Would say that babies and mentally challenged persons are still sinners before Holy God, but would also say tht the Lord does not see them as yet being personally responsible for their sin natures and actions, as he had decreed that in the Cross of Christ was provision made for him to be able to remit and not hold their personally accountible for their sins...
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Infant Death and Salvation
- Thread starter Darrell C
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Okay, so I will ask you to state what sin the babies and mentally infirm are charged with.
This has been asked several times, and it is actually a good point of discussion.
I personally do not take this view, as I do not see men are conceived/born with sin as though sin is a disease passed down from Adam. I see God judging men individually according to their personal sin, and that this determines the level of judgment that will be imposed on the sinner. In other words, yes, I believe Hitler's eternal torment will far exceed that of the typical sinner. There will be varying degrees of judgment, rather than a one-size-fits-all judgment. We see that principle in passages such as Hebrews 10:26-29, and 2 Peter 2:20-22.
God is seen to justly judge men according to the revelation provided them throughout Scripture, and even more importantly, His grace and mercy is portrayed throughout. An early example would be Cain, who deserved instantaneous death for murdering his brother. God showed mercy on him.
So if you don't mind, could you expand on why you see the infant guilty of sin at conception? This is an interesting question which is of great import to the discussion at hand.
God bless.
Darrell C,
This denial of what the believing church has believed will never lead to a biblical solution.
this followed by your wrong views of the Covenant of Redemption are fatal here.
ok
This denial of what the believing church has believed will never lead to a biblical solution.
this followed by your wrong views of the Covenant of Redemption are fatal here.
.
ok
but...I did...you are unable to receive it at this time.
Darrell C,
This denial of what the believing church has believed will never lead to a biblical solution.
this followed by your wrong views of the Covenant of Redemption are fatal here.
ok
The statement from the confession says......ELECT INFANTS DYING IN INFANCY...
I no where spoke of all infants, so do not imply I did. You have a habit of changing what is discussed in the midst of these long filibuster postings...
Nothing nullifies mans condition.....it does nothing to mans condition.
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Man was already considered as dead and fallen in Adam.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham;
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
you post contradictions many times, then this statement????
This denial of what the believing church has believed will never lead to a biblical solution.
this followed by your wrong views of the Covenant of Redemption are fatal here.
.
ok
but...I did...you are unable to receive it at this time.
.
The statement from the confession says......ELECT INFANTS DYING IN INFANCY...
I no where spoke of all infants, so do not imply I did. You have a habit of changing what is discussed in the midst of these long filibuster postings...
...
Nothing nullifies mans condition.....it does nothing to mans condition.
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Man was already considered as dead and fallen in Adam.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham;
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
you post contradictions many times, then this statement????
Know ye not that the unrighteous shall not inherit the kingdom of God? Be not deceived: neither fornicators, nor idolaters, nor adulterers, nor effeminate, nor abusers of themselves with mankind, Nor thieves, nor covetous, nor drunkards, nor revilers, nor extortioners, shall inherit the kingdom of God.
What are those things underlined, are they not the lust of the flesh?
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, <(anew or from above) he cannot see the kingdom of God. --- Nick understood what being born meant. --- > Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. <---
Doesn't that verse actually say? In order for one to enter the kingdom of God he must be born out of water and of Spirit. --> ἐξ ὕδατος καὶ πνεύματος Both?
And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. ---- The first carries the lust of the flesh, does it not? Do not even newborn babies have the lust of the flesh? Think of food. The second is the righteousness of God.
BTW only entering/inheriting the kingdom of God is spoken of, we have conjured the concept of going to heaven and or the opposite thereof. IMO
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:23 --- Rabbit trail?
What are those things underlined, are they not the lust of the flesh?
Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, <(anew or from above) he cannot see the kingdom of God. --- Nick understood what being born meant. --- > Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?
Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. <---
Doesn't that verse actually say? In order for one to enter the kingdom of God he must be born out of water and of Spirit. --> ἐξ ὕδατος καὶ πνεύματος Both?
And such were some of you: but ye are washed, but ye are sanctified, but ye are justified in the name of the Lord Jesus, and by the Spirit of our God.
That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. ---- The first carries the lust of the flesh, does it not? Do not even newborn babies have the lust of the flesh? Think of food. The second is the righteousness of God.
BTW only entering/inheriting the kingdom of God is spoken of, we have conjured the concept of going to heaven and or the opposite thereof. IMO
For the wages of sin is death; but the gift of God is eternal life through Jesus Christ our Lord. Romans 6:23 --- Rabbit trail?
Darrell C,
Chapter 10: Of Effectual Calling
3._____ Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit; who worketh when, and where, and how he pleases; so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.
( John 3:3, 5, 6; John 3:8 )
4._____ Others not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet not being effectually drawn by the Father, they neither will nor can truly come to Christ, and therefore cannot be saved: much less can men that receive not the Christian religion be saved; be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature and the law of that religion they do profess.
( Matthew 22:14; Matthew 13:20, 21; Hebrews 6:4, 5; John 6:44, 45, 65; 1 John 2:24, 25; Acts 4:12; John 4:22; John 17:3 )
here is one example....you say you actually agree with the posted statements......really???
it does not seem to be so;
In 10:3-Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit
in 10:4-Others not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet not being effectually drawn by the Father, they neither will nor can truly come to Christ, and therefore cannot be saved...
these statements cover all being discussed, those who are elect unto salvation, and those NOT ELECTED.....
you claim to agree then ask this????
First, we still need to address whether there are non-elect infants that go into eternal separation.....?????
where do non elect persons go DC? into limbo????
[/QUOTE]
Chapter 10: Of Effectual Calling
3._____ Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit; who worketh when, and where, and how he pleases; so also are all elect persons, who are incapable of being outwardly called by the ministry of the Word.
( John 3:3, 5, 6; John 3:8 )
4._____ Others not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet not being effectually drawn by the Father, they neither will nor can truly come to Christ, and therefore cannot be saved: much less can men that receive not the Christian religion be saved; be they never so diligent to frame their lives according to the light of nature and the law of that religion they do profess.
( Matthew 22:14; Matthew 13:20, 21; Hebrews 6:4, 5; John 6:44, 45, 65; 1 John 2:24, 25; Acts 4:12; John 4:22; John 17:3 )
here is one example....you say you actually agree with the posted statements......really???
it does not seem to be so;
In 10:3-Elect infants dying in infancy are regenerated and saved by Christ through the Spirit
in 10:4-Others not elected, although they may be called by the ministry of the Word, and may have some common operations of the Spirit, yet not being effectually drawn by the Father, they neither will nor can truly come to Christ, and therefore cannot be saved...
these statements cover all being discussed, those who are elect unto salvation, and those NOT ELECTED.....
you claim to agree then ask this????
First, we still need to address whether there are non-elect infants that go into eternal separation.....?????
where do non elect persons go DC? into limbo????[/QUOTE]
Darrell C,
This denial of what the believing church has believed will never lead to a biblical solution.
this followed by your wrong views of the Covenant of Redemption are fatal here.
ok
The statement from the confession says......ELECT INFANTS DYING IN INFANCY...
I no where spoke of all infants, so do not imply I did. You have a habit of changing what is discussed in the midst of these long filibuster postings...
Nothing nullifies mans condition.....it does nothing to mans condition.
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Mam was already considered as dead and fallen in Adam.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham;
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
This denial of what the believing church has believed will never lead to a biblical solution.
this followed by your wrong views of the Covenant of Redemption are fatal here.
.
ok
but...I did...you are unable to receive it at this time.
.
The statement from the confession says......ELECT INFANTS DYING IN INFANCY...
I no where spoke of all infants, so do not imply I did. You have a habit of changing what is discussed in the midst of these long filibuster postings...
...
Nothing nullifies mans condition.....it does nothing to mans condition.
8 But God commendeth his love toward us, in that, while we were yet sinners, Christ died for us.
Mam was already considered as dead and fallen in Adam.
8 And the scripture, foreseeing that God would justify the heathen through faith, preached before the gospel unto Abraham, saying, In thee shall all nations be blessed.
9 So then they which be of faith are blessed with faithful Abraham;
13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.
14 For they that say such things declare plainly that they seek a country.
15 And truly, if they had been mindful of that country from whence they came out, they might have had opportunity to have returned.
16 But now they desire a better country, that is, an heavenly: wherefore God is not ashamed to be called their God: for he hath prepared for them a city.
So you feel persecuted Darrell? May I suggest the book "STUDIES in the SERMON ON THE MOUNT" by Martyn Lloyd-Jones as a good read!
I try to do a chapter a day & it has enlightened me as to Christs teachings.......its been a valuable tool. Now I will tell you that that same book was a Christmas present from a Saint who thought it would enlighten me.....and it sat on my book shelve for about 20 years till I had the sense I was missing something & needed it. WHAT A GIFT! WHAT A GIFT!!!
Original Sin, as God imputes to those who are only born of the flesh with his sin, and then we all confirm that sinner state by choosing and doing sinful acts...
We are ALL conceived in sin, born with sin natures bent away from God, but the Lord can also choose to remit and not hold personally accounyible for their own states those such as Infants/mentally challenged, due to the Grace of the Cross///
In like fashion, God imputes unto all saved in Christ and reborn anew HIS rightiousness now...
So God decided to clothe and cover in that blood those such as discussed here...
Romans 1:
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Are those mentioned in the thread with excuse or without?
Joel 3:19 Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness, for the violence against the children of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land.
When did Egypt shed innocent blood of the Hebrews? Possibly when they drowned all the baby boys.
Psalms 106:
Psalms 106: 35 But were mingled among the heathen, and learned their works.
36 And they served their idols: which were a snare unto them.
37 Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto devils,
38 And shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan: and the land was polluted with blood.
They shed the blood of their infant children to sacrifice and that blood was innocent.
If they were innocent what would that entail?
One more question were Adam and Eve naked in the garden?
Genesis 2:25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
Notice they were not ashamed they didn't know any better but then we see Genesis 3:And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
Once they had the knowledge of good and evil then they were naked and afraid of god, they knew right from wrong and until a person reaches that age of knowing right from wrong then they are in innocence. God held Adam accountable not for being naked or sinning before he ate of the tree but he became accountable and death came when Adam disobeyed God and ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Why was he held accountable because at that point he knew good and he knew evil, he knew what was not sin and what was sin. So too with those in the question of this thread.
20 For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:
Are those mentioned in the thread with excuse or without?
Joel 3:19 Egypt shall be a desolation, and Edom shall be a desolate wilderness, for the violence against the children of Judah, because they have shed innocent blood in their land.
When did Egypt shed innocent blood of the Hebrews? Possibly when they drowned all the baby boys.
Psalms 106:
Psalms 106: 35 But were mingled among the heathen, and learned their works.
36 And they served their idols: which were a snare unto them.
37 Yea, they sacrificed their sons and their daughters unto devils,
38 And shed innocent blood, even the blood of their sons and of their daughters, whom they sacrificed unto the idols of Canaan: and the land was polluted with blood.
They shed the blood of their infant children to sacrifice and that blood was innocent.
If they were innocent what would that entail?
One more question were Adam and Eve naked in the garden?
Genesis 2:25 And they were both naked, the man and his wife, and were not ashamed.
Notice they were not ashamed they didn't know any better but then we see Genesis 3:And he said, I heard thy voice in the garden, and I was afraid, because I was naked; and I hid myself.
Once they had the knowledge of good and evil then they were naked and afraid of god, they knew right from wrong and until a person reaches that age of knowing right from wrong then they are in innocence. God held Adam accountable not for being naked or sinning before he ate of the tree but he became accountable and death came when Adam disobeyed God and ate of the tree of the knowledge of good and evil. Why was he held accountable because at that point he knew good and he knew evil, he knew what was not sin and what was sin. So too with those in the question of this thread.
So you would agree that there is an Age of accountibility before God, maybe no set age, but a time when the person passes over to now being held accountible before God going forward?
Yes
that which hath been born of the flesh is flesh, John 3:6 Example a new born baby in the likeness of Adam. Rom 5:12 Wherefore, as by one man sin (singular) entered into the world, and death (singular) by sin; (singular) and so death passed upon all men, for that all have sinned: Rom 8:3 YLT for what the law was not able to do, in that it was weak through the flesh, God, His own Son having sent in the likeness of sinful flesh, and for sin, did condemn the sin (singular) in the flesh,
YLT 2 Cor 5:21 for him who did not know sin, in our behalf He (God the Father) did make sin, that we may become the righteousness of God in him. HOW? By raising him from the dead giving him the promise of the Holy Spirit which he then shed on us. That is the grace of God by which we can made righteous (justified) and become heirs of the hope of eternal life in the kingdom of God.
Titus 3:6,7 Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
1 Cor 15:50,53 Now this I say, brethren, that flesh and blood cannot inherit the kingdom of God; neither doth corruption inherit incorruption.
For this corruptible must put on incorruption, and this mortal must put on immortality.
Do we reach out, in our faith, or any other way and take the Holy Spirit or is it the gift of God which will: But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you.???
BTW consider this relative to that: John 7:35 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.) BTW given is not in the Greek.
yes....at conception.....
Except the Bible seems to indicate otherwise....
So would that mean no one who has not yet received jesus thru faith would be saved period?
or do you think Infants get saving faith?
Could you show where?is that the part where children under 20 yrs old did not die in the flood
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This has been answered
And that is what we are trying to do here, Iconoclast, discuss the issue and help each other to come to a reasoned conclusion, but you are making that a little difficult.
Just because you think commentaries are the final answer doesn't mean I have to.
I can justify a position that men are separated from God upon conception, but it is up to you to justify that men are conceived already having sin which they have committed. It is up to you to provide the Scripture that states Adam's sin is inherited by his offspring.
Not from commentaries, but from Scripture.
this followed by your wrong views of the Covenant of Redemption are fatal here.
So show me from Scripture...how my views of the Covenant of Redemption are fatally wrong.
Just making the statement might make you feel better, but it would be helpful if you could point out what I said is wrong, replace that with what is right, and do so from Scripture...not the teachings of men.
That's all you have to do.
Ok?
Its not okay, you haven't even addressed the issue.
Here it is again, and I will give the beginning of the discussion:
Darrell C said:
Iconoclast said:
(emphasis not mine)
Iconoclast said:
Iconoclast said:
Darrell C said:
How does the fact that God is Omniscient address the issue?
It for you to show these men were reconciled to God through Christ, and you will have to deal with many numerous New Testament passages that deny that view.
Whenever you are ready to get started let me know.
Now, perhaps if I simply ask one question you will answer it: are men in Covenant Relationship with God from the womb? It is okay if you want to stipulate the Elect. Are the Elect in Covenant Relationship with God at conception, in the womb, and if so...
...give me the Scripture.
Continued...
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