Featured What is Justification by faith?

Okay, well you are more Catholic, and more Mormon than me, so nyaah!




God bless.

 

Again, the mythology of a Covenant that stands outside of time and has always been in effect.

Pure fiction.

The New Covenant is the Everlasting Covenant, and Redemptive History is clearly divided into when this Covenant comes into being as a fulfillment to the Promise of God and those Ages which precede it in which men were in differing Covenants.

Abraham, for example, was in relationship with God through a Covenant that held the promise of the New Covenant, but was not the New Covennat.

This is pulpit bred mythology, not Biblical Doctrine.

Another example of refusing to examine details relevant to the subject as a whole.

Yet, you create a thread complaining when someone takes a singular issue and focuses on it.

Contradict yourself much?

Don't answer, everyone already knows, and would be honest with you about it if they didn't have an agenda fueled by hatred, which came about through debate as well.

These aren't your friends, Biblicist, they aren't helping you by sharing a hatred for myself.


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No, Biblicist, they were not perfected in Christ before the world began.

All men are born separated from God, not born having their sins forgiven.

You are ignorant of the Doctrine of Perfection and will not suffer that anyone teach you, because you are unteachable. Your ego will not allow that you are in error about something.

We don't have "illegally perfected Saints" in the Old Testament, and legally perfected Saints in the New. The Writer, thus the Holy Ghost...is clear: they were not made perfect...

...period.

You are making it up as you go. That is not a Biblical approach.

And by the way...where is the quote of me denying Old Testament Saints were justified?

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Your "Biblical content of Justification" teaches that men are saved by faith through grace, and you make the Cross of Christ a mere formality.

Insufferable codswaddle (and you can ask @Martin what codswaddle means, I have no idea).

What ever it means, it is an apt description of the nonsense you teach.

By the way, ever come to a conclusion whether infants in the womb have no ability to discern right or wrong or if they are regenerated in the womb at death or if at death still means something different than after death?

And by the way...where is that quote of me denying men were justified in the Old Testament?


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Okay, quote me where you come to this erroneous understanding of what I have said. This one should be easy, because I have spoken of justification by works in regards to Abraham.

It has nothing to do with sanctification, it has everything to do with we do not divorce Abraham's works from the fact that he was justified.

Will you quote me? Doubt it, because you have already shown you have no problem slandering people without justification, and you will not repent of this dishonesty in your debate tactics.

The simple fact is that James makes it clear Abraham was justified by his works:


James 2:21-22

King James Version (KJV)

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?


Abraham's faith was made complete, not by the works themselves, but simply becaue he did that which evidenced his faith. We wouldn't know Abraham believed God's promise of an heir, and that all families of the earth would be blessed though him...if we did not havea record of something Abraham did which drives home the fact that Abraham believed God and was a man of faith.

Now...

...where is that quote?


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No one was justified prior to the cross. No scripture saying or suggesting will be posted. On the other hand, we are justified by the blood of Christ, Romans 5:9.

Now lets consider James 2:21-26. James is saying Abraham was "justified" by faith that was alive and not dead. But when was he justified? It does not say. Rehab was "justified" again by faith that was alive and not dead. But when was Rehab justified. Both Abraham and Rehab had to wait to be made perfect, until Christ died in order to be justified by the blood of Christ. They gained approval by faith, during their lives, but had to wait to be made perfect after Christ died.

 

Where have I done this?

This is slander until you quote me doing this.

That Moderation has not taken issue with this is curious.

Over and over you have been asked to substantiate you charges, yet you do not.

It is assumed that your "Biblical content of justification" is correct by yourself, when what is clear is that you are equating justification with Eternal Redemption.

The Old Testament was not Eternally Redeemed...that is clear:


Hebrews 9:12-15

King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


Justification is not why the Old Testament Saints were saved. They were saved by grace through faith, not by faith through grace.

And the infant that dies in the womb has no capacity for faith...

...yet they are saved by grace as well.


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I will take that as a non-denial denial. Thus it appears I was spot on.

 

That referred to God manifested in the flesh. Jesus the Christ born of the virgin Mary of the seed of David who was obedient into pouring out the soul of the flesh that is in the blood. Isa 53:12

because he hath poured out his soul unto death:

That was the obedience of one which brought righteousness for the many referred to in Romans 5:19 Righteousness being justification.

 

And Romans 5:9 contrasts justification through faith in that available to Abraham, and justification accomplished through the Cross.

You're just not going to be able to deny that Abraham is said to be justified by faith by Paul, and justified by works by James.

Neither are saying that Abraham was saved by his faith or works on an eternal basis. Both are saying he was justified. Big difference.

Lot is considered Just while he dwells in Sodom, and as far as I am concerned, the man was due for a flogging, lol. Any man that would offer up his daughters to evil men...

...not on my watch.

But, Lot had faith to leave the city, right?

Was Lot saved because he left the city, thus escaping the judgment of God?

No, he was saved by grace, not faith. He was justified...by faith.

Van, it is very simple:


James 2:21-22

King James Version (KJV)

21 Was not Abraham our father justified by works, when he had offered Isaac his son upon the altar?

22 Seest thou how faith wrought with his works, and by works was faith made perfect?


Just as James teaches that those who say and do not do, such as saying "Be ye warmed and filled without providing that which is necessary," are not justified despite the "saying," even so Abraham was not justified just by saying, but by doing. The context is before men. That is where these works fit into this context. James is not saying Abraham was saved by works, but justified.

And the fact is that he was justified, you cannot deny that.

And that is the point the OP misses: Eternal Salvation in Christ is not identical to being justified and declared a Saint of God.

When Paul teaches Abraham was justified by faith, neither is he saying "Abraham was eternally redeemed by faith."

He is saying he was justified, and to equate that with Christ's Work is a mistake many make.


God bless.

 

More grammatical suicide.

And it has nothing to do with my views.

That Abraham was justified by faith prior to circumcision does not equate to...

...Abraham's was made perfect in Christ because he was justified by his faith.

Before you presume to speak for me you need to first understand what it is I believe.

Now, again, where is a quote to substantiate your charge that I teach the Old Testament Saint was not justified?

You can't provide it, you know it, and everyone here knows it. That you will not be honest about this shows the depths you will lower yourself to in Doctrinal Debate.

Now provide the quote or admit that you have not been honest, and are therefore guilty of the very things you snivel about.


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So show me where I emptied the term.

Where is the quote.

You cannot provide it, and you know it.

You are doing the same waffling here that you did in regards to your statement that infants do not have the personal ability to discern good or evil.

So quote me where the Justification I teach is not biblical as you charge.

Do that right now, or continue to be seen as a slanderer and a dishonest debater.


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Romans 5:9, Much more then, having been justified by His blood...."
Hebrews 11:2, For by it [faith] the men of old gained approval.
Hebrew 11:39-40, And all these [OT saints] having gained approval through their faith, did not receive what was promised, because God had provided something better for us, so that apart from us they would not be made perfect.

Material false statement.

God is the justifier of those who believe in Jesus.

 

So quote me where I can be seen to be guilty of this.

Do it now.

Or your dishonesty will remain as the only consistent thing about your teaching.

There is a huge difference between my own position concerning Justification and that of the Catholic. I do not claim men are justified by faith and then must also have works to ensure salvation. I do not teach that those justified by faith in the Old Testament were made perfect, or confuse, as you do, justification by faith with Eternal Redemption that became available to man, whether alive or dead...

...only through Christ's Work. That includes the Incarnation, His Vicarious Death, His Resurrection, His Return to Heaven, and His sending of the Promised Spirit.

I do not confuse Abraham being justified by faith with Abraham being under a fictitious pulpit bred mythological teaching of a Covennat that was in place before the New Covenant was established on the Blood of Christ.

Now quote what it is that you feel I said that likens me in any way to Catholic Doctrine, do it now, and quit dodging the challenge.

You know you can't, and all you can resort to are false arguments you create which gives you something you can actually debate with.

That's why you start threads, seeking support for your doctrine and fellowship in your dislike of me. But every thread has seen you defeat your own OP, and get no nearer to providing a substantiation for your false charges and false arguments.

Now quote me, Biblicist.


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Quote me saying what it is I have said that gives you the right to say I teach the Old Testament was not justified.

This is a completely separate issue from what imputed righteousness means and how that is relevant to justification.

Quit changing the subject, Biblicist...

...and quote me.

When you have done that I will deal with your error on these other issues, but for now you are going to be held accountable for your slander and misrepresentation.

Your only hope is that the peanut gallery shows up and gets this thread shut down.

Now quote whatever it is that shows me teaching the Old Testament Saint was not justified.


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