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The free offer of the gospel
- Thread starter Iconoclast
- Start date
"percho,
Why would the gospel be preached to them?
What scriptures are you thinking of that suggests this idea of a second chance ?
Scripture indicates that when a person leaves their body they are confirmed in whatever state they were in;
8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
Who will preach the gospel to thses persons?
Why would the gospel be preached to them?
What scriptures are you thinking of that suggests this idea of a second chance ?
Scripture indicates that when a person leaves their body they are confirmed in whatever state they were in;
8 And I John saw these things, and heard them. And when I had heard and seen, I fell down to worship before the feet of the angel which shewed me these things.
9 Then saith he unto me, See thou do it not: for I am thy fellowservant, and of thy brethren the prophets, and of them which keep the sayings of this book: worship God.
10 And he saith unto me, Seal not the sayings of the prophecy of this book: for the time is at hand.
11 He that is unjust, let him be unjust still: and he which is filthy, let him be filthy still: and he that is righteous, let him be righteous still: and he that is holy, let him be holy still.
12 And, behold, I come quickly; and my reward is with me, to give every man according as his work shall be.
13 I am Alpha and Omega, the beginning and the end, the first and the last.
14 Blessed are they that do his commandments, that they may have right to the tree of life, and may enter in through the gates into the city.
15 For without are dogs, and sorcerers, and whoremongers, and murderers, and idolaters, and whosoever loveth and maketh a lie.
I agree with this.
Now, are you posting this as an objection to my statement or as an agreement?The word of God preached is heard by all those around by their natural ears. Yet, not all of them have 'ears to hear with'...which refers to the spirit within man. He is as dead as a door knob and is unable to hear. Unless God quickens a sinner unto life, the word of God, whether by witnessing, testifying, or preaching of the word of God, will never entice them. Unless God does His part first, man can not do his part and believe.
No man is able to truly hear the word of God unless they are first quickened. Man in the flesh hates God.
Hank, do not take this post personally, as I am more thinking out loud, but I do want to to 'hear' my thoughts.
This is why I loathe free will teachings. Unless man wills himself to hear, wills himself to believe, God can not save him. It has God's hands tied, unable to save anyone until they do they part. Yuck!
For what man knoweth the things of a man, save the spirit of man which is in him? even so the things of God knoweth no man, but the Spirit of God. Now we have received, not the spirit of the world, but the spirit which is of God; that we might know the things that are freely given to us of God.
Why was the Spirit given to man?
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. John 16:7
In less than twenty fours from Jesus saying this, where had he gone? He had given, his life, a ransom for many. He was dead. He had gone to his death. He had learned and become obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
His obedience unto death was the faith of someone. If I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; It has to be someone's faith. Someone believed Jesus would be this.
And that is what opens man's understanding of the things of God.
Why was the Spirit given to man?
Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you. John 16:7
In less than twenty fours from Jesus saying this, where had he gone? He had given, his life, a ransom for many. He was dead. He had gone to his death. He had learned and become obedient unto death, even the death of the cross.
This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith?
His obedience unto death was the faith of someone. If I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; It has to be someone's faith. Someone believed Jesus would be this.
And that is what opens man's understanding of the things of God.
Thanks for responding SG.
I have a debate challenge to one of you statements, one I have made before:
"No man is able to truly hear the word of God unless they are first quickened. Man in the flesh hates God".
What about Genesis chapter 4 where God and Cain have a dialogue, Cain makes an implied request of God and He responds by giving Cain a mark of protection. The least that could be said is that God indeed hears and responds to the prayer of the unregenerate.
I agree of course that man in the flesh hates God, however I believe the reason is that God has indeed awakened the flesh man to his sinful state via the work of the Holy Spirit.
John 16:8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:
Also your statement:
"This is why I loathe free will teachings. Unless man wills himself to hear, wills himself to believe, God can not save him. It has God's hands tied, unable to save anyone until they do they part".
According to A theology it is better to say God will not rather than He can not save those who won't do their part.
God does as He pleases (we all know that). He saved (apparently) and filled John the Baptist with the Spirit in his mothers womb.
Just a heads up on Arminian theology.
HankD
Good. Debates can be really beneficial. They have been to me over the years on here.
God spoke to many verbally in the OT days. He spoke with Satan after he fell. He also spoke with Cain, as you pointed out already. But in neither instance did He speak to them in a manner salvifically(if that is even a word
). Yet, in today's world, God only speaks through His word, whether He expresses something to us as we read it or as someone preaches it. I am talking about the saved here.Now, the unregenerate, God does not speak to them verbally, as He neither does verbally with us, either. So, that leaves us with solely the bible to glean the things that pertain to God. I used to read the bible some when I was lost, and it was a bunch of words that I could not understand. It would have been just as easy for me to have read a Japanese bible as an American bible at the time. And unless God quickens them, they can neither understand the bible as they read it nor when they heard it preached.
The flesh man is moved by what the spirit man does. If the spirit man is dead in transgression and sins, it acts accordingly. If the spirit man has been quickened, it will act accordingly. Watch how ppl act pre and post-conversion.
Either way, it has God not doing His part of saving them until they do theirs. It has God waiting upon man to act and He can then react. That is backwards. God acts in quickening them, and then they react to that which He did.
I don't know how John the Baptist helps or hurts either of our stances. His was a one time occurrence in the bible. I know of no other man who was filled with the Spirit in His mother's womb. Though I know some will say that about Jesus, but I don't consider Him in the same category. He is God and was God in the womb and possessed the Spirit of God(no duh...LOL). John the Baptist was a man with an earthly father and was filled with the Spirit six months into Elizabeth's pregnancy...I know I am telling you obvious stuff...just clearing the air.
Neither. You wrote "It is the unregenerate's wicked heart" that blocks them from coming to Christ. There's scriptures that put the blame on the devil for that. Question:
4 in whom the god of this world hath blinded the minds of the unbelieving, that the light of the gospel of the glory of Christ, who is the image of God, should not dawn upon them.
6 Seeing it is God, that said, Light shall shine out of darkness, who shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ. 2 Cor 4
Considering the 'whole lump' of mankind from Adam to the last one born, are there more 'vessels of wrath fitted for destruction', or are there more 'vessels of mercy afore prepared unto glory'?
"I believe there will be more in Heaven than in hell. If anyone asks me why I think so, I answer, because Christ, in everything, is to "have the preeminence," and I cannot conceive how He could have the preeminence if there are to be more in the dominions of Satan than in Paradise. Moreover, I have never read that there is to be in hell a great multitude, which no man could number." —Charles Spurgeon
Primitive Baptists in general agree with Spurgeon. What saith the ORBs?
Yet "more are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife" [Isa 54:1]. How do you rectify that with your 'gospel MEANS regeneration' theology?
Hello kyredneck
In the middle of National. Israel's apostasy promises were made concerning
The Servant of The Lord. He would gather the elect remnant of that nation and multitudes of gentiles through the means of preaching the gospel and faithful brethren reaching those lost sheep.
Thanks SG,Good. Debates can be really beneficial. They have been to me over the years on here.
God spoke to many verbally in the OT days. He spoke with Satan after he fell. He also spoke with Cain, as you pointed out already. But in neither instance did He speak to them in a manner salvifically(if that is even a word
Now, the unregenerate, God does not speak to them verbally, as He neither does verbally with us, either. So, that leaves us with solely the bible to glean the things that pertain to God. I used to read the bible some when I was lost, and it was a bunch of words that I could not understand. It would have been just as easy for me to have read a Japanese bible as an American bible at the time. And unless God quickens them, they can neither understand the bible as they read it nor when they heard it preached.
The flesh man is moved by what the spirit man does. If the spirit man is dead in transgression and sins, it acts accordingly. If the spirit man has been quickened, it will act accordingly. Watch how ppl act pre and post-conversion.
Either way, it has God not doing His part of saving them until they do theirs. It has God waiting upon man to act and He can then react. That is backwards. God acts in quickening them, and then they react to that which He did.
I don't know how John the Baptist helps or hurts either of our stances. His was a one time occurrence in the bible. I know of no other man who was filled with the Spirit in His mother's womb. Though I know some will say that about Jesus, but I don't consider Him in the same category. He is God and was God in the womb and possessed the Spirit of God(no duh...LOL). John the Baptist was a man with an earthly father and was filled with the Spirit six months into Elizabeth's pregnancy...I know I am telling you obvious stuff...just clearing the air.
My point is that the exceptions to the orthodox point of view prove that God is not bound by our systematic theologies.
After all He is God and does as He pleases. If He could fill John the Baptist in his mother's womb then He could/can for any human being. Presumably He regenerated him whilst yet unborn, so Ho could for any individual then.
No I am not going down an heretical rabbit trail
Just not putting unnecessary restraints or limits upon God.
Psalm 78:41 Yea, they turned back and tempted God, and limited the Holy One of Israel.
The context of Psalm 78 is limiting the ability of God to do His will even (or especially) when it is against our way of thinking.
For the most part I agree with your responses but I have a problem with closure on many things.
For over 50 years of walking with the Lord His only answer to many of my inquiries is
Psalm 46:10 Be still, and know that I am God: I will be exalted among the heathen, I will be exalted in the earth.
So I am undecided about C/A - Most would say that I am in the doctrine of grace camp with a form of dispensationalism.
Thanks
HankD
I also agree. I believe the stars of heaven and the grains of sand on the seashores is going to by far, out number what is left. Why? Because they will be Christ's and will then be Abraham's seed and heirs, then inheritors, according to the promise. Of what Ion questioned me. God only called Abraham to give him the the promise of the promised seed, Christ. He did not call Abraham's neighbors. If Abraham died, in Adam, not having received the promises why can't his uncalled neighbor who also. in Adam, has died not be raised from the dead, told of the faith that came, which was told to Abraham would come and be saved by the same God who saved me and you, not of anything of which we have done of our own, including believing, but through the faith that came and God's grace.
16 And other sheep I have, which are not of this fold: them also I must bring, and they shall hear my voice: and they shall become one flock, one shepherd. Jn 10
He didn't say 'other sheep I will have', he said 'other sheep I have'. "More are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife" was a statement of fact, not a promise of something yet to come.
He didn't say 'other sheep I will have', he said 'other sheep I have'. "More are the children of the desolate than the children of the married wife" was a statement of fact, not a promise of something yet to come.
kyredneck seems there is a scripture that some brethren go to when the say a National Israel will be restored I struggle with but don't see it as there are neither Jew nor Gentile but all in Christ... I would be interested to hear your take on these scriptures... Brother Glen
Acts 1:6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?
1:7 And he said unto them, It is not for you to know the times or the seasons, which the Father hath put in his own power.
1:8 But ye shall receive power, after that the Holy Ghost is come upon you: and ye shall be witnesses unto me both in Jerusalem, and in all Judaea, and in Samaria, and unto the uttermost part of the earth.
In post 36......my comment is the last paragraph.....it is right after your jn 10 statement......in is in the same quote box.....
Well of course.....all who are ordained to life were ordained before the world was. What was also ordained that The Great Shepherd of the sheep was going to both seek and save His sheep......all of them given to Him by the Father.......ezk34......all the people ....and all the means to gather the Covenant people out of the Kingdom of darkness are being employed since they were.originally spoken about....