Well there is so much venom in their posts that I put them on ignore and stopped reading them. Unreasonable people cannot be reasoned with. Thanks for the support
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What is Justification by faith?
- Thread starter The Biblicist
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Well there is so much venom in their posts that I put them on ignore and stopped reading them. Unreasonable people cannot be reasoned with. Thanks for the support
I'm weird but I find them amusing especially when DC is called out and goes on full on rant mode, but my husband on the other hand has some not nice opinions of DC because of his actions on here.
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Well, there is such an attitude of ridicule and little to no objectivity it is a useless task to reason with them. They repeat the same disproven assertions.
I don't mean to say, that they don't have some good points and that my position does not have any problems. Every Biblical truth has its difficulties. However, the overall evidence outweighs the difficulties and that is true with the position I am presenting.
I would like to find some well qualified defenders of their position who are more reasonable and objective. I think a good objective study on this issue would be beneficial for all and a good learning experience.
Heb. 9:7 But into the second went the high priest alone once every year, not without blood, which he offered for himself, and for the errors of the people:
8 ¶ The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
My detractors often quote this passage to prove that heaven was not yet open for believers until the coming of Christ. However, that is not what this passage teaches.
The Tabernacle and its High Priests and services were figures of Christ and the gospel "for the time then present." That is the High Priest was a present figure of Christ and his salvation already made available by personal faith in the "the blood of the everlasting covenant." However, it was only a "figure" based upon anticipation rather than a figure based upon fulfillment (as baptism and the Lord's Supper) because Christ had not yet come as the "manifest" way into the holiest. Until that way into the holiest was literally made "manifest" in the coming of the Person and finished work of Christ this figure of anticipation of his mediatorial work continued. As long as the "first temple was yet standing" it was a denial that the Christ had been "manifest" as "the way into the holiest."
So what we have here is a gospel figure in contrast to the fulfillment of that figure in the manifestation of the Person and work of Christ. However, the TRUTH of that figure as far as personal application of redemption had been preached since the garden of Eden through the anticipatory gospel by all the prophets. What is the truth of that figure? The High Priest represented Christ as the only mediator and Savior in behalf of all his true people (typified by Israel) as the only way to God
These gifts and sacrifices could never remove sin from the conscience and were never designed to do so. They were designed to be figures of what could - figures of the PRESENT gospel being preached (Acts 10:43).
That is why the writer of hebrews could say:
For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. - Heb. 4:2
First, note it is the SAME gospel being preached "unto us" that was preached "unto them"
Second, note the reason it "did not profit them." The problem was not that it could not fully save them. The problem was they refused to believe it in their heart. He is talking about the generation of the people of Israel who fell in the wilderness when the tabernacle with all of its figures of the gospel was instituted among them.
So it is true that while the anticipatory FIGURES continued it was a denial that the antitype of those figures had been "manifest." If Israel had believed in Jesus as the Christ and the cross as the finished work of redemption they should have shut down the tabernacle as soon as God rent the veil at his resurrection. These Hebrew Christians were being tempted to repudiate the "manifest" antitype and return to the anticipatory figures which would be rejection of Jesus as the Christ.
However, it is not true that the TRUTH of those figures, meaning Christ as the only way into the presence of God was personally applicable by faith before the antitype had been manifested.
Indeed, David believed on the basis of his own personal salvation due to the "blood of the everlasting covnenant" that when he had direct access to God through prayer and that God's presence was with him all through his life and at death he would contine in God's presence IN HEAVEN not in some subterranean limbo aspect of Hades:
Psa. 73:23 Nevertheless I am continually with thee: thou hast holden me by my right hand.
24 Thou shalt guide me with thy counsel, and afterward receive me to glory.
25 Whom have I in heaven but thee? and there is none upon earth that I desire beside thee.
26 My flesh and my heart faileth: but God is the strength of my heart, and my portion for ever.
Notice his wording - "I am CONTINUALLY with thee." He defines this carefully with regard to only two possible locations - "upon earth" and "in heaven." No third location (hades). "Upon earth" God will "guide me with thy counsel" but at death his expectation was not to descend into hades but "and AFTERWARD receive me into glory" (not hades). Only two possible locations are considered "upon earth" or "in heaven" or "glory" becuase it is where God's "glory" is visibly manifested. In Psalm 139 only two contrasting locations are known to David "in heaven" or "in hades" and they are separated by a very great gulf and one is referred to as "up" and the other as "down."
The Biblical teaching of hades is that it is the place of "the dead." The "dead" body goes to upper sheol/hades, and all the bodies of saints are found there (1 Cor. 15:53-58 "grave" = "hades"). The "lowest sheol" is where the SPIRITUAL DEAD exist - the spirits of the lost.
Before the cross, both Elijah and Moses are in heaven and meet Christ on the mount of Transfiguration. Elijah was taken UP into heaven not DOWN into hades. Paradise has always been in heaven and never in hades.
Therefore the "FIGURE" in the tabernacle which is found in the truth of the gospel and its personal application from Genesis to Revelation was to remain until Christ the only way into God's presence was "MANIFEST" in the actual coming of Christ and his redemptive provision. However, that anticipated provision in FIGURE and in the preaching of the gospel was always APPLIED by God according to the "blood of the everlasting covenant" by simple faith before and after Christ was "manifest" as that way into the presence of God. God was CONTINUALLY present in the lives of his people prior to the cross and they always had access to the presence of God through prayer and into heaven at death.
So, let me summarize. The Tabernacle/temple is a FIGURE of the gospel truth. The coming of Christ and his work is the FULFILLMENT of the gospel truth but the APPLICATION of the figure and actual provision has been and is by faith from Eden till now through faith in the gospel truth. It had been "manifest" in type but it had not been "manifest" by antitype but the truth is declared equally by both figure and manifestation and it is the truth the gospel declares and that truth is received by faith.
I distinguished between the actual provision made by Christ from the actual APPLICATION made by God based on promise. The application has been made since Eden based on the "blood of the everlasting covenant" even though the actual provision is historical in time and space. The FIGURE preached the truth of the gospel provision which could be embraced by faith (Heb. 4:2) and applied by God based upon his own word of promise long before the provision was "manifest." The historical fulfillment justified God for applying it previously.
8 ¶ The Holy Ghost this signifying, that the way into the holiest of all was not yet made manifest, while as the first tabernacle was yet standing:
9 Which was a figure for the time then present, in which were offered both gifts and sacrifices, that could not make him that did the service perfect, as pertaining to the conscience;
My detractors often quote this passage to prove that heaven was not yet open for believers until the coming of Christ. However, that is not what this passage teaches.
The Tabernacle and its High Priests and services were figures of Christ and the gospel "for the time then present." That is the High Priest was a present figure of Christ and his salvation already made available by personal faith in the "the blood of the everlasting covenant." However, it was only a "figure" based upon anticipation rather than a figure based upon fulfillment (as baptism and the Lord's Supper) because Christ had not yet come as the "manifest" way into the holiest. Until that way into the holiest was literally made "manifest" in the coming of the Person and finished work of Christ this figure of anticipation of his mediatorial work continued. As long as the "first temple was yet standing" it was a denial that the Christ had been "manifest" as "the way into the holiest."
So what we have here is a gospel figure in contrast to the fulfillment of that figure in the manifestation of the Person and work of Christ. However, the TRUTH of that figure as far as personal application of redemption had been preached since the garden of Eden through the anticipatory gospel by all the prophets. What is the truth of that figure? The High Priest represented Christ as the only mediator and Savior in behalf of all his true people (typified by Israel) as the only way to God
These gifts and sacrifices could never remove sin from the conscience and were never designed to do so. They were designed to be figures of what could - figures of the PRESENT gospel being preached (Acts 10:43).
That is why the writer of hebrews could say:
For unto us was the gospel preached, as well as unto them: but the word preached did not profit them, not being mixed with faith in them that heard it. - Heb. 4:2
First, note it is the SAME gospel being preached "unto us" that was preached "unto them"
Second, note the reason it "did not profit them." The problem was not that it could not fully save them. The problem was they refused to believe it in their heart. He is talking about the generation of the people of Israel who fell in the wilderness when the tabernacle with all of its figures of the gospel was instituted among them.
So it is true that while the anticipatory FIGURES continued it was a denial that the antitype of those figures had been "manifest." If Israel had believed in Jesus as the Christ and the cross as the finished work of redemption they should have shut down the tabernacle as soon as God rent the veil at his resurrection. These Hebrew Christians were being tempted to repudiate the "manifest" antitype and return to the anticipatory figures which would be rejection of Jesus as the Christ.
However, it is not true that the TRUTH of those figures, meaning Christ as the only way into the presence of God was personally applicable by faith before the antitype had been manifested.
Indeed, David believed on the basis of his own personal salvation due to the "blood of the everlasting covnenant" that when he had direct access to God through prayer and that God's presence was with him all through his life and at death he would contine in God's presence IN HEAVEN not in some subterranean limbo aspect of Hades:
Psa. 73:23 Nevertheless I am continually with thee: thou hast holden me by my right hand.
24 Thou shalt guide me with thy counsel, and afterward receive me to glory.
25 Whom have I in heaven but thee? and there is none upon earth that I desire beside thee.
26 My flesh and my heart faileth: but God is the strength of my heart, and my portion for ever.
Notice his wording - "I am CONTINUALLY with thee." He defines this carefully with regard to only two possible locations - "upon earth" and "in heaven." No third location (hades). "Upon earth" God will "guide me with thy counsel" but at death his expectation was not to descend into hades but "and AFTERWARD receive me into glory" (not hades). Only two possible locations are considered "upon earth" or "in heaven" or "glory" becuase it is where God's "glory" is visibly manifested. In Psalm 139 only two contrasting locations are known to David "in heaven" or "in hades" and they are separated by a very great gulf and one is referred to as "up" and the other as "down."
The Biblical teaching of hades is that it is the place of "the dead." The "dead" body goes to upper sheol/hades, and all the bodies of saints are found there (1 Cor. 15:53-58 "grave" = "hades"). The "lowest sheol" is where the SPIRITUAL DEAD exist - the spirits of the lost.
Before the cross, both Elijah and Moses are in heaven and meet Christ on the mount of Transfiguration. Elijah was taken UP into heaven not DOWN into hades. Paradise has always been in heaven and never in hades.
Therefore the "FIGURE" in the tabernacle which is found in the truth of the gospel and its personal application from Genesis to Revelation was to remain until Christ the only way into God's presence was "MANIFEST" in the actual coming of Christ and his redemptive provision. However, that anticipated provision in FIGURE and in the preaching of the gospel was always APPLIED by God according to the "blood of the everlasting covenant" by simple faith before and after Christ was "manifest" as that way into the presence of God. God was CONTINUALLY present in the lives of his people prior to the cross and they always had access to the presence of God through prayer and into heaven at death.
So, let me summarize. The Tabernacle/temple is a FIGURE of the gospel truth. The coming of Christ and his work is the FULFILLMENT of the gospel truth but the APPLICATION of the figure and actual provision has been and is by faith from Eden till now through faith in the gospel truth. It had been "manifest" in type but it had not been "manifest" by antitype but the truth is declared equally by both figure and manifestation and it is the truth the gospel declares and that truth is received by faith.
I distinguished between the actual provision made by Christ from the actual APPLICATION made by God based on promise. The application has been made since Eden based on the "blood of the everlasting covenant" even though the actual provision is historical in time and space. The FIGURE preached the truth of the gospel provision which could be embraced by faith (Heb. 4:2) and applied by God based upon his own word of promise long before the provision was "manifest." The historical fulfillment justified God for applying it previously.
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Isa. 46:9 Remember the former things of old: for I am God, and there is none else; I am God, and there is none like me,
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.
12 Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness:
13 I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.
God and His redemptive purposes are not restricted by time. Time may reveal or manifest his redemptive purposes but they do not restrict his purposes. God encompasses time and sees everything in present tense as though there was no past or future.
Therefore, God may apply redemption in its fullness in the Garden of Eden or the day before Pentecost because his view is a constant present. His purposes are seen as accomplished and therefore the historical provision of redemption does not restrict Gods application of redemption at any point in time as the cross is an eternal present in his eyes due to his eternal purpose of redemption. Hence, his PROMISE of salvation can be received and applied at any point in history simply because God and his eternal purpose is not confined to past, present or future. That is why it is called "the blood of the EVERLASTING covenant" and that is why Christ is referred to as "slain from the foundation of the world" as God is not restricted by time or restrained from applying this covenant salvation by time.
10 Declaring the end from the beginning, and from ancient times the things that are not yet done, saying, My counsel shall stand, and I will do all my pleasure:
11 Calling a ravenous bird from the east, the man that executeth my counsel from a far country: yea, I have spoken it, I will also bring it to pass; I have purposed it, I will also do it.
12 Hearken unto me, ye stouthearted, that are far from righteousness:
13 I bring near my righteousness; it shall not be far off, and my salvation shall not tarry: and I will place salvation in Zion for Israel my glory.
God and His redemptive purposes are not restricted by time. Time may reveal or manifest his redemptive purposes but they do not restrict his purposes. God encompasses time and sees everything in present tense as though there was no past or future.
Therefore, God may apply redemption in its fullness in the Garden of Eden or the day before Pentecost because his view is a constant present. His purposes are seen as accomplished and therefore the historical provision of redemption does not restrict Gods application of redemption at any point in time as the cross is an eternal present in his eyes due to his eternal purpose of redemption. Hence, his PROMISE of salvation can be received and applied at any point in history simply because God and his eternal purpose is not confined to past, present or future. That is why it is called "the blood of the EVERLASTING covenant" and that is why Christ is referred to as "slain from the foundation of the world" as God is not restricted by time or restrained from applying this covenant salvation by time.
The absurd assertions continue. Were men of the OT said to be righteous? Yes. But were they sinners? Again yes. In order to remove that sin burden, they had to be justified by the blood of Christ after He shed His blood. This is basic Christianity 101. There is no way to come to the Father except through Jesus. That is why Abel, Abraham, Rehab and all the rest of the OT Saints had to wait in Abraham's bosom until Christ died in order to be made perfect, made righteous, and justified by the blood of the Lamb.
Yes, they gained approval, and were earmarked for justification when it became available. But they had to wait.
There is no other justification except by the blood of Christ. None, zip, nada. No word games where being righteous before men is equated with being justified by His blood will cut the mustard. No time travel argument whereby Christ's blood was available before Christ died. All these arguments are both unbiblical and absurd.
Look for scripture that says Abraham was justified before Christ died. You will not find it. You will find that Abraham's faith was credited to Abraham as righteousness. He was not made righteous, his faith was! Was Abraham eventually justified after Christ died? Yes, and he is in the kingdom of God this very day. But he had to wait in Abraham's bosom until Christ died to be justified by the blood of Christ.
Yes, they gained approval, and were earmarked for justification when it became available. But they had to wait.
There is no other justification except by the blood of Christ. None, zip, nada. No word games where being righteous before men is equated with being justified by His blood will cut the mustard. No time travel argument whereby Christ's blood was available before Christ died. All these arguments are both unbiblical and absurd.
Look for scripture that says Abraham was justified before Christ died. You will not find it. You will find that Abraham's faith was credited to Abraham as righteousness. He was not made righteous, his faith was! Was Abraham eventually justified after Christ died? Yes, and he is in the kingdom of God this very day. But he had to wait in Abraham's bosom until Christ died to be justified by the blood of Christ.
I believe the Bible means what it says. Thus, Romans 5:19 says by the disobedience of the one (Adam) the many (everyone save Christ) were made sinners, and thus were conceived in iniquity.
Scripture is clear. No one was justified before Christ died. Because everyone that is justified, is justified through Christ's faithfulness on the cross.
Romans 4:5 does not say Abraham was made righteous or justified. It says his faith (Abraham's faith) was credited as righteousness. That determination gave Abraham approval by faith, and he waited in "Abraham's bosom" until after Christ died to be made perfect, righteous and holy.
There is no support for a "legal" righteousness before Christ died. Yes, Abraham was a righteous man, but still a sinner needing to be washed by the blood of the Lamb. There is no other way. No one comes to the Father except through Me (Jesus).
Romans 3:24
being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
Only when God credits our faith toward Christ as righteousness, does God transfer us out of the realm of darkness, and into the kingdom of His Son. Justification occurs through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus. No one was ever justified except by the blood of Christ.
What does it mean - justification by faith. Does our faith magically justify us with God? Or should we say justification based on faith. The idea being God justifies us (forgives and removes our sin burden) based on Him crediting our faith as righteousness.
Lets consider four verses, Romans 3:28, Romans 5:1, Galatians 2:16 and Galatians 3:24.
We do not find the phrase "justification by faith" in the NASB, but we do find "justified by faith" in these verses. Interestingly, the NET translates "justified" as "declared righteous." And also the NET translates Galatians 2:16 as referring to being justified by [based on or through] Christ's faithfulness, not ours. Galatians 3:24 again refers to us being justified based on faith.
G1344, dikaioō, is translated a number of different ways including "declared righteous" vindicated, and freed, but the context would allow it to be translated justify, justified everywhere it appears.
In summary, we are justified based on our faith in Christ being credited as righteousness by God through the faithfulness of Christ on the cross.
If we translate the preposition "ek" as based on, "dia" as through, "ex" as from, and the construction lacking a separate preposition as by, we get these translations of our verses:
Romans 3:28 For we consider a person to be justified by faith apart from the works of the law.
Romans 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified based on faith through our Lord Jesus Christ, we have peace with God.
Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a person is not justified from the works of the law but through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ, even we have come to believe in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified based on the faithfulness of Christ and not from the works of the law, because from the works of the law no one will be justified.
Galatians 3:24 Thus the law has become our escort to Christ, so that we could be justified based on faith.
Scripture is clear. No one was justified before Christ died. Because everyone that is justified, is justified through Christ's faithfulness on the cross.
Romans 4:5 does not say Abraham was made righteous or justified. It says his faith (Abraham's faith) was credited as righteousness. That determination gave Abraham approval by faith, and he waited in "Abraham's bosom" until after Christ died to be made perfect, righteous and holy.
There is no support for a "legal" righteousness before Christ died. Yes, Abraham was a righteous man, but still a sinner needing to be washed by the blood of the Lamb. There is no other way. No one comes to the Father except through Me (Jesus).
Romans 3:24
being justified as a gift by His grace through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus;
Only when God credits our faith toward Christ as righteousness, does God transfer us out of the realm of darkness, and into the kingdom of His Son. Justification occurs through the redemption which is in Christ Jesus. No one was ever justified except by the blood of Christ.
What does it mean - justification by faith. Does our faith magically justify us with God? Or should we say justification based on faith. The idea being God justifies us (forgives and removes our sin burden) based on Him crediting our faith as righteousness.
Lets consider four verses, Romans 3:28, Romans 5:1, Galatians 2:16 and Galatians 3:24.
We do not find the phrase "justification by faith" in the NASB, but we do find "justified by faith" in these verses. Interestingly, the NET translates "justified" as "declared righteous." And also the NET translates Galatians 2:16 as referring to being justified by [based on or through] Christ's faithfulness, not ours. Galatians 3:24 again refers to us being justified based on faith.
G1344, dikaioō, is translated a number of different ways including "declared righteous" vindicated, and freed, but the context would allow it to be translated justify, justified everywhere it appears.
In summary, we are justified based on our faith in Christ being credited as righteousness by God through the faithfulness of Christ on the cross.
If we translate the preposition "ek" as based on, "dia" as through, "ex" as from, and the construction lacking a separate preposition as by, we get these translations of our verses:
Romans 3:28 For we consider a person to be justified by faith apart from the works of the law.
Romans 5:1 Therefore, since we have been justified based on faith through our Lord Jesus Christ, we have peace with God.
Galatians 2:16 Knowing that a person is not justified from the works of the law but through the faithfulness of Jesus Christ, even we have come to believe in Christ Jesus, so that we may be justified based on the faithfulness of Christ and not from the works of the law, because from the works of the law no one will be justified.
Galatians 3:24 Thus the law has become our escort to Christ, so that we could be justified based on faith.
Some of my detractors can't discern the difference between future and past tenses or between linear and completed action. Nowhere can we find that Abraham "shall" be justified - nowhere. What we find consistently is that justification was a PRESENT reality with Abraham (present tense) and which it occurred as a completed action (Aorist tense) within the time restraints of his uncircumcised period of life at the precise point in that aspect of his life at the point of faith in the gospel (perfect tense).
No one has yet responded to the evidence I provided in my exposition of Romans 4:1-5 that demonstrates clearly that Paul is saying that Abraham was justified before God but not by works, but by faith. Moreover, that imputed righteousness AND remissions of sin IS the content of justification. This is made so clear in Romans 4:1-8 that it is hard to believe than any logical mind that is able to read and understand basic Greek or English can avoid seeing it. It would take a completely closed mind, that has been closed by complete nonsense to deny this. In order to demonstrate the clarity of this point I quote the contextual evidence I previously presented in another post:
Readers, here is where the whole position by van and Darrel breaks down and collapses and it is easy to demonstrate they are in error when they imagine a dichotomy between justification and imputed righteousness. Here is the unanswerable evidence:
1 ¶ What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Paul is not arguing about whether Abraham was justified or not, but he is arguing that he was not "justified by works" but by something else. The only other option offered in this entire context to "works" for justification is "by faith." Notice verse 5 and the only two possible options provided "worketh not BUT believeth."
The Jews believed that righteousness was obtained "by works" in addition to "faith" or faithfulness to God's commandments, such a person they regarded as "godly." Paul is refuting that idea as he claims that righteousness and remission of sins is obtained "by faith WITHOUT WORKS" and by one who is "ungodly" with regard to his own person by the standard of God's own righteousness or glory ("fall have sinned and COME SHORT OF THE GLORY of God"). Thus Abraham was not Justified by works but obtained righteousness and remission of sins by faith alone WITHOUT works.
In Paul's mind, justification before God IS based wholly upon being righteous and without sins and therefore to be "justified" must be inclusive of being righteous and without sin before God or one is not justified "before God." Therefore, imputed righteousness and remission of sins are irrefutably inseparable from justification before God.
Van is denying the obvious and manufacturing a dichotomy that does not exist in Romans 3-4. Everything else he bases his arguments on are mere distractions from the real issue. When the real issue is seen, meaning Justification before God IS being righteous and without sin then all the other distractions can be properly addressed.
Since this is the ultimate bottom line upon which both Van's and Darrell's whole theory rests,if they are wrong here they are wrong in all the little diversions they want us to take up valuable time with.
Any objective Bible student can easily and clearly see what I am saying here is absolute indisputable truth. I am not trying to convince either Van or Darrell because that is a fools errand. God alone is capable for doing that. I am simply exposing their error and this truth fully exposes their error.
There is no point in following any other rabbit trail. This issue settles it once and for all. If they are wrong here they are wrong altogether.
In Paul's mind justification is not obtained by works but by faith and what faith obtains is justification or what is defined as imputed righteousness and remission of sins. Abraham is the model of justification by faith both THEN and NOW and no matter how many times Van may deny Abraham was FULLY and COMPLETELY justified Paul places indisputable evidences that Van will never attempt to approach honestly or objectively. Those evidences are aorist and perfect tense verbs and narrowly confined within the time of uncircumcision which proves it was a COMPLETED action. Moreover, the perfect tense takes the reader back to the POINT of faith, which is the ONLY ALTERNATIVE provided by Paul in contrast to "by works." This demonstrates it is a completed action at the point of faith in the promised gospel provision. As a completed action it inherently includes application at that very same point in time and so such a person can be called "The Blessed Man" - vv. 6-8.
No one has yet responded to the evidence I provided in my exposition of Romans 4:1-5 that demonstrates clearly that Paul is saying that Abraham was justified before God but not by works, but by faith. Moreover, that imputed righteousness AND remissions of sin IS the content of justification. This is made so clear in Romans 4:1-8 that it is hard to believe than any logical mind that is able to read and understand basic Greek or English can avoid seeing it. It would take a completely closed mind, that has been closed by complete nonsense to deny this. In order to demonstrate the clarity of this point I quote the contextual evidence I previously presented in another post:
Readers, here is where the whole position by van and Darrel breaks down and collapses and it is easy to demonstrate they are in error when they imagine a dichotomy between justification and imputed righteousness. Here is the unanswerable evidence:
1 ¶ What shall we say then that Abraham our father, as pertaining to the flesh, hath found?
2 For if Abraham were justified by works, he hath whereof to glory; but not before God.
3 For what saith the scripture? Abraham believed God, and it was counted unto him for righteousness.
4 Now to him that worketh is the reward not reckoned of grace, but of debt.
5 But to him that worketh not, but believeth on him that justifieth the ungodly, his faith is counted for righteousness.
Paul is not arguing about whether Abraham was justified or not, but he is arguing that he was not "justified by works" but by something else. The only other option offered in this entire context to "works" for justification is "by faith." Notice verse 5 and the only two possible options provided "worketh not BUT believeth."
The Jews believed that righteousness was obtained "by works" in addition to "faith" or faithfulness to God's commandments, such a person they regarded as "godly." Paul is refuting that idea as he claims that righteousness and remission of sins is obtained "by faith WITHOUT WORKS" and by one who is "ungodly" with regard to his own person by the standard of God's own righteousness or glory ("fall have sinned and COME SHORT OF THE GLORY of God"). Thus Abraham was not Justified by works but obtained righteousness and remission of sins by faith alone WITHOUT works.
In Paul's mind, justification before God IS based wholly upon being righteous and without sins and therefore to be "justified" must be inclusive of being righteous and without sin before God or one is not justified "before God." Therefore, imputed righteousness and remission of sins are irrefutably inseparable from justification before God.
Van is denying the obvious and manufacturing a dichotomy that does not exist in Romans 3-4. Everything else he bases his arguments on are mere distractions from the real issue. When the real issue is seen, meaning Justification before God IS being righteous and without sin then all the other distractions can be properly addressed.
Since this is the ultimate bottom line upon which both Van's and Darrell's whole theory rests,if they are wrong here they are wrong in all the little diversions they want us to take up valuable time with.
Any objective Bible student can easily and clearly see what I am saying here is absolute indisputable truth. I am not trying to convince either Van or Darrell because that is a fools errand. God alone is capable for doing that. I am simply exposing their error and this truth fully exposes their error.
There is no point in following any other rabbit trail. This issue settles it once and for all. If they are wrong here they are wrong altogether.
In Paul's mind justification is not obtained by works but by faith and what faith obtains is justification or what is defined as imputed righteousness and remission of sins. Abraham is the model of justification by faith both THEN and NOW and no matter how many times Van may deny Abraham was FULLY and COMPLETELY justified Paul places indisputable evidences that Van will never attempt to approach honestly or objectively. Those evidences are aorist and perfect tense verbs and narrowly confined within the time of uncircumcision which proves it was a COMPLETED action. Moreover, the perfect tense takes the reader back to the POINT of faith, which is the ONLY ALTERNATIVE provided by Paul in contrast to "by works." This demonstrates it is a completed action at the point of faith in the promised gospel provision. As a completed action it inherently includes application at that very same point in time and so such a person can be called "The Blessed Man" - vv. 6-8.
The following post bears repeating once again as it has never explicitly addressed by any detractor (and probably never will be by any detractor who has even a little bit of objectivity in them).
It is true, the Old Testament Saint was not justified by their own righteousness, righteousness was imputed based on obedience, faith, and works.
The above statement represents the extreme that those who deny present application of full salvation benefits prior to the cross are forced to embrace.
First, notice the statement is self-contradictory. First, this person says they were not "justified by their own righteousness" and then turns right around and says they were justified by their "obedience...works." No one believes that a person is justified by their own unrighteousness = disobedient works and Paul clearly states that "before God" (not before men as in James 2) Abraham was justified "WITHOUT WORKS." In Romans 4 he is justified without "works" in general (vv. 1-6), without obedience to divine ordinances (vv. 9-12), without obedience to the Divine Law of God (vv. 13-15) and without participating in the provision (vv. 16-21) - thus "without works" performed in the body of Abraham.
We are not justified by "righteousness based on obedience, faith and works" and neither was Abraham or David or any other human being at any time in history.
The above detractor is merging justification with progressive sanctification just as all who preach "another gospel" do.
Now, before I am misrepresented. It is one thing to say we are justified "without works" and quite another thing to claim that justification occurs in a vacuum without regeneration which is manifested in progressive sanctification. I do not believe there is any human at any time justified without works that is not also regenerated which is manifested by the fruits of the Spirit (joy, peace, longsuffering, faith, etc.).
The detractor above will deny this vehemently but he is teaching a false gospel but that is precisely what he is teaching, another way of salvation foreign to the Biblical gospel both before and after the cross. His salvation is what the Bible condemns as "another gospel" which is the merging of justification by faith plus works, Christ plus our obedience. Abraham believed in Christ for justification as revealed in the current gospel revelation (Gal. 3:6-8) and even Christ declared that Abraham did in fact "see" him - meaning sight by faith in the gospel revelation of him and that is the basis of his justification "in Christ" (Gal. 3:17). God's covenant with Abraham was sealed "in Christ" 430 years before the giving of the Old Covenant.
The above statement represents the extreme that those who deny present application of full salvation benefits prior to the cross are forced to embrace.
First, notice the statement is self-contradictory. First, this person says they were not "justified by their own righteousness" and then turns right around and says they were justified by their "obedience...works." No one believes that a person is justified by their own unrighteousness = disobedient works and Paul clearly states that "before God" (not before men as in James 2) Abraham was justified "WITHOUT WORKS." In Romans 4 he is justified without "works" in general (vv. 1-6), without obedience to divine ordinances (vv. 9-12), without obedience to the Divine Law of God (vv. 13-15) and without participating in the provision (vv. 16-21) - thus "without works" performed in the body of Abraham.
We are not justified by "righteousness based on obedience, faith and works" and neither was Abraham or David or any other human being at any time in history.
The above detractor is merging justification with progressive sanctification just as all who preach "another gospel" do.
Now, before I am misrepresented. It is one thing to say we are justified "without works" and quite another thing to claim that justification occurs in a vacuum without regeneration which is manifested in progressive sanctification. I do not believe there is any human at any time justified without works that is not also regenerated which is manifested by the fruits of the Spirit (joy, peace, longsuffering, faith, etc.).
The detractor above will deny this vehemently but he is teaching a false gospel but that is precisely what he is teaching, another way of salvation foreign to the Biblical gospel both before and after the cross. His salvation is what the Bible condemns as "another gospel" which is the merging of justification by faith plus works, Christ plus our obedience. Abraham believed in Christ for justification as revealed in the current gospel revelation (Gal. 3:6-8) and even Christ declared that Abraham did in fact "see" him - meaning sight by faith in the gospel revelation of him and that is the basis of his justification "in Christ" (Gal. 3:17). God's covenant with Abraham was sealed "in Christ" 430 years before the giving of the Old Covenant.
Did the following From Gal 3 apply to Abraham, to those in the wilderness and to David?
YLT Gal 3:23-25 And before the coming of the faith, under law we were being kept, shut up to the faith about to be revealed, so that the law became our child-conductor -- to Christ, (Resurrected, the revealed faith) that by faith we may be declared righteous, and the faith having come, no more under a child-conductor are we, ---- For that declared righteousness, being given the Spirit of adoption makes heirs of the hope of eternal life.
Romans 8:15-17 KJV
For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
Titus 3:6,7 YLT
which He poured upon us richly, through Jesus Christ our Saviour, that having been declared righteous by His grace, heirs we may become according to the hope of life age-during.
YLT Gal 3:26,27 for ye are all sons of God through the faith in Christ Jesus, for as many as to Christ were baptized (Q? by the Spirit of adoption?) did put on Christ;
My question: Is not Christ resurrected, the revealed, faith, by which our righteousness is imputed? Isn't our imputed righteousness essentially, our adoption?
YLT Gal 3:23-25 And before the coming of the faith, under law we were being kept, shut up to the faith about to be revealed, so that the law became our child-conductor -- to Christ, (Resurrected, the revealed faith) that by faith we may be declared righteous, and the faith having come, no more under a child-conductor are we, ---- For that declared righteousness, being given the Spirit of adoption makes heirs of the hope of eternal life.
Romans 8:15-17 KJV
For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father The Spirit itself beareth witness with our spirit, that we are the children of God: And if children, then heirs; heirs of God, and joint-heirs with Christ; if so be that we suffer with him, that we may be also glorified together.
Titus 3:6,7 YLT
which He poured upon us richly, through Jesus Christ our Saviour, that having been declared righteous by His grace, heirs we may become according to the hope of life age-during.
YLT Gal 3:26,27 for ye are all sons of God through the faith in Christ Jesus, for as many as to Christ were baptized (Q? by the Spirit of adoption?) did put on Christ;
My question: Is not Christ resurrected, the revealed, faith, by which our righteousness is imputed? Isn't our imputed righteousness essentially, our adoption?
Absolutely right, Biblicist!
Not only Abraham, but also Abel before him was declared righteous by faith (Hebrews 11:4) when he offered a 'more excellent sacrifice'- that is, a blood sacrifice, looking forward to the Lamb that was slain.
Abel is a prophet (Luke 11:50-51), and though the Bible records none of his words when he was alive, he still speaks to us today, telling us to put our trust in the Lord Jesus Christ and Him crucified.
But we are under a far superior New Covenant, as we have now spiritual blessings in Christ that not experienced by all those saved under old One, such as the Holy Spirit eternally sealing/indwelling them!
And no direct access to throne of God, apart form levitical priests and animal sacrifices...
Those that claim Abel or Abraham were not sinners, separated from God, on the basis they were considered righteous among men are presenting nonsense. If they had been justified, they would have gone straight to the kingdom of God, rather than being consigned to Abraham's bosom. No OT saint ascended to heaven before Christ died, because they had not been justified and made righteous by the blood of Christ.
I see that I missed and did not properly address one of the arguments used to claim Abraham was "justified" by an act of faithful obedience to God. James 2:21 says, "Was not Abraham our father justified by works when he offered up Isaac his son on the altar?" And as was pointed out, the grammar indicates this justification occurred when Abraham offered up Isaac. But is this "justified" the same as being justified by the blood of Christ? Nope. Thus the meaning intended by James is Abraham showed, exhibited that His faith was as it ought to be, alive as demonstrated by works. Thus Abraham "received God's approval" of Abraham's "faithful faith."
Why could this James "justified" not be exactly the same as justification by the blood of Christ. Because they, Abraham, Rehab, Abel, and all the OT saints did not ascend to heaven when they died, they had to wait in Abraham bosom. If they had been justified by the blood of Christ, they would have gone straight to heaven. Therefore Paul's doctrine of justification by faith remains, people are justified when God credits their faith as righteousness, and puts them spiritually in Christ (redeems them) where they justified by His blood.
Why could this James "justified" not be exactly the same as justification by the blood of Christ. Because they, Abraham, Rehab, Abel, and all the OT saints did not ascend to heaven when they died, they had to wait in Abraham bosom. If they had been justified by the blood of Christ, they would have gone straight to heaven. Therefore Paul's doctrine of justification by faith remains, people are justified when God credits their faith as righteousness, and puts them spiritually in Christ (redeems them) where they justified by His blood.
What do you think either Abraham or Abel had to do with Levitical priests?
The animal sacrifices had no salvific benefit in themselves, but pointed to the Lamb of God. It was the faith of the O.T. saints looking forward to Christ that saved them. No one suggests that the new covenant is not a better covenant with better promises, but Abraham is the father of all who believe.
Moreover, a born-again believer like David, when he had committed sins for which the Mosaic covenant gave no way of expiation and demanded the death penalty, could go directly to God (eg. Psalm 51), confess his sins and receive forgiveness.
Six Hour Warning
Some time after 11:00pm Pacific,this thread will be closed.
Some time after 11:00pm Pacific,this thread will be closed.
That is true, yet. Dying David would be dead forever if . the faith had not come, ie the obedience of Christ unto death and the wherefore of Phil 2:9 of being raised from that death on the cross, exalted, therefore David can now be raised from his dying.
The redemption of the body. And though after my skin worms destroy this body, yet in my flesh shall I see God: Job 19:26
There is NO RIGHTEOUSNESS among fallen man before or after Calvary (Rom. 3:9-20). The fallen human nature before and After Calvary is the same in its reponse to God and His law (Rom. 8:7-8). Hence, if anyone is regarded as "righteous" before God before or after Calvary, it is a righteousness FOREIGN to their fallen condition and cannot originate from that fallen nature. It is not of earth or of man but of God. Abel was justified by faith as was Abraham by IMPUTED righteousness based on faith in the gospel of Christ as their redeemer. There is N
THER RIGHTEOUSNESS acceptable to God or "before God" but his own righteousness revealed in the Law and the prophets and made available on "in Christ" POSITIONALLY by faith and as a creative act of regeneration "created in righteousness and true holiness" (Eph. 4:24; Col. 3:10)- period end of story.
THER RIGHTEOUSNESS acceptable to God or "before God" but his own righteousness revealed in the Law and the prophets and made available on "in Christ" POSITIONALLY by faith and as a creative act of regeneration "created in righteousness and true holiness" (Eph. 4:24; Col. 3:10)- period end of story.
This thread is closed.
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