vessels of wrath

[JonC]

Hi JonC, I gave you five verses, why run away from addressing what scripture says.

I gave you the one passage that Jesus was referring to. Why don't we stay there for the moment, brother. If we jump all around I'm just worried that we will take too much out of context.

Or, if you just want to look at a couple of verses, let's take one at a time and see what is really taught. I'll follow your lead - either talk about the verse Jesus pointing to in John 12 or another that you 'd like to discuss. But let's deal honestly with the passages and not superficially go from one to another in order to support what ever doctrine we suppose to be correct.

 

[Van]

The topic is the meaning of draw. Below are 4 verses that express the idea of attract. I am not changing the subject. High and lifted up may be an allusion to Numbers, but the idea is explained in John 12:33 so no need to go there.

See these OT verses, Judges 20:32, and Jeremiah 31:3 for the idea embodied in John 6:44 and John 12:32.

 

[Iconoclast]

The topic is the meaning of draw. Below are 4 verses that express the idea of attract. I am not changing the subject. High and lifted up may be an allusion to Numbers, but the idea is explained in John 12:33 so no need to go there.

See these OT verses, Judges 20:32, and Jeremiah 31:3 for the idea embodied in John 6:44 and John 12:32.

So how exactly are the vessels of Wrath being drawn? You suggest this is now the topic....
Also answer what and when is this placing you invented taking place.

 

[JonC]

The topic is the meaning of draw. Below are 4 verses that express the idea of attract. I am not changing the subject. High and lifted up may be an allusion to Numbers, but the idea is explained in John 12:33 so no need to go there.

See these OT verses, Judges 20:32, and Jeremiah 31:3 for the idea embodied in John 6:44 and John 12:32.

Ok. Let's look at your example in John 12. One step at a time, brother.

In context to the passage (not just taking one verse out of context to suit one’s needs), those people in the temple court did not know what to make of the sound they had heard. A voice had come from heaven – “I have glorified it, and I will glorify it again”. Jesus answered that this voice had come for their sake. “Now is the judgment of this world; now will the ruler of this world be cast out. And I [Jesus], when I am lifted up from the earth, will draw all people to myself. ”Now, why did Jesus say this? To show by what kind of death he was going to die.

The “lifting up” of the Son of Man is primarily His crucifixion (see John 3:14 and 8:28 as well). His being “lifted up” is also the introduction to His re-ascent into glory which He had before the foundation of the earth (see 17:5, 24). And when He is lifted up He will draw unto Himself the Gentiles as well as the Jews. This has already been touched on in John 10 with the “other sheep” who are to be brought to join those whom the Shepheard has called out from Israel (John 10:16) and in the “children of God who are scattered abroad” who Jesus by his death will “gather into one” (11:52).

You would have been better off to start with Scripture, Van, and develop your views from there than to start with your views and skip around for supporting passages. John 12:33 offers absolutely no support that the Father "drawing" men means "attracting" people.

And this is not even touching on the verse to which Jesus alluded (the one you dismissed so readily). We don't need to go there to denounce your position, but I think that you would benefit from looking at that passage as well. When a verse in the OT is referenced in the New, there is often a reason.

 

[Van]

I see no need to continue JonC. All this, I am skipping around, looking for verses to support my position, my superficial understanding, etc are simply ad hominem arguments, fallacies that are without merit.
John 12:33 explains what lifted up meant, so no need to go to Numbers.

As for the "draw all [kinds of] people dodge, anyone can add or omit to alter scripture. Bobby Jones used to say "in our game we play it where it lays."
Here was your position:

4. I believe that God draws men to Himself, and that men once drawn cannot but believe (e.g., God hardened Pharaoh’s heart because otherwise seeing he would believe).

Then you said:

I do not use the word to mean “compel”

Lets leave it that many scholars believe as I do, and your view is bogus because all people are not compelled to believe when they behold Jesus, high and lifted up.

 

[Van]

Hi Icon, not to put too fine a point on it, but each and every person drawn is a vessel of wrath, by nature children of wrath. Ephesians 2:1-3.

 

[JonC]

I see no need to continue JonC. All this, I am skipping around, looking for verses to support my position, my superficial understanding, etc are simply ad hominem arguments, fallacies that are without merit.
John 12:33 explains what lifted up meant, so no need to go to Numbers.

As for the "draw all [kinds of] people dodge, anyone can add or omit to alter scripture. Bobby Jones used to say "in our game we play it where it lays."
Here was your position:
Then you said:

Lets leave it that many scholars believe as I do, and your view is bogus because all people are not compelled to believe when they behold Jesus, high and lifted up.

That's what I thought. Basically every time you are challenged to defend one passage you offer by taking it in context with Scripture your reply is "I see no need to continue". This is what...the third time you've done this? Fourth? It gets old, Van.

My position is that God draws men to himself, and men drawn cannot but believe. And I do not mean this as "compel". Men are not dragged unwillingly, they are drawn.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Hi Icon, not to put too fine a point on it, but each and every person drawn is a vessel of wrath, by nature children of wrath. Ephesians 2:1-3.

The vessels of wrath are never drawn. More confusion about Romans 9. The vessels of wrath are vessels of wrath. The vessels of mercy are the vessels of mercy. The vessels of mercy do have the wrath of God abiding upon them, but it is by His mercy that His wrath was removed by God. But one does not morph from a vessel of wrath to a vessel of mercy and vice versa.

 

[Van]

Hi JonC, your view continues to require all people to be compelled to believe.

My view was never challenged, it was skirted. Draw means attract at John 6:44, and 12:32, just as the lexicons tell us.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 teaches God chooses people for salvation through faith in the truth, thus unconditional election is unbiblical.

Everyone that comes to Christ was drawn. Not everyone drawn comes to Christ.

 

[Van]

Hi SG, what part of Ephesians 2:1-3 do you not understand. Every single person drawn was a vessel of wrath, fitted for destruction. No exceptions.

 

[Iconoclast]

Hi SG, what part of Ephesians 2:1-3 do you not understand. Every single person drawn was a vessel of wrath, fitted for destruction. No exceptions.

SG understood just fine. He just does not deny the biblical God who elects vessels of mercy, and ordains whatsoever comes to pass.....perhaps that is why you were perplexed.

 

[Van]

Folks, just read Ephesians 2:1-3 and judge whether every single person starts out life as a vessel of wrath.

How did we become sinners, vessels of wrath? Romans 5:19
How did we become saints, vessels of mercy? 1 Peter 2:9-10.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Folks, just read Ephesians 2:1-3 and judge whether every single person starts out life as a vessel of wrath.

How did we become sinners, vessels of wrath? Romans 5:19
How did we become saints, vessels of mercy? 1 Peter 2:9-10.

Again, Romans 9 speaks of vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy. These two sets of ppl do not encase all of humanity into one wad and those who are saved go from wrath to mercy as you are purporting. It is like the sheep and goats. One does not morph from a goat to a sheep. One also does not morph from a vessel of wrath to a vessel of mercy.

 

[JonC]

Hi JonC, your view continues to require all people to be compelled to believe.

My view was never challenged, it was skirted. Draw means attract at John 6:44, and 12:32, just as the lexicons tell us.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 teaches God chooses people for salvation through faith in the truth, thus unconditional election is unbiblical.

Everyone that comes to Christ was drawn. Not everyone drawn comes to Christ.

Again, brother, you have misunderstood my statement. When I said that I believe all men who are drawn are saved, and that none are "compelled". What I meant was that all who are drawn are saved and that none are compelled. So no, my view does not require that men be compelled to believe (taking compel to mean "to force or oblige someone to do something."

You are confusing this "drawing" with a general call when others here are speaking of an effectual call (i.e., God saving people). There is a since whereby all are called (you could say "drawn"), but not all are saved. But when the Shepherd calls, the sheep hears His voice.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Again, brother, you have misunderstood my statement. When I said that I believe all men who are drawn are saved, and that none are "compelled". What I meant was that all who are drawn are saved and that none are compelled. So no, my view does not require that men be compelled to believe (taking compel to mean "to force or oblige someone to do something."

You are confusing this "drawing" with a general call when others here are speaking of an effectual call (i.e., God saving people). There is a since whereby all are called (you could say "drawn"), but not all are saved. But when the Shepherd calls, the sheep hears His voice.

DING DING DING DING DING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

[Van]

Again, brother, you have misunderstood my statement. When I said that I believe all men who are drawn are saved, and that none are "compelled". What I meant was that all who are drawn are saved and that none are compelled. So no, my view does not require that men be compelled to believe (taking compel to mean "to force or oblige someone to do something."

You are confusing this "drawing" with a general call when others here are speaking of an effectual call (i.e., God saving people). There is a since whereby all are called (you could say "drawn"), but not all are saved. But when the Shepherd calls, the sheep hears His voice.

1) I am not confusing anything, you are playing that ol word game, not compelled to believe but compelled to willingly believe. Fiddlesticks.

2) Rather than address what the word "draw" means, you instead sought to rewrite all people to mean all kinds of people (Jews and Gentiles). This is one of the most often used dodges from the Cal playbook.

3) No verse or passage says all who are drawn are saved. This assertion is unbiblical. While all people who understand Christ suffered and died for them are drawn, some still turn away and go their own way. The second and third soils of Matthew 13 were drawn, attracted but not compelled, and they were not saved. The men of Matthew 23:13 were attracted to God but were turned away by false teachers.

4) When God transfers a person into Christ, they become His sheep, but not before. The lost are simply sheep without a Shepherd.

5) Doctrines that require redefining words (draw) and rewriting scripture (John 12:32) are unsound.

 

[JonC]

1) I am not confusing anything, you are playing that ol word game, not compelled to believe but compelled to willingly believe. Fiddlesticks.

2) Rather than address what the word "draw" means, you instead sought to rewrite all people to mean all kinds of people (Jews and Gentiles). This is one of the most often used dodges from the Cal playbook.

3) No verse or passage says all who are drawn are saved. This assertion is unbiblical. While all people who understand Christ suffered and died for them are drawn, some still turn away and go their own way. The second and third soils of Matthew 13 were drawn, attracted but not compelled, and they were not saved. The men of Matthew 23:13 were attracted to God but were turned away by false teachers.

4) When God transfers a person into Christ, they become His sheep, but not before. The lost are simply sheep without a Shepherd.

5) Doctrines that require redefining words (draw) and rewriting scripture (John 12:32) are unsound.

1. No, Van. You are extraordinarily confused. The reason I say this is that you are arguing against me regarding what I believe (not defending your view, but trying to correct my understanding of my own view). This is not a “word game”. I do not believe that men are “compelled” to believe. Telling someone else what they believe is a fool’s errand. Don’t be so foolish, brother.

2. No one can come to Christ unless the Father draws him. This is not the same as saying Christ “attracts” all men. It is effective, for Christ will raise him up on the last day. Everyone who has heard and learned from the Father comes to Christ. But not everyone comes to Christ. This is the “drawing” of which I speak.

3. John 6 has those who are drawn as coming to Christ, as being raised up on the last day, and as being taught by God.

4. I have to side with Icon here…you are such a stickler for the English words and meanings, please provide the verse that says God transfers lost people into Christ.

5. Yes, your doctrine is a bit unsound. But there's still hope...with God nothing is impossible.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Not a bit unsound Jon....minus the 'unsound' and you've nailed it...

 

[Van]

Folks, it was suggested my repetitive suggestion we end discussion because we are generating more heat than light was somehow inappropriate. The unity of the body is something all Christians are required to nurture by wise behavior. We are to turn away from divisive people. And we are to keep ourselves in check.

 

[Van]

Hi JonC, I have absolutely no interest in playing your word games. Draw does not mean what you say it means. When used metaphorically as in John 6:44 and John 12:32 it means attract. It does not mean irresistible grace. Not all people drawn (attracted) come to Jesus. Matthew 23:13, and the second and third soils of Matthew 13.

The fallacy you are pushing is of the "all dogs are mammals" therefore "all mammals are dogs" sort. No one can come to Jesus unless drawn, but all drawn do not come to Jesus.

By the numbers folks,

1) Every person is conceived in iniquity, we were all made sinners, thus vessels of wrath, thus had not received mercy, thus had not been chosen for salvation. Ephesians 2:1-3.

2) God calls people through the gospel, and those exposed to the gospel are therefore drawn by the lovingkindness of God. Jeremiah 31:3.

3) Therefore, since the gospel includes the suffering and crucification of Christ, for all mankind, everyone exposed is drawn to Christ.

4) How did we become sinners, vessels of wrath? Romans 5:19
How did we become saints, vessels of mercy? 1 Peter 2:9-10.