Would you please tell me what post that answer is found? If you answered it I must have completely missed it. Apologies in advance if that is the case.
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New Birth Contrasts and Consequences
- Thread starter The Biblicist
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Would you please tell me what post that answer is found? If you answered it I must have completely missed it. Apologies in advance if that is the case.
number 56
Again, I would ask you...what is the position you would see in your fellowship concerning New Birth Contrasts and Consequences?
God bless.
Purely a questioning of Marks understanding of Church. His position, as I understand it, is that a physical earthly church is the only position one can accept as legitimate....... and at this juncture, I disagree.
Well, this is an important issue, and while there is nothing wrong with addressing what we see as error, we must also have a positive presentation of what we feel is sound Doctrine in regards to issues like these.
Here is my thought, EWF: Christ makes it clear no man will enter into the Kingdom of God except he be born from above, born of the Spirit. The question we ask is why is this issue so seldom discussed among believers. The reason, I think, is because so few have invested the time in understanding what Scripture teaches on this. Most will read commentaries, and embrace the teaching of whatever group they are associated with. For this reason we see people embrace numerous explanations and understanding which do not agree at all. But if we maintain that which Scripture teaches, we can eliminate that which it cannot be.
If you stand in a position where perhaps others you fellowship with look to you for guidance in Doctrine, this issue is a must-study issue, because it is one of the key Doctrines that underlies our Christianity, and we should be ready to give an answer in regards to it when asked.
So if you don't mind, would you just give me a short summary of what you understand the New Birth/Regeneration to be.
God bless.
This is hardly an explanation of how you know it is God's will for you to start a church. It may be a good reason for you to witness and share the gospel. It may be a good reason to seek a New Testament church for a missionary, for authority to do the work required to constitute a church but it is hardly a reason to know that it is God's will for you to do that work, since that work requires more than a mere individual who thinks it is God's will.
I would suggest that you simply do what we know is God's will - witness and as people are brought to the Lord, then approach a New Testament church for them to send and work with the group and do that which is necessary to properly constitute it into a church. That may require additional teaching prior to organizing them.
Take a look at the 1689......thats my general stance........but I have much to do today. Sorry I cant be more descriptive.....work, work, work.
You have been formally invited to discuss your off-topic issue in the New Thread designed specifically for off-topic material.
God bless.
Your words, EWF. Consider the scenario that after a fellowship meeting a new participant comes up to you and asks "What does New Birth mean?"
Because time is limited, you have to give a fairly short answer. What would that be?
God bless.
I would also add if you wanted to post something from this confession which is specific to your belief that is fine also. Just a segment at a time, though, with a commentary (can be short) as to how it is relevant to New Birth Contrasts and Consequences.
God bless.
Look in John Chapter 3.....IE a change of heart & submission to God. Lastly Repentance.
who said i am starting a church? I dont want to start a church......thats the last I want to do.
Ok! So, the problem is finding a church to start a mission point in your area? In the mean time, you are providing a gospel witness? Well, if that is the case, you are doing all you can do. The Lord will have to lay it on the heart of a congregation to start the mission point.
Yup!
When you confuse the church with the kingdom of God you end up with a church salvation ecclesiology. You end up repudiating the very essentials of the gospel. You end up perverting the baptism in the Spirit into a means to obtain a new kind of salvation. So yes, the visible congregation of baptized believers is the only kind of church in scripture. Augustine and Luther made the very same error in supporting a universal church theory by ascribing "the field" in Matthew 13 to be the church instead of "the world" as Christ explicitly stated. Hence, the by product of this eisgetical error is the Roman Catholic universal visible church and the Reformed Roman Catholic universal invisible church.
All true Christians are in one family - the family of God. All true Christians are citizens of one kingdom - the Kingdom of God. However, not all true believers are in the church of God.
Furthermore, the doctrine of the universal invisible church repudiates the very essentials of the gospel and perverts the universal fall of man. Just think it through! The universal fall of man consists of two basic problems (1) sin; (2) spiritual separation from God. The ONLY possible solution to sin is justification consisting of remission of sins along with satisfying the righteousness of God. The ONLY possible solution to spiritual separation is spiritual union - period!
Many on this forum do not understand the gravity of spiritual separation. Spiritual separation is separation from God, thus to be WITHOUT GOD. It is to be separated from the LIFE of God, to separated from the HOLINESS of God and to be separated from the LIGHT of God. That is the description given by Paul for the unregenerated state or condition in Eph. 4:18-19.
The universal church theories (both visible and invisible) deny any possible solution to this twofold problem for mankind between Adam and the day of Pentecost. This means that all mankind between Adam and Pentecost were WITHOUT GOD (without the life, light and holiness of God). Let this sink in! It means they cannot possess the fruits of the spirit (faith, joy, love, etc.). It means they cannot be a "friend" of God because they are in a STATE of being WITHOUT GOD that is what spiritual separation from God IS!
Darrell is at least consistent with this church salvation doctrine. He freely admits that no one prior to Pentecost shared the LIFE of Christ, and therefore could not share the RIGHTEOUSNESS of Christ as it is his LIFE wherein the righteousness consists. He freely admits no new birth prior to Pentecost. He freely admits there was no "in Christ" salvation prior to Pentecost. His view is the ONLY consistent view with either universal church theories.
This is what happens when you mix the church with salvation, you are either forced to deny any kind of salvation prior to Pentecost or you are forced to come up with a salvation that is WITHOUT GOD and WITHOUT THE LIFE of Christ, without holiness, without the LIGHT of God because they have the problem of SIN and SPIRITUAL SEPARATION from God.
However, the Bible denies this whole church salvation concept plainly and thoroughly. Abraham not an Post-Pentecost person is set forth as the example of justification by faith "FOR ALL WHO ARE OF FAITH." The SAME gospel is preached before and after with regard to essential substance for justification and spiritual union (Heb. 4:2; Acts 10:43; 26:22-23). Regeneration is necessary BEFORE Pentecost (Jn. 3:3-11; Ezek. 44:6-7; Gal. 4:27; etc.).
However, both the church and Pentecost are 4000 years to late to serve as the solution for either sin or spiritual separation. They are time fixed. The "foundation" of the church is purely New Testament in character (Eph. 2:20; 1 Cor. 12:28). The baptism in the Spirit is fixed to Pentecost. Neither have anything to do with obtaining salvation "in Christ" as Abraham was "in Christ" (Gal. 3:17) and electively "in him" before the foundation of the world as much as you or I (Eph. 1:4).
The reformed roman catholic doctrine of the universal invisible church confuses the church with savlation, it confuses the church and the kingdom and it confuses the church and the family of God.
The church of God as an institution is the visible representation of the kingdom and family of God and the visible administrator of the ordinances within the professing kingdom of God.
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The essence of this thread is to clearly demonstrate that the solution must equal the problem. The problem is (1) sin and (2) spiritual separation. The only possible solution for sin is satisfaction of the penalty and righteous standard of God's law (Justification) and there can be none other satisfaction than the Person and redemptive work of Christ. Spiritual separation means a person is in a STATE that is WITHOUT GOD, thus without the life, light and holiness of God. That is precisely what Paul describes as the unregenerate state (Eph. 4:18-19). If one is without LIFE they are DEAD spiritually. If one is without LIGHT they are in DARKNESS and if one is without Holiness they are DEPRAVED. Regeneration is a creative act of God that provides LIFE (Eph. 2:1,5). that provides LIGHT (2 Cor. 4:6) and that provides true righteousness (Eph. 4:24; Col. 3:10) and cleansing away defilement (Tit. 3:5) and thus regeneration is bringing a sinner into SPIRITUAL UNION with God. Thus regeneration and justification are the ONLY POSSIBLE solutions for (1) Sin and (2) Spiritual separation.
Finally, both justification and spiritual union are IMPOSSIBLE apart from indwelling and legal union with Christ. The spiritual separation takes place INTERNALLY within the sinner and therefore the UNION must occur INTERNALLY within the sinner, and therefore that equals indwelling or else there is no "union." This is precisely why Paul classifies all human beings into two possible categories "in the flesh" and "in the Spirit" and "in the Spirit" he demands is equal to INDWELLING and all who are not indwelt are "none of his" - Rom. 8:8-9. It is by this spiritual union that God IMPARTS the life, holiness and light of God.
Justification (satisfying the laws penalty of sin and its righteous standard) is something a sinner cannot possibly do through or in his own body because he has already failed and been condemned. It can only be obtained by IMPUTATION or by an alien righteousness provided and attained OUTSIDE of the sinners being and body. Hence, imputation demands LEGAL UNION between the sinner and Christ, as Christ is the only possible human being capable of representing man, as he alone among men is WITHOUT SIN and whose life is a fit sacrifice IN THE PLACE of fallen man.
Significantly, the proper satisfaction for the penal and righteous demands of the Law must be a WHOLE LIFE from birth to death WITHOUT SPOT OR BLEMISH (type of absolute sinlessness). Hence, the satisfaction can be procurred IN THE BODY of the sinner. It cannot be procurred simply by forgiveness for it is not possible that any sinnner can satisfy the demands of the law for a WHOLE LIFE of sinlessness. Hence, it can only be procurred by IMPUTATION alone through faith.
My point being that the only possible solution to (1) sin and (2) spiritual separation is "IN CHRIST" as there can be no kind of salvation for any sinner OUTSIDE Christ at ANY TIME. Those outside of Christ at any time exist in a SPIRITUALLY SEPARATED STATE FROM GOD - thus WITHOUT GOD, thus WITHOUT life, thus WITHOUT LIGHT, thus WITHOUT HOLINESS and therefore cannot be a friend of God or be claimed by God. Neither are they capable of manifesting any fruit that characterizes God (joy, peace, love, longsuffering, patience, etc.) as these are the fruit of SPIRITUAL UNION and impossible to manifest in a state of SPIRITUAL SEPARATION from God.
Therefore, if anyone between Genesis and Acts 2:1 existed in a state of fellowship with God it is only possible due to justification by faith (Rom. 4:9-11) and regeneration or spiritual union with God - period!
Finally, this true state of salvation (justification/regeneration) repudiates the universal visible and universal invisible church theories simply because the church and the baptism in the Spirit (which is their means of inclusion in this kind of church) are 4000 years too late to be related to the Biblical solution of salvation "in Christ." The "foundation" of the church, which is it point of origin is New Testament in origin and thus 4000 years too late to be part of the Biblical solution to sin and spiritual separation. The baptism in the Spirit is time fixed to Pentecost and therefore 4000 years too late to be part of "in Christ" (justification/regeneration) salvation. These are both Roman Catholic doctrines of church salvation. Both have their point of origin with Augustine and his mishandling the term "field" in the parable of the tares. Both of them interpret "the field" to be the church instead of what Christ explicity said was to be interpreted as "the world." Hence, this misinterpretation necessarily results in a "universal" church. Both confuse the kingdom of God, the professing kingdom of God with the church and thus what necessarily results by this confusion is the church salvation theory.
Every single passage dealing with "the church" is found in a context of sanctification NEVER of salvation. Water baptized believers are "in Christ" by REPRESENTATION through church membership which is not to be confused with either "in Christ" LEGALLY by justification (position) or "in Christ" spiritually by regeneration (spiritual union). None of the above are to confused with being "in Christ" experientially by walking "in him" (Col. 2:6). It is this utter confusion of these different aspects that is the mother of such heresies as the universal visible and universal invisible church theories which are nothing but veiled attacks on the gospel of Christ and true Biblical salvation.
Finally, both justification and spiritual union are IMPOSSIBLE apart from indwelling and legal union with Christ. The spiritual separation takes place INTERNALLY within the sinner and therefore the UNION must occur INTERNALLY within the sinner, and therefore that equals indwelling or else there is no "union." This is precisely why Paul classifies all human beings into two possible categories "in the flesh" and "in the Spirit" and "in the Spirit" he demands is equal to INDWELLING and all who are not indwelt are "none of his" - Rom. 8:8-9. It is by this spiritual union that God IMPARTS the life, holiness and light of God.
Justification (satisfying the laws penalty of sin and its righteous standard) is something a sinner cannot possibly do through or in his own body because he has already failed and been condemned. It can only be obtained by IMPUTATION or by an alien righteousness provided and attained OUTSIDE of the sinners being and body. Hence, imputation demands LEGAL UNION between the sinner and Christ, as Christ is the only possible human being capable of representing man, as he alone among men is WITHOUT SIN and whose life is a fit sacrifice IN THE PLACE of fallen man.
Significantly, the proper satisfaction for the penal and righteous demands of the Law must be a WHOLE LIFE from birth to death WITHOUT SPOT OR BLEMISH (type of absolute sinlessness). Hence, the satisfaction can be procurred IN THE BODY of the sinner. It cannot be procurred simply by forgiveness for it is not possible that any sinnner can satisfy the demands of the law for a WHOLE LIFE of sinlessness. Hence, it can only be procurred by IMPUTATION alone through faith.
My point being that the only possible solution to (1) sin and (2) spiritual separation is "IN CHRIST" as there can be no kind of salvation for any sinner OUTSIDE Christ at ANY TIME. Those outside of Christ at any time exist in a SPIRITUALLY SEPARATED STATE FROM GOD - thus WITHOUT GOD, thus WITHOUT life, thus WITHOUT LIGHT, thus WITHOUT HOLINESS and therefore cannot be a friend of God or be claimed by God. Neither are they capable of manifesting any fruit that characterizes God (joy, peace, love, longsuffering, patience, etc.) as these are the fruit of SPIRITUAL UNION and impossible to manifest in a state of SPIRITUAL SEPARATION from God.
Therefore, if anyone between Genesis and Acts 2:1 existed in a state of fellowship with God it is only possible due to justification by faith (Rom. 4:9-11) and regeneration or spiritual union with God - period!
Finally, this true state of salvation (justification/regeneration) repudiates the universal visible and universal invisible church theories simply because the church and the baptism in the Spirit (which is their means of inclusion in this kind of church) are 4000 years too late to be related to the Biblical solution of salvation "in Christ." The "foundation" of the church, which is it point of origin is New Testament in origin and thus 4000 years too late to be part of the Biblical solution to sin and spiritual separation. The baptism in the Spirit is time fixed to Pentecost and therefore 4000 years too late to be part of "in Christ" (justification/regeneration) salvation. These are both Roman Catholic doctrines of church salvation. Both have their point of origin with Augustine and his mishandling the term "field" in the parable of the tares. Both of them interpret "the field" to be the church instead of what Christ explicity said was to be interpreted as "the world." Hence, this misinterpretation necessarily results in a "universal" church. Both confuse the kingdom of God, the professing kingdom of God with the church and thus what necessarily results by this confusion is the church salvation theory.
Every single passage dealing with "the church" is found in a context of sanctification NEVER of salvation. Water baptized believers are "in Christ" by REPRESENTATION through church membership which is not to be confused with either "in Christ" LEGALLY by justification (position) or "in Christ" spiritually by regeneration (spiritual union). None of the above are to confused with being "in Christ" experientially by walking "in him" (Col. 2:6). It is this utter confusion of these different aspects that is the mother of such heresies as the universal visible and universal invisible church theories which are nothing but veiled attacks on the gospel of Christ and true Biblical salvation.
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