Decretive/Permissive Will Or Both?

[Darrell C]

What is the relationship of the sin of the devil to the sin of Adam that brought the death to all men?

I think you do a good job drawing the relationship, as well as pointing out the distinction between Eve being deceived and Adam...sinning.

Sin is sin. Satan's sin contributed to Adam's sin. Neither is worse than the other.

The serpent deceived Eve. What do you believe that deception of Eve had to do with Adam being drawn away in lust and temptation bringing forth to the both of them, being dead in trespass and sin? What was the lust of Adam?

Maybe it was the love of his wife. Who knows. We are not told specifically.

All we need to know is Adam disobeyed the direct revelation of God. This brought about a separation between God and man.

I notice you have this connected to your posts.

To the law and to the testimony: if they speak not according to this word, it is because there is no light in them. - Isa. 8:20

What is the light that is not in them? If light is not in them, what is in them?

The "light" is the revelation" provided by God. All those who teach that which is contrary to the revelation of God evidence that the truth is not in them.

And the contrast to "light" which is truth is...darkness. That is, the absence of truth.

Now here is something interesting to consider: man is said to sit in darkness despite having the Word of God and the revelation God has provided them.

Why?

It seems very simple, because man has turned from the truth. Romans 1-2 speak about this issue.


God bless.

 

[percho]

Again, who is this "we" and "us" you keep referring to?

I do not take a position that sin did not exist prior to the Fall.




How can you say Adam followed Satan into sin if you believe...




Make up your mind, WE want to know what it is you actually believe. Do you mind accommodating US on that?




Why do you have me as saying this and why is the link to the other thread?

Don't you worry, my friend, I am not finished with your errors concerning the Baptism with the Holy Ghost.




You don't really expect US to believe that someone that can contradict the Word of Christ and say that the Comforter was already present in the world when Christ states clearly He cannot come until He returns to Heaven really believes the Word of God is the final Authority, do you?

WE are having a hard time with that one.

Now I would recommend you fix the quotes, so that the dishonesty with which you participate in discussions doesn't have such a glaring example of deceit.

And you might try to actually answer Percho's question, rather than worrying I will ignore you, lol.

I'll get to you, don't worry. I told you, I really do care about you, and I will give you the attention you need.


God bless.

Methinks he quoted you instead of myself to my posts.

Yes Romans 1:25.

Did not Eve and Adam worship and serve the creation (the serpent) rather than God? Was, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: the darkness they turned to away from the light, the truth of the Word of God? So divided in Gen. 1:4?

Is that not the very same darkness and light of Genesis 1:2-5? Compare the words in the LXX for darkness and light with the same in John 1.

That is the reason I believe Lucifer was already the devil in Genesis 1:2. Had already caused something that had not been created in vain (tohuw) the earth to become tohuw (without form) and void.

Hebrews 2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.

Was the foundation of the world spoken of beginning in Gen 1:3 - 31 subjected to the angels and demons? See Daniel 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

Here is a thought. Before the foundation of the world spoken of above was Abram's name going to be changed to Abraham the father of nations?

 

[Darrell C]

Methinks he quoted you instead of myself to my posts.

Methinks it was intentional. But I don't know. Maybe it is possible to inadvertently put a link to another thread when quoting someone.

Yes Romans 1:25.

Did not Eve and Adam worship and serve the creation (the serpent) rather than God? Was, that old serpent, called the Devil, and Satan, which deceiveth the whole world: the darkness they turned to away from the light, the truth of the Word of God? So divided in Gen. 1:4?

I don't see it that way. Remember...Eve was deceived. Doesn't excuse her, but, there is not, in my view, a concept that Eve would be credited with false worship. Rather, disobedience, just as Adam is. In Romans I think we have more of a concept of creating idols and worshiping them rather than God.

Is that not the very same darkness and light of Genesis 1:2-5? Compare the words in the LXX for darkness and light with the same in John 1.

I don't see that either, though I will say there are many great men of God who have. Those that embrace the Gap Restoration Theory believe that there was a calamitous event which brought the world into a calamitous state. But if that is the case, then whoever dwelt there existed apart from light, which is created at this time. If there were a pre-exisitng condition, light and dark would not seem to be relevant. We see God create light and divide it from darkness, then, as an added commentary for us to consider, we are told that at this time the sun, moon, and stars are created, which has its correlation, not to the concepts of truth and what is not true, or good and evil, but to physical light.

Consider the Eternal State:


Revelation 21:23

King James Version (KJV)

23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.


We know His presence is glorious, but here again we see a direct reference to the sun and the moon. Just as there was light in the beginning prior to the sun, moon, and stars being created, even so in the Eternal State, in the Holy City, there will be light.

That is the reason I believe Lucifer was already the devil in Genesis 1:2. Had already caused something that had not been created in vain (tohuw) the earth to become tohuw (without form) and void.

I too believe Lucifer is Satan, and that he had already fallen prior to the creation of this universe. That he was cast out of Heaven doesn't necessitate he was cast into this universe, and we can think that unlikely due to the references to Hades, Hell, and Tartarus, which few try to argue are part of the physical Universe, but rather spiritual domains.

Gap Restoration Theorists rely heavily on making...

Isaiah 45:18
For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the Lord; and there is none else.


...mean that this conflicts with the Genesis account. But that's the purpose of the Genesis account, to give us a record of how and why God created this universe.

God, not Satan, is the One Who accomplishes the following:


Jeremiah 4:22-28

King James Version (KJV)

22 For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.

23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.

25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.

26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the Lord, and by his fierce anger.

27 For thus hath the Lord said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.

28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black; because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.



In view is God's judgment on the already existing Israel.

Hebrews 2:5 For unto the angels hath he not put in subjection the world to come, whereof we speak.

In view is "the world to come," not the world as it was created. I view this as having a near fulfillment of the Millennial Kingdom, and then ultimately to the New heavens and earth, the Eternal State.

Was the foundation of the world spoken of beginning in Gen 1:3 - 31 subjected to the angels and demons?

There is nothing in the Creation account that might lead us to believe it was. Subject to, perhaps, as we see in Satan's corrupting influence, bit not "subjected to," or, the idea that God gave the earth over to the demons, and that man was, or is, at their mercy.

God gave man domain, and even though he fell, man has always been at God's mercy, not Satan's.

See Daniel 10:13 But the prince of the kingdom of Persia withstood me one and twenty days: but, lo, Michael, one of the chief princes, came to help me; and I remained there with the kings of Persia.

And aren't you glad we worship the King? lol

Satan and his cohorts might struggle with Angels, but they bow to the King. Even in His human form prior to His death...they exceedingly feared, and thought the execution of their judgment was at hand (Matthew 8:29).

Here is a thought. Before the foundation of the world spoken of above was Abram's name going to be changed to Abraham the father of nations?

I think that is pretty much a given. The Plan of Redemption was known to God before He formed the World. He knew every member of the bloodline Christ would come through before there was the first man.


God bless.

 

[percho]

Methinks it was intentional. But I don't know. Maybe it is possible to inadvertently put a link to another thread when quoting someone.





I don't see it that way. Remember...Eve was deceived. Doesn't excuse her, but, there is not, in my view, a concept that Eve would be credited with false worship. Rather, disobedience, just as Adam is. In Romans I think we have more of a concept of creating idols and worshiping them rather than God.



I don't see that either, though I will say there are many great men of God who have. Those that embrace the Gap Restoration Theory believe that there was a calamitous event which brought the world into a calamitous state. But if that is the case, then whoever dwelt there existed apart from light, which is created at this time. If there were a pre-exisitng condition, light and dark would not seem to be relevant. We see God create light and divide it from darkness, then, as an added commentary for us to consider, we are told that at this time the sun, moon, and stars are created, which has its correlation, not to the concepts of truth and what is not true, or good and evil, but to physical light.

Consider the Eternal State:


Revelation 21:23

King James Version (KJV)

23 And the city had no need of the sun, neither of the moon, to shine in it: for the glory of God did lighten it, and the Lamb is the light thereof.


We know His presence is glorious, but here again we see a direct reference to the sun and the moon. Just as there was light in the beginning prior to the sun, moon, and stars being created, even so in the Eternal State, in the Holy City, there will be light.



I too believe Lucifer is Satan, and that he had already fallen prior to the creation of this universe. That he was cast out of Heaven doesn't necessitate he was cast into this universe, and we can think that unlikely due to the references to Hades, Hell, and Tartarus, which few try to argue are part of the physical Universe, but rather spiritual domains.

Gap Restoration Theorists rely heavily on making...

Isaiah 45:18
For thus saith the Lord that created the heavens; God himself that formed the earth and made it; he hath established it, he created it not in vain, he formed it to be inhabited: I am the Lord; and there is none else.


...mean that this conflicts with the Genesis account. But that's the purpose of the Genesis account, to give us a record of how and why God created this universe.

God, not Satan, is the One Who accomplishes the following:


Jeremiah 4:22-28

King James Version (KJV)

22 For my people is foolish, they have not known me; they are sottish children, and they have none understanding: they are wise to do evil, but to do good they have no knowledge.

23 I beheld the earth, and, lo, it was without form, and void; and the heavens, and they had no light.

24 I beheld the mountains, and, lo, they trembled, and all the hills moved lightly.

25 I beheld, and, lo, there was no man, and all the birds of the heavens were fled.

26 I beheld, and, lo, the fruitful place was a wilderness, and all the cities thereof were broken down at the presence of the Lord, and by his fierce anger.

27 For thus hath the Lord said, The whole land shall be desolate; yet will I not make a full end.

28 For this shall the earth mourn, and the heavens above be black; because I have spoken it, I have purposed it, and will not repent, neither will I turn back from it.



In view is God's judgment on the already existing Israel.




In view is "the world to come," not the world as it was created. I view this as having a near fulfillment of the Millennial Kingdom, and then ultimately to the New heavens and earth, the Eternal State.




There is nothing in the Creation account that might lead us to believe it was. Subject to, perhaps, as we see in Satan's corrupting influence, bit not "subjected to," or, the idea that God gave the earth over to the demons, and that man was, or is, at their mercy.

God gave man domain, and even though he fell, man has always been at God's mercy, not Satan's.



And aren't you glad we worship the King? lol

Satan and his cohorts might struggle with Angels, but they bow to the King. Even in His human form prior to His death...they exceedingly feared, and thought the execution of their judgment was at hand (Matthew 8:29).



I think that is pretty much a given. The Plan of Redemption was known to God before He formed the World. He knew every member of the bloodline Christ would come through before there was the first man.


God bless.

For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 2 Cor 4:6

Is that a reference to Genesis 1:3?

ὅτι ὁ θεὸς ὁ εἰπών Ἐκ σκότους φῶς λάμψαι --- For the God the one saying out of darkness light to shine.

The light was not created. God was/is the light. 1 John 1:5 ὅτι ὁ Θεὸς φῶς ἐστιν --- For the God light is.

On the earth Spirit the God moving, spoke himself, out of, the already present darkness. Then God, the good light, divided himself from the darkness which had already been present on the earth, called it day and night and the two became a twenty four hours of twelve hours each. Day one. John 11:9,10 >>> IMHO The foundation of a system of order, the world.

This is what the man Adam, the living soul, was created into for the purpose of God, relative to an already sinful devil, Satan.

From this man the Son of God would be manifested in the flesh to destroy the works of the devil and establish the world to come of which through the redemption of the body, the living sou,l man, can be born into.

 

[Iconoclast]

found this today;

A discussion of the relation between the idea of the free offer of the gospel and the counsel and will of God leads us to a point which needs to be made. Those who hold to a free offer and still want to retain some semblance of being Calvinistic and Reformed make a distinction at this point between the will of God's decree and the will of His command; or, as is sometimes said, between God's decretive will and His preceptive will. According to this strange notion, God's decretive will purposes the salvation only of the elect, while God's preceptive will purposes the salvation of all who hear the gospel. Thus God has two wills that are in direct conflict.


The conflict is so obvious that even the supporters of this view (and their number is legion) find it a bit difficult to swallow. So in justification of this, they fall back on a sort of last line of defense and plead "apparent contradiction." They piously assure us (and it sounds truly pious) that God's ways are so much higher than our ways that we cannot fathom them. What to us seems to be contradictory, to God is a perfect harmony. All we can do is hold the two apparently contradictory propositions in proper tension.


We cannot go into this matter of apparent contradiction in this article; but it ought to be apparent to all that this sort of argumentation ultimately leads to theological skepticism. If there is contradiction possible at such a critical juncture of the truth, then there is contradiction possible at any juncture of the truth. Then man can be both totally depraved and relatively good. Then grace is both resistible and irresistible. Then God is both triune and not triune. Then justification is both by faith alone and also by faith and works. Then the atonement of Christ is both efficacious and ineffectual. And so one can go on. But this makes any knowledge of the truth impossible and mires one in the slime of subjectivism and skepticism.


Nevertheless, this doctrine of two wills in God is an invention. Any Reformer, including Calvin, who reprobated the idea in the strongest possible terms, has never held it. It is sheer human invention that masks an attempt to be both Arminian and Reformed at the same time.114 This does not mean that the distinction itself is not valid. It is certainly true that Scripture indicates to us that, within the one will of God, we may distinguish between the God's will of decree and God's will of precept. The danger of evil enters when we set these two over against each other in such a way that these two not only indicate two separate wills of God, but two wills which are in conflict with each other. But the distinction must be maintained because it has importance for our present subject.

http://www.prca.org/pamphlets/Free Offer/Chapter11.htm

 

[Darrell C]

For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 2 Cor 4:6

Is that a reference to Genesis 1:3?

ὅτι ὁ θεὸς ὁ εἰπών Ἐκ σκότους φῶς λάμψαι --- For the God the one saying out of darkness light to shine.

The light was not created. God was/is the light. 1 John 1:5 ὅτι ὁ Θεὸς φῶς ἐστιν --- For the God light is.

On the earth Spirit the God moving, spoke himself, out of, the already present darkness. Then God, the good light, divided himself from the darkness which had already been present on the earth, called it day and night and the two became a twenty four hours of twelve hours each. Day one. John 11:9,10 >>> IMHO The foundation of a system of order, the world.

This is what the man Adam, the living soul, was created into for the purpose of God, relative to an already sinful devil, Satan.

From this man the Son of God would be manifested in the flesh to destroy the works of the devil and establish the world to come of which through the redemption of the body, the living sou,l man, can be born into.

As I said, I see a distinct difference in the light of Creation and the Creator, Who is Light. We would have to conclude, if we fail to make that distinction, that it is at this time God becomes Light, or, that Light only begins at this point in time. We know that is not true, because again...God is Light. Right?

The sun, moon, and stars do not govern the Light of God. We see they are not needed in the Eternal State.


God bless.

 

[percho]

As I said, I see a distinct difference in the light of Creation and the Creator, Who is Light. We would have to conclude, if we fail to make that distinction, that it is at this time God becomes Light, or, that Light only begins at this point in time. We know that is not true, because again...God is Light. Right?

The sun, moon, and stars do not govern the Light of God. We see they are not needed in the Eternal State.


God bless.

No. You would have to conclude that for some reason, just as the glory departed from Israel, that God had removed his presence from the earth, post Genesis 1:1.

And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep.

Now comes the time. Night and day, evening and morning, darkness and good light, see John 11:9:10 twelve hours of each, to do something about the devil and his works through the first man Adam and the last Adam, the Son of God manifested in the flesh, then made spirit quickening.

Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 1 Cor 15:46
For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 1 Peter 3:18

 

[Darrell C]

No. You would have to conclude that for some reason, just as the glory departed from Israel, that God had removed his presence from the earth, post Genesis 1:1.

Did not God remove His presence from the earth?

Did not God walk with Adam in the cool of the day, yet, when Adam fell...that fellowship ended?

God's presence after this, Percho, is seen in God visiting with men. His presence is typified in the Tabernacle, where men could gain access to Him, which is significantly different than walking with God in the Creation He provided to Man in the beginning.

God's presence departing from Israel cannot be compared with God's presence in the Garden. This was face to face communion.

And the earth was without form, and void; and darkness was upon the face of the deep.

That is just the sequence of Creation. God creates the Universe, its state, in regards to the earth, was that it was covered in water. God creates land, fashioning the elements of the world in order to bring about a structure of existence, and those that would dwell in it.

I believe Gap Restoration Theory imposes into the text conditions that alter the sequence we are given. Quite a bit of speculation, and that is not how we exegete Scripture.

It is the worst form of Expository Teaching.

Now comes the time. Night and day, evening and morning, darkness and good light, see John 11:9:10 twelve hours of each, to do something about the devil and his works through the first man Adam and the last Adam, the Son of God manifested in the flesh, then made spirit quickening.

Night and day simply divide the physical darkness from the physical light.

Satan has nothing to do with this.

Howbeit that was not first which is spiritual, but that which is natural; and afterward that which is spiritual. 1 Cor 15:46

Now think about that, Percho: we know the first man is physical, the Second...Spiritual. So we can say dogmatically that the sequence given in Genesis make it clear that Adam is the original creation.

This nullifies speculation that there was a fall prior to the one we are given an account of.

Secondly, this passage refers to the physical man being glorified. The point is that man must first be made physical, die, and then he is made a spiritual being. Not...man is created, falls, then is recreated physical, then dies again, then is glorified.

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 1 Peter 3:18

And there it is again: man outside of relationship with God, and brought into relationship with God through Christ.

It is specific to the Gospel of Christ.


God bless.