Featured vessels of wrath

The topic is the meaning of draw. Below are 4 verses that express the idea of attract. I am not changing the subject. High and lifted up may be an allusion to Numbers, but the idea is explained in John 12:33 so no need to go there.

See these OT verses, Judges 20:32, and Jeremiah 31:3 for the idea embodied in John 6:44 and John 12:32.

 

I see no need to continue JonC. All this, I am skipping around, looking for verses to support my position, my superficial understanding, etc are simply ad hominem arguments, fallacies that are without merit.
John 12:33 explains what lifted up meant, so no need to go to Numbers.

As for the "draw all [kinds of] people dodge, anyone can add or omit to alter scripture. Bobby Jones used to say "in our game we play it where it lays."
Here was your position:

Then you said:

Lets leave it that many scholars believe as I do, and your view is bogus because all people are not compelled to believe when they behold Jesus, high and lifted up.

 

Hi Icon, not to put too fine a point on it, but each and every person drawn is a vessel of wrath, by nature children of wrath. Ephesians 2:1-3.

 

The vessels of wrath are never drawn. More confusion about Romans 9. The vessels of wrath are vessels of wrath. The vessels of mercy are the vessels of mercy. The vessels of mercy do have the wrath of God abiding upon them, but it is by His mercy that His wrath was removed by God. But one does not morph from a vessel of wrath to a vessel of mercy and vice versa.

 

Hi JonC, your view continues to require all people to be compelled to believe.

My view was never challenged, it was skirted. Draw means attract at John 6:44, and 12:32, just as the lexicons tell us.

2 Thessalonians 2:13 teaches God chooses people for salvation through faith in the truth, thus unconditional election is unbiblical.

Everyone that comes to Christ was drawn. Not everyone drawn comes to Christ.

 

Hi SG, what part of Ephesians 2:1-3 do you not understand. Every single person drawn was a vessel of wrath, fitted for destruction. No exceptions.

 

Folks, just read Ephesians 2:1-3 and judge whether every single person starts out life as a vessel of wrath.

How did we become sinners, vessels of wrath? Romans 5:19
How did we become saints, vessels of mercy? 1 Peter 2:9-10.

 

Again, Romans 9 speaks of vessels of wrath and vessels of mercy. These two sets of ppl do not encase all of humanity into one wad and those who are saved go from wrath to mercy as you are purporting. It is like the sheep and goats. One does not morph from a goat to a sheep. One also does not morph from a vessel of wrath to a vessel of mercy.

 

DING DING DING DING DING!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

 

1) I am not confusing anything, you are playing that ol word game, not compelled to believe but compelled to willingly believe. Fiddlesticks.

2) Rather than address what the word "draw" means, you instead sought to rewrite all people to mean all kinds of people (Jews and Gentiles). This is one of the most often used dodges from the Cal playbook.

3) No verse or passage says all who are drawn are saved. This assertion is unbiblical. While all people who understand Christ suffered and died for them are drawn, some still turn away and go their own way. The second and third soils of Matthew 13 were drawn, attracted but not compelled, and they were not saved. The men of Matthew 23:13 were attracted to God but were turned away by false teachers.

4) When God transfers a person into Christ, they become His sheep, but not before. The lost are simply sheep without a Shepherd.

5) Doctrines that require redefining words (draw) and rewriting scripture (John 12:32) are unsound.

 

Not a bit unsound Jon....minus the 'unsound' and you've nailed it...

 

Folks, it was suggested my repetitive suggestion we end discussion because we are generating more heat than light was somehow inappropriate. The unity of the body is something all Christians are required to nurture by wise behavior. We are to turn away from divisive people. And we are to keep ourselves in check.

 

Hi JonC, I have absolutely no interest in playing your word games. Draw does not mean what you say it means. When used metaphorically as in John 6:44 and John 12:32 it means attract. It does not mean irresistible grace. Not all people drawn (attracted) come to Jesus. Matthew 23:13, and the second and third soils of Matthew 13.

The fallacy you are pushing is of the "all dogs are mammals" therefore "all mammals are dogs" sort. No one can come to Jesus unless drawn, but all drawn do not come to Jesus.

By the numbers folks,

1) Every person is conceived in iniquity, we were all made sinners, thus vessels of wrath, thus had not received mercy, thus had not been chosen for salvation. Ephesians 2:1-3.

2) God calls people through the gospel, and those exposed to the gospel are therefore drawn by the lovingkindness of God. Jeremiah 31:3.

3) Therefore, since the gospel includes the suffering and crucification of Christ, for all mankind, everyone exposed is drawn to Christ.

4) How did we become sinners, vessels of wrath? Romans 5:19
How did we become saints, vessels of mercy? 1 Peter 2:9-10.