topic..this is not about 2thess, or mt 23....it is about vessels of wrath-
 

Iconoclast

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from S.Davies;

It is a criticism worthy to be mentioned, even in this solemn place, where I never choose to make a parade of useless learning, that the apostle uses a different form of expression, when speaking of these different sorts of people. The preparation of the vessels of mercy for glory, he ascribes to God, as his work. Hence he uses an active verb, referring expressly to God as the agent—the 'vessels of mercy, whom HE prepared in advance for glory'. But the fitting or preparing the vessels of wrath for destruction, he does not ascribe to God—but intimates that it is their own work. Hence he uses a passive particle—the 'vessels of wrath prepared for destruction'—fitted by their own willful sin and impenitence, during the long-suffering of God towards them, which had a tendency to lead them to repentance.

In support of this teaching we have this kind of verse of which there are several;

36 But I say unto you, That every idle word that men shall speak, they shall give account thereof in the day of judgment.

37 For by thy words thou shalt be justified, and by thy words thou shalt be condemned.

What men say, write, post, are working toward their ultimate destiny. They do in time what will be revealed at the last day-

jn8;
43 Why do ye not understand my speech? even because ye cannot hear my word.

44 Ye are of your father the devil, and the lusts of your father ye will do. He was a murderer from the beginning, and abode not in the truth, because there is no truth in him. When he speaketh a lie, he speaketh of his own: for he is a liar, and the father of it.

45 And because I tell you the truth, ye believe me not.

46 Which of you convinceth me of sin? And if I say the truth, why do ye not believe me?

47 He that is of God heareth God's words: ye therefore hear them not, because ye are not of God

12;
46 I am come a light into the world, that whosoever believeth on me should not abide in darkness.

47 And if any man hear my words, and believe not, I judge him not: for I came not to judge the world, but to save the world.

48 He that rejecteth me, and receiveth not my words, hath one that judgeth him: the word that I have spoken, the same shall judge him in the last day.

For a vessel of wrath even knowing these things beforehand does not keep them from unbelief in words and deeds

rom2;
2 Therefore thou art inexcusable, O man, whosoever thou art that judgest: for wherein thou judgest another, thou condemnest thyself; for thou that judgest doest the same things.

2 But we are sure that the judgment of God is according to truth against them which commit such things.

3 And thinkest thou this, O man, that judgest them which do such things, and doest the same, that thou shalt escape the judgment of God?

4 Or despisest thou the riches of his goodness and forbearance and longsuffering; not knowing that the goodness of God leadeth thee to repentance?

5 But after thy hardness and impenitent heart treasurest up unto thyself wrath against the day of wrath and revelation of the righteous judgment of God;

6 Who will render to every man according to his deeds:

7 To them who by patient continuance in well doing seek for glory and honour and immortality, eternal life:

8 But unto them that are contentious, and do not obey the truth, but obey unrighteousness, indignation and wrath,

9 Tribulation and anguish, upon every soul of man that doeth evil, of the Jew first, and also of the Gentile;

10 But glory, honour, and peace, to every man that worketh good, to the Jew first, and also to the Gentile:

11 For there is no respect of persons with God.
 

Van

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If 2 Thess. 2:13 is off topic why did you, Sir, link to it!!!!!!!!!

Never met a wackadoodle that didn't support imaginary assertions from irrelevant Greek grammar.

Romans 5:19 tells us how we were fitted for destruction.
2 Thessalonians 2:13 tells us how we become vessels of mercy, through faith in the truth. Only agenda driven commentators could miss the obvious.
 

Iconoclast

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If 2 Thess. 2:13 is off topic why did you, Sir, link to it!!!!!!!!!

Never met a wackadoodle that didn't support imaginary assertions from irrelevant Greek grammar.

Romans 5:19 tells us how we were fitted for destruction.
2 Thessalonians 2:13 tells us how we become vessels of mercy, through faith in the truth. Only agenda driven commentators could miss the obvious.
still off topic, do not talk about the greek, or AA, will come and silence you once again...you still have no idea about the verses you offer...
 

Van

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The "taint so" and "you don't know" responses are both discredited and off topic. Claiming verses he linked to are off topic is just another dodge, more shuck and jive from those engaged in obfuscation.
Just read 2 Thessalonians 2:13. It says God chose people for salvation through faith in the truth. Now there are a few translations where the text has been adulterated, but stick with the NASB, NKJV, and LEB.

And folks, post #57 addresses an argument found in one of the links posted. Somehow the link was not off topic, but the rebuttal was. Go figure. attachFull676
 

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Iconoclast

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The "taint so" and "you don't know" responses are both discredited and off topic. Claiming verses he linked to are off topic is just another dodge, more shuck and jive from those engaged in obfuscation.
Just read 2 Thessalonians 2:13. It says God chose people for salvation through faith in the truth. Now there are a few translations where the text has been adulterated, but stick with the NASB, NKJV, and LEB.

And folks, post #57 addresses an argument found in one of the links posted. Somehow the link was not off topic, but the rebuttal was. Go figure. attachFull676
Another day.....another off topic post....address what is offered by the links. No one is interested in your wrong view of election.....that is not the topic.....
 

Van

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Just read post 57. The "off topic" rebuttal is false, misleading, and disingenuous. The claim that link is on topic but the rebuttal is off topic represents unadulterated twaddle. :)

Never met a wackadoodle that didn't support imaginary assertions from irrelevant Greek grammar.

Romans 5:19 tells us how we were fitted for destruction, we were made sinners.
2 Thessalonians 2:13 tells us how we become vessels of mercy, through faith in the truth.
 

Iconoclast

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Just read post 57. The "off topic" rebuttal is false, misleading, and disingenuous. The claim that link is on topic but the rebuttal is off topic represents unadulterated twaddle. :)

Never met a wackadoodle that didn't support imaginary assertions from irrelevant Greek grammar.

Romans 5:19 tells us how we were fitted for destruction, we were made sinners.
2 Thessalonians 2:13 tells us how we become vessels of mercy, through faith in the truth.
Post 57...off topic then and now....
Can you not understand the op?
Show the link you speak of.....in context..
 

Van

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ROFLOL, you posted the link but did not even read it!! Good golly Miss Molly.

Clue for my clueless friend, post 57 came after post 56. :)
 
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Iconoclast

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ROFLOL, you posted the link but did not even read it!! Good golly Miss Molly.

Clue for my clueless friend, post 57 came after post 56. :)


LOL....of course I read the link DR,VANTWADDLE....lol.....but the link uses the 2 thess vs correctly, in the midst of a biblically solid presentation.
!( verses were correctly offered....not just the one that you abuse.

It does not surprise me that you do not understand it, that is why you try and inflict your unbiblical semi -pelagian open theism ideas here.....
No one is buying what you are selling, twaddlemaster....nobody....let's look at this truth as you seem bent on disrupting this thread anyhow. Here is the relevant portion;
WHICH HE PREPARED BEFOREHAND (“He made ready beforehand”) FOR GLORY: a proetoimasen (3SAAI) eis doxan: (1Chronicles 29:18; Luke 1:17; Ephesians 2:3, 4, 5; Colossians 1:12; 1Thessalonians 5:9; 2Thessalonians 2:13,14; 2Timothy 2:21; Titus 3:3, 4, 5, 6, 7; 1Peter 1:2, 3, 4, 5)

Prepared beforehand (4282) (proetoimazo from pró = before + hetoimazo = to make ready...carries idea of willingness and eagerness as well as of readiness) means literally to prepare beforehand, make fit in advance, ordain before, "predestinate" or appoint before/ The only two times this verb is used in the NT, it is used of God's foreordaining for good, referring to glory and to good works.

For we are His workmanship, created in Christ Jesus for good works, which God prepared beforehand, that we should walk in them. (Ephesians 2:10-note; see sermon notes)

For Glory (1391)(doxa)

How did He make them ready beforehand? By bestowing salvation. When did He do this? Paul writes that...

He chose us in Him (Christ) before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and blameless before Him. (Ephesians 1:4-note)(see sermon Chosen in Christ)

And so we learn that before God ever created the heavens and the earth, He prepared some men and women for glory, choosing them in Christ before the foundation of the world. He was not obligated to choose any in Christ!

In mystery of mysteries, God caused us to be created by natural birth and then in His perfect timing He opened our eyes to see the glorious gospel and be re-created by a supernatural birth (in a sense the first was also "supernatural").


You do not get it......the verse is speaking of what God ordained before the world was....not your retarded...crediting our faith during our life here and now. This is imbecilic, stop saying it, or start your own thread. No one but you believes it...nobody.
I do not need to read such error....you have posted it dozens of times...no one believes it.

I would suggest that you have nothing to add to this thread.....
In fact I can only think of 2 or 3 times where you had positive imput.
 

Iconoclast

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Since we are obsessed with turning this into a 2thess 2 thread here we go;
From Grant Richardson;
http://versebyversecommentary.com/about/
“But we are bound to give thanks to God always for you, brethren beloved by the Lord, because God from the beginning chose you for salvation through sanctification by the Spirit and belief in the truth…”
because

The word “because” indicates the incentive for Paul’s thanksgiving: God chose the Thessalonians for salvation. Paul is thankful that God takes the initiative in salvation. His thanksgiving centers on what God does, not man.
God from the beginning [firstfruits]
The word “beginning,” primarily, denotes an offering of firstfruits–”God chose you as firstfruits.” This referred to setting aside the first portion of something and offering it to God before using the rest. The “firstfruits” were the first of a set. The New Testament uses this word for foretaste, pledge and pledge of blessing to come. Our salvation has an eternal date. God chose us from eternity. The origin of our salvation began in eternity past.
chose you
God chose us for Himself. The word “chose” means to take or pick. God picked the Thessalonians, not because of any merit on their part, but because of His sheer, unadulterated grace. We do not initiate salvation. God does all the initiating. He loved the Thessalonians based on His character. He loved them because of who He was, not who they were.
The New Testament uses this Greek word for “chose” only three times in the New Testament (Philippians 1:22; Hebrews 11:25). The other two times, it is a person who does the choosing. This is the only usage whereby God is the chooser. God selects certain people for Himself; they are God’s aristocracy. These are His privileged people.
Principle:
God chose us for a reason known only to Himself.
Application:
Why did God select you? Why are you so special? He could have selected someone smarter and with better qualities of character but He didn’t. He chose you. God chose a rascal like you. As God went over the list of those whom He would choose, He did not bypass you; He picked you out from a number of people.
God never explains why He chooses some and not others. This is especially difficult when we think of some of the scoundrels He does choose. “Why did God spare my life in that accident? He spared me because He wanted to save my soul.” God takes great interest in you. He shows enormous concern for you.
God did not choose us because He knew beforehand that we would receive Christ. He chose us then He foreknew. As human beings, we cannot know that something is going to happen unless we make a choice that it is going to happen.
“…just as He chose us in Him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before Him in love…” (Ephesians 1:4).
”No one can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him; and I will raise him up at the last day” (John 6:44).
 

Iconoclast

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CHS;

Predestination to life is the everlasting purpose of God, whereby (before the foundations of the world were laid) he hast continually decreed by his counsel secret to us, to deliver from curse and damnation those whom he hath chosen in Christ out of mankind, and to bring them by Christ to everlasting salvation, as vessels made to honour. Wherefore they which be endued with so excellent a benefit of God be called according to God's purpose by his Spirit working in due season: they through grace obey the calling: they be justified freely: they be made sons of God by adoption: they be made like the image of his only-begotten Son Jesus Christ: they walk religiously in good works, and at length, by God's mercy, they attain to everlasting felicity."

http://www.spurgeon.org/sermons/0041.php
 

Iconoclast

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R.A.Torrey;
[Verse 13
But we are bound to give thanks alway to God for you, brethren beloved of the Lord, because God hath from the beginning chosen you to salvation through sanctification of the Spirit and belief of the truth:
we
1:3; Romans 1:8; 6:17
beloved
16; Deuteronomy 33:12; 2 Samuel 12:25; *marg:; Jeremiah 31:3; Ezekiel 16:8; Daniel 9:23; 10:11,19; Romans 1:7; Colossians 3:12; 1 John 4:10,19
from
Genesis 1:1; Proverbs 8:23; Isaiah 46:10; John 1:1; 8:44; Hebrews 1:10
chosen
Romans 8:33; 9:11; Ephesians 1:4,5; 1 Thessalonians 1:4; 2 Timothy 1:9; 1 Peter 1:2
through
10,12; Luke 1:75; 1 Peter 1:2-5
belief
John 8:45,46; 14:6; Acts 13:48; 15:9; Galatians 3:1; Ephesians 2:8; Colossians 1:5; 2 Timothy 2:15; 2 Timothy 3:15; James 1:18
/QUOTE]
http://www.studylight.org/commentaries/tsk/2-thessalonians-2.html
 

Iconoclast

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Verse 13

See note on 2 Thessalonians 1:3 for same beginning.

Beloved of the Lord (ηγαπημενοι υπο κυριου — ēgapēmenoi hupo kuriou). Perfect passive participle of αγαπαω — agapaō with υπο — hupo and the ablative as in 1 Thessalonians 1:4, only here κυριου — kuriou instead of τεου — theou the Lord Jesus rather than God the Father. Because that God chose you (οτι ειλατο υμας ο τεος — hoti heilato humas ho theos). First aorist middle indicative of αιρεω — haireō to take, old verb, but uncompounded only in N.T. here, Philemon 1:22; Hebrews 11:25, and here only in sense of choose, that being usually εχαιρεομαι — exaireomai or προοριζω — proorizō From the beginning (απ αρχης — ap' archēs). Probably the correct text (Aleph D L) and not απαρχην — aparchēn (first fruits, B G P), though here alone in Paul‘s writings and a hard reading, the eternal choice or purpose of God (1 Corinthians 2:7; Ephesians 1:4; 2 Timothy 1:9), while απαρχην — aparchēn is a favourite idea with Paul (1 Corinthians 15:20, 1 Corinthians 15:23; 1 Corinthians 16:15; Romans 8:23; Romans 11:16; Romans 16:5). Unto salvation (εις σωτηριαν — eis sōtērian). The ultimate goal, final salvation. In sanctification of the Spirit (εν αγιασμωι πνευματος — en hagiasmōi pneumatos). Subjective genitive πνευματος — pneumatos sanctification wrought by the Holy Spirit. And belief of the truth (και πιστει αλητειας — kai pistei alētheias). Objective genitive αλητειας — alētheias belief in the truth.

Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament
2 Thessalonians 2
 

Van

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1) Pay no attention to how Icon describes un-referenced Greek grammar discussions. my view prevailed in the actual exchange.

2) Now 2 Thessalonians 2:13 is on topic. So each and every "off topic" charge was false, misleading and pure obfuscation.

3) "Personal attacks will not be tolerated. The board has an edit button enabled. We encourage you to use it and edit your own words. Moderators and Administrators will be visibly proactive in dealing with potentially offensive situations. Posts of a violent or threatening nature, either implicitly or explicitly, will be deleted, and the poster's membership revoked. We encourage personal problems with other members be resolved privately via email or personal messaging."
a) "You do not get it.."
b) ".not your retarded..."
c) "This is imbecilic, stop saying it, "

Having lost the debate on its merits, Icon has resorted to insults and personal attacks.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 teaches we were chosen for salvation through faith in the truth. No amount of off topic insults will change the message - unconditional election is bogus.

Romans 5:19 tells us how we were fitted for destruction, we were made sinners.
2 Thessalonians 2:13 tells us how we become vessels of mercy, through faith in the truth.
 

Iconoclast

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1) Pay no attention to how Icon describes un-referenced Greek grammar discussions. my view prevailed in the actual exchange.

2) Now 2 Thessalonians 2:13 is on topic. So each and every "off topic" charge was false, misleading and pure obfuscation.

3) "Personal attacks will not be tolerated. The board has an edit button enabled. We encourage you to use it and edit your own words. Moderators and Administrators will be visibly proactive in dealing with potentially offensive situations. Posts of a violent or threatening nature, either implicitly or explicitly, will be deleted, and the poster's membership revoked. We encourage personal problems with other members be resolved privately via email or personal messaging."
a) "You do not get it.."
b) ".not your retarded..."
c) "This is imbecilic, stop saying it, "

Having lost the debate on its merits, Icon has resorted to insults and personal attacks.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 teaches we were chosen for salvation through faith in the truth. No amount of off topic insults will change the message - unconditional election is bogus.

Romans 5:19 tells us how we were fitted for destruction, we were made sinners.
2 Thessalonians 2:13 tells us how we become vessels of mercy, through faith in the truth.
I am glad you know the rules.....I was not sure what a clueless wackadoodle was.....I did not see it in vines word studies.....
They used 2 Thessalonians for vessels of mercy if you can follow the link.....
You are just trying to disrupt the thread to no avail.
Those in the links are all bible commentators trained in the Greek language ....but you despise them....
You still have not shown you can address the topic.....
 

HankD

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I am glad you know the rules.....I was not sure what a clueless wackadoodle was.....I did not see it in vines word studies.....
They used 2 Thessalonians for vessels of mercy if you can follow the link.....
You are just trying to disrupt the thread to no avail.
Those in the links are all bible commentators trained in the Greek language ....but you despise them....
You still have not shown you can address the topic.....
Salvation was planned established and accomplished in timeless eternity why sweat the "is" the "was" or the "will be" in the here and now?
 
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