Yes. That is why I said the two textforms are more alike than not when such minor spelling variants are (rightfully) ignored.
Yes, that is what I said.
Yes, that is what I said.
That is a topic for a completely separate discussion.
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The NIV Is In Good Company
- Thread starter Rippon
- Start date
No, I am not. I am the one who said it and I know what I was referring to.
When I was a seminary student almost 50 years ago there was a contentious young man who sat across from me in Old Testament Theology. Our Professor quoted from a book on OT Theology and began to explain what the author was saying. The young man spoke up and said "Dr. Van, you have misunderstood what the author was saying." To which Dr. Van replied, "Young man, I am the author!"
Rippon, "I am the author." I know exactly what I meant.
English does have an indefinite-gender pronoun: It. You can still see its early use as a personal pronoun in the KJV when the translators called the Holy Spirit it. Of course, the days are long past when it being applied to a person is acceptable.
While grammatically plural, they has been drafted into service as a singular to avoid use of he or he or she. This has happened within my lifetime, and no matter how much I dislike it, I know I am fighting a losing battle and that, at some point, the prescriptive grammarians will have to acknowledge its victory. Until then I will continue to keep correcting and recasting sentences to adhere to traditional grammar with the full knowledge that I'm increasingly curmudgeonly.
While grammatically plural, they has been drafted into service as a singular to avoid use of he or he or she. This has happened within my lifetime, and no matter how much I dislike it, I know I am fighting a losing battle and that, at some point, the prescriptive grammarians will have to acknowledge its victory. Until then I will continue to keep correcting and recasting sentences to adhere to traditional grammar with the full knowledge that I'm increasingly curmudgeonly.
Actually that is a formal equivalent translation. "Spirit" is a neuter noun in Greek and the pronoun must, according to the rules of Greek grammar, agree in case, number, and gender, thus a neuter pronoun is required.
Me too. And grass, to me, is still something you mow, not something you smoke. And gay means lighthearted and carefree. I am not going to let anyone steal my English language.
Actually that is a formal equivalent translation. "Spirit" is a neuter noun in Greek and the pronoun must, according to the rules of Greek grammar, agree in case, number, and gender, thus a neuter pronoun is required.
Yes, but it is no longer acceptable in English to refer to a person as it. One of the many problems translators must deal with. I'm all for formal equivalency, but I also want it made perfectly clear that the Holy Spirit is a person within the trinitarian formulation, not an exudation of divinity. To call the Holy Spirit Him, not it, seems to me to be an acceptable trade-off. But not they.
But wait a minute. Won't Rippon demand it read "the Holy Spirit himself or herself?"
Okay, seriously, I have no problem with the KJV using "itself" as that is a correct translation of the Greek word. However, I too want the bible to reflect the fact that the Holy Spirit is a Person, so have no problem at all with changing the gender of the pronoun to masculine (which, grammatically, is inclusive).
The grand total of all native English speakers has probably never exceeded one billion.
Mankind is no longer inclusive. Humankind or humanity rules, at least for now.
Question...Why are these modern versions constantly being revised? The translators should have gotten it right the first time! Also why were there 2 homosexuals on the committee for the NIV? Question 2 The bible tells us the Holy Spirit will teach us all we need to know
John 14:26King James Version (KJV)
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
1 John 2:27King James Version (KJV)
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
SO...why does anyone have difficulty reading & understanding the KJV and NKJV? I've read the KJV all my life and have no difficulty in understanding it! Have a blessed day!
John 14:26King James Version (KJV)
26 But the Comforter, which is the Holy Ghost, whom the Father will send in my name, he shall teach you all things, and bring all things to your remembrance, whatsoever I have said unto you.
1 John 2:27King James Version (KJV)
27 But the anointing which ye have received of him abideth in you, and ye need not that any man teach you: but as the same anointing teacheth you of all things, and is truth, and is no lie, and even as it hath taught you, ye shall abide in him.
SO...why does anyone have difficulty reading & understanding the KJV and NKJV? I've read the KJV all my life and have no difficulty in understanding it! Have a blessed day!
Language changes with time.
There wasn't.
Why was King James gay?
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For the same reasons the KJV has been revised so many times.
So should the KJV translators, but they didn't.
There weren't. One woman, who was a style consultant, not a translator nor on the translation committee, would many, many, many years later reveal that she was a lesbian. Nobody overseeing the translation of the NIV was aware of her homosexuality at the time.
[In the interest of full disclosure, my uncle, Kenneth Kantzer, served on the NIV translation committee from 1965 through 1969. However, I am not a fan of the NIV for several reasons not on point for this thread.]
True but language change does not explain the revisions of the KJV. That was the result of translation errors in the edition of 1611. By the way, the first revision to correct errors was published just a few months after the first edition. After the initial printing of the first edition, the second printing made a change in Ruth 3:15. In this verse, the subject of the sentence is somewhat ambiguous, so in the first edition the phrase was rendered, “he went into the citie.” Afterwards, they decided that the subject is meant to be Ruth, changing it to “she went into the citie.” Therefore, the first edition is known as the “He” Bible, and the second edition the “She” Bible.
He wasn't. He was madly in love with his wife Anne who bore him 9 children. He wrote extensively regarding proper conduct. There are absolutely no contemporary accounts alleging homosexuality on King James's part though there are contemporary accounts praising him for his moral virtue. Anthony Welden was an officer in the royal household of King James. He was knighted by King James in 1617. He was eventually dismissed from the royal court by King James. He vowed to get revenge!
He supported the anti-monarchy forces during the English Civil War. Twenty-five years after the death of King James, (one year after the execution of Charles I, King James' son) Welden made the first accusations of homosexuality against King James, after he nor his son could defend him. His statements were widely rejected at the time because there were still too many living people who had known King James personally and who dismissed the allegations as ridiculous.
King James' book Basilicon Doron (the Kingly Gift) was written in 1599. It contained instructions to his son about how to properly carry out the responsibilities of the king. Included among his instructions is this statement: "there are some horrible crimes that ye are bound in conscience never to forgive: such as witchcraft, willful murder, incest and sodomv..."
In July of 1610 James was asked to pardon a number of criminals. He did pardon several on the list but refused to pardon those convicted of sodomy. He advised his son to stay away from "effeminate ones." James repeatedly referred to homosexuality as the "horrible crime!"
King James was openly affectionate to his wife in public (public displays of affection were very rare at that time) and wrote her many love poems and sonnets. He greatly mourned her death in 1619, went into a deep depression he never recovered from, and which ultimately ended with his death in 1625. Many of his contemporaries commented that he died of a broken heart.
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Let's see. You post a link to a book by a gay English teacher who "married" his gay partner, who reads all sorts of nonsense into the formal language used in the late 16th and early 17th century, and consider that authoritative?
I have the NIV handy when I am too lazy to unravel either the KJV or original language difficulties.
KJV 1 Chronicles 26
13 And they cast lots, as well the small as the great, according to the house of their fathers, for every gate.
14 And the lot eastward fell to Shelemiah. Then for Zechariah his son, a wise counsellor, they cast lots; and his lot came out northward.
15 To Obededom southward; and to his sons the house of Asuppim.
16 To Shuppim and Hosah the lot came forth westward, with the gate Shallecheth, by the causeway of the going up, ward against ward.
17 Eastward were six Levites, northward four a day, southward four a day, and toward Asuppim two and two.
18 At Parbar westward, four at the causeway, and two at Parbar.
19 These are the divisions of the porters among the sons of Kore, and among the sons of Merari.
20 And of the Levites, Ahijah was over the treasures of the house of God, and over the treasures of the dedicated things.
NIV 1 Chronicles 26
13 Lots were cast for each gate, according to their families, young and old alike.
14 The lot for the East Gate fell to Shelemiah. Then lots were cast for his son Zechariah, a wise counselor, and the lot for the North Gate fell to him.
15 The lot for the South Gate fell to Obed-Edom, and the lot for the storehouse fell to his sons.
16 The lots for the West Gate and the Shalleketh Gate on the upper road fell to Shuppim and Hosah. Guard was alongside of guard:
17 There were six Levites a day on the east, four a day on the north, four a day on the south and two at a time at the storehouse.
18 As for the court to the west, there were four at the road and two at the court itself.
19 These were the divisions of the gatekeepers who were descendants of Korah and Merari.
20 Their fellow Levites were in charge of the treasuries of the house of God and the treasuries for the dedicated things.
KJV 2 Corinthians 6
11 O ye Corinthians, our mouth is open unto you, our heart is enlarged.
12 Ye are not straitened in us, but ye are straitened in your own bowels.
13 Now for a recompence in the same, (I speak as unto my children,) be ye also enlarged.
14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
NIV 2 Corinthians 6
11 We have spoken freely to you, Corinthians, and opened wide our hearts to you.
12 We are not withholding our affection from you, but you are withholding yours from us.
13 As a fair exchange-- I speak as to my children-- open wide your hearts also.
14 Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?
HankD
KJV 1 Chronicles 26
13 And they cast lots, as well the small as the great, according to the house of their fathers, for every gate.
14 And the lot eastward fell to Shelemiah. Then for Zechariah his son, a wise counsellor, they cast lots; and his lot came out northward.
15 To Obededom southward; and to his sons the house of Asuppim.
16 To Shuppim and Hosah the lot came forth westward, with the gate Shallecheth, by the causeway of the going up, ward against ward.
17 Eastward were six Levites, northward four a day, southward four a day, and toward Asuppim two and two.
18 At Parbar westward, four at the causeway, and two at Parbar.
19 These are the divisions of the porters among the sons of Kore, and among the sons of Merari.
20 And of the Levites, Ahijah was over the treasures of the house of God, and over the treasures of the dedicated things.
NIV 1 Chronicles 26
13 Lots were cast for each gate, according to their families, young and old alike.
14 The lot for the East Gate fell to Shelemiah. Then lots were cast for his son Zechariah, a wise counselor, and the lot for the North Gate fell to him.
15 The lot for the South Gate fell to Obed-Edom, and the lot for the storehouse fell to his sons.
16 The lots for the West Gate and the Shalleketh Gate on the upper road fell to Shuppim and Hosah. Guard was alongside of guard:
17 There were six Levites a day on the east, four a day on the north, four a day on the south and two at a time at the storehouse.
18 As for the court to the west, there were four at the road and two at the court itself.
19 These were the divisions of the gatekeepers who were descendants of Korah and Merari.
20 Their fellow Levites were in charge of the treasuries of the house of God and the treasuries for the dedicated things.
KJV 2 Corinthians 6
11 O ye Corinthians, our mouth is open unto you, our heart is enlarged.
12 Ye are not straitened in us, but ye are straitened in your own bowels.
13 Now for a recompence in the same, (I speak as unto my children,) be ye also enlarged.
14 Be ye not unequally yoked together with unbelievers: for what fellowship hath righteousness with unrighteousness? and what communion hath light with darkness?
NIV 2 Corinthians 6
11 We have spoken freely to you, Corinthians, and opened wide our hearts to you.
12 We are not withholding our affection from you, but you are withholding yours from us.
13 As a fair exchange-- I speak as to my children-- open wide your hearts also.
14 Do not be yoked together with unbelievers. For what do righteousness and wickedness have in common? Or what fellowship can light have with darkness?
HankD
Correct. And it's GOD who causes/allows those changes. He causes His word to be updated in newer translations to reflect those changes.
Very doubtful he was. The rumor was started by one Anthony Weldon, whom KJ banished from his court, seme 25 years after KJ's death, when he would suffer no consequences if the rumor were traced back to him. After all, KJ fathered NINE children, hardly the mark of a gay male!
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Yeah, you're right, of course. No gay man has ever fathered any children, or been married, moreso with a king who is expected to have heirs...
Why don't you read some of the letters King James wrote to his male friends and tell me how they could possibly be platonic?