Featured Keeping the Passover in order to be saved

A Jew is a member of the religion of Judaism. You're only lying to yourself when
misquote Paul saying he's an Israelite of the tribe of Benjamin. Repeating your error doesn't change anything.

No, I act is if all the Bible translators from Wycliffe onward know the Bible better than you do. (They don't capitalize AS, as you did.)

In fact, you've been shown scripture that shows that God prohibited gentiles from observing Passover, unless they convert and become Jews and [as] natives of Israel.

You know nothing about the beliefs of Orthodox Jews. Don't project your misunderstanding of Jews onto them.

Jesus observed Passover before the Church was established and before he became our Passover lamb.

 

That is correct as far as it goes. However, gentile Christians are required NOT to observe it. Under the Old Covenant, only those gentiles who submitted to circumcision were permitted to take part, and Paul tells us, 'Indeed I, Paul, say to you that if you become circumcised, Christ will profit you nothing' (Galatians 5:2-3). Christians must have nothing to do with the Old Covenant ceremonial law (Colossians 2:11-23). It was 'obsolete' and 'ready to pass away' when the letter to the Hebrews was written. With the fall of Jerusalem in AD 70, the whole Old Covenant system is finished. The shadow has given way to the reality which is Christ.

Judaism is another religion, so its followers are free to do what they like. As with Moslems, Buddhists and others, we need to be pointing Jews to Christ.

So is any church that allows its members to observe Passover.

BTW, this is not 'replacement theology' but 'Inclusion Theology.' 'For [Christ] Himself is our peace, who has made both [Jew and Gentile] one, and has broken down the middle wall of separation, having abolished in His flesh the enmity, that is, the law of commandments contained in ordinances, so as to create in Himself one new man from the two, thus making peace' (Ephesians 2:14-15). One people of God; converted Jew and converted Gentile, together in one Church.

 

And my only point was that all tribes of Israel returned to Judah, Robycop. I gave the Scripture I base that on, and if you would like to discuss it, great. But I am not concerned with discussing who is and who isn't a Jew today.


God bless.

 

And how is that relevant to anything I said?


God bless.

 

Sir, you mighta misunderstood Paul a little. I believe he meant that one could not be saved by following "Mosaic" law without coming to Jesus. He did NOT forbid anyone, Jew or otherwise to not be circuncised or observe passover, Sabbaths, etc. I believe he meant that those rites & observances avail one nothing without JESUS. Remember, Jesus, as a man, observed all those things, observing passover just hours before His crucifixion.

But I wholeheartedly agree there's but one way of salvation, through Jesus, for all, Jew or gentile.

 

So, ya still don't believe Paul was a Jew?

Acts 21:39, NASV...""But Paul said, “I am a Jew of Tarsus in Cilicia, a citizen of no insignificant city; and I beg you, allow me to speak to the people.”""

Acts 22:3, KJV..."""I am verily a man which am a Jew, born in Tarsus, a city in Cilicia, yet brought up in this city at the feet of Gamaliel, and taught according to the perfect manner of the law of the fathers, and was zealous toward God, as ye all are this day."""

So tell us again Paul wasn't a Jew!

Again-Did Sammy Davis Jr. become white when he "converted" to Judaism?

THEY-not I-added "as". They did so for a reason. So, you still believe you know more than they do or did? If so, how about writing us a new Bible?

MMRRPP! WRONG!

They were to observe the SAME RULES as the Israelis.

Evidently I know more about them than YOU. I've had Jewish neighbors my whole life, and I have consulted a rabbi more than once about the meanings of certain Hebrew words/phrases. And I know their beliefs about building a new temple. While I try to steer them to Jesus, it'll take the HOLY SPIRIT'S power to open their eyes. But I'll still follow Jesus' command to plant the seeds.

And He said He must do ALL THAT IS GOOD. He did NOT abolish passover, nor did He replace Israel and Judah with the Church in prophecy.

 

I already pointed out that Paul is the only Christian in the Bible referred to as a Jew. I know I'm talking to someone who wn't listen, but I'll give you reasoning anyway by repeating what I've already told you: Paul practiced Judaism, even as a Christian, therefor you can't use him to establish that the the term "Jew" is used as a racial term. Paul also didn't present himself as a Jew to Christians or gentiles.

In the Bible, the many Hebrew Christians are not referred to as Jews. And, the Bible frequently speaks of Jews as distinct from Christians.

Your theology is not from the Bible.

You're racist. God isn't racist.

You flat out don't believe the Bible. Gentiles weren't merely required to observe the same rules as Jews to observe Passover. They were required to convert. You. Don't. Believe. The. Bible.

You flat out don't believe the Bile. Gentiles are prohibited form observing Passover. You. Don't. Believe. The. Bible.

ESV Exodus 12:48 48 If a stranger shall sojourn with you and would keep the Passover to the Lord, let all his males be circumcised. Then he may come near and keep it; he shall be as a native of the land. But no uncircumcised person shall eat of it.

LXX Exodus 12:48 And if any proselyte shall come to you to keep the passover to the Lord, thou shalt circumcise every male of him, and then shall he approach to sacrifice it, and he shall be even as the original inhabitant of the land; no uncircumcised person shall eat of it.

How do you know they were Jews? Did they show you racial proof? Did you recognize them as Jews by their big hook noses, and that they weren't black like Sammy Davis Jr.?

What you sound like to me: "I know Obama smokes crack, because blacks believe in crack smoking. I had a black neighbor, so I know."

But, back to religion, you know nothing about the beliefs of Jews, so you didn't learn about Jews from you Jewish neighbor. A temple is not important in their religion, at least not until their Messiah comes, and even that is just academic.

 

Thank you for your cordial response. However, I don't believe that Galatians 5:1-6 can be interpreted in the way you suggest.

The context and issue is clearly that of Christians keeping the Jewish ceremonial law, personified here by circumcision (cf. Acts 15:5). In v.1, Paul is telling the Galatian Christians that they should not abandon their freedom in Christ from Jewish ritual. If the Galatians were considering abandoning Christ altogether in favour of Judaism, he would not be saying (v.2) that Christ would not benefit them if they became circumcised. What he's saying is that salvation is by Christ ALONE. To add to it Jewish ritual, which is what the Judaizers were teaching, is 'a different gospel' (cf. Galatians 1:6-9).

These Galatian Christians were being told that they needed not only Christ crucified, but also the Mosaic ritual that has been fulfilled in Christ. No, says Paul, you can't do that. 'If I build again those things which I destroyed, I make myself a transgressor' (Galatians 2:18). To rebuild the 'middle wall of separation' (Ephesians 2:14) which the Lord Jesus has abolished, is to construct another Gospel.

Indeed so. The Lord Jesus observed all the Mosaic laws during His time on earth, but at His death, the curtain of the temple was torn in two, symbolizing the free entry into God's presence for all those for whom He died and the rapidly-approaching end of the Mosaic covenant (Hebrews 8:13).

Amen!

 

Guess we're gonna hafta agree to disagree on this 'n. By all indications, Paul followed most Jewish rites & laws, except we don't find him offering sacrifices any more.

 

Paul took part in sacrifices. Paul did it specifically to demonstrate himself to be a Jew. Paul was Jew because he continued to practice Judaism to be a Jew to Jews.

Acts 21:26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.

 

MMRRPP! WRONG!

I just cited two verses from Acts that say he DID! And you forgot, Peter wouldn't sit at a table with some gentiles, and Paul admonished him for it. While Scripture doesn't say Peter was a Jew, the implication is pretty clear.

Romans 3:29, NASV..."""
Or is God the God of Jews only? Is He not the God of Gentiles also? Yes, of Gentiles also,"""

Romans 9:24, NASV..."""even us, whom He also called, not from among Jews only, but also from among Gentiles."""

A racial Jew remained a racial Jew if he became a Christian, same as today.

I know the difference between you and cocaine-one's a drug; the other's a dope. Look who's talking! You seemta believe a Jew becomes another race or nationality when he becomes a Christian, or a gentile becomes an Israeli by practicing Judaism. That, coupled with your heretical "replacement theology", proves YOU don't follow Scripture, but try to re-define it according to the doctrines of men.

You're three Fries shorta a happy Meal. YOU try to change someone's race, as you did in the discussion about gentiles who wished to observe passover in ancient israel.

I don't believe YOU, who are just another quack.

Same verse, NIV..."""A foreigner residing among you who wants to celebrate the Lord’s Passover must have all the males in his household circumcised; then he may take part like one born in the land. No uncircumcised male may eat it."""

This rendering is better than the KJV's, which, if strictly read, excludes all females from passover. But EVERY translation I've ever seen reads "like' or "as". But whatever those peoples' national origin, that's what they remained! They became practitioners of God's laws & statutes, and apparently served Him with a whole heart, as the Israelis didn't FORCE them to worship as the Israelis did. (Remember, this was the ONLY true worship of God til Jesus came. It was not then called "Judaism".)

You just don't like the verses' reading "as" or "like". The translators inserted that word for a reason. I shall consult a rabbi friend , and most likely, will prove you wrong yet again.

How goofy! Their names were Cohen, Goldberg,etc. & they practiced Judaism

I recommend you wait for 2 hours after huffing your bong before you post again. You're getting goofier as you go.

Just ask any Orthodox Jew if they intend to build a new temple or not! They're already breeding red heifers & other animals in Israel to use in their rites. OF COURSE it's not Christian, but the Jews are preparing to re-institute the "Mosaic" system again. That's why I say your knowledge of the Jews is puny...you don't know those BASIC FACTS.

But again, like it or not, ISRAEL IS GOD'S PECULIAR PEOPLE! (Ex.. 19:5, Deut. 14:2 & 26:18, Ps. 135:4) He did NOT replace them in prophecy with the Church! While any Israeli may join the Church, it's not automatic, and the prophecies to Israel and Judah will be fulfilled in THOSE PEOPLE! Proof? Against all human odds, the Jews have their own sovereign nation again, with Jerusalem as its capital.

Try believing your Bible AS WRITTEN, as you said in another thread, and drop the cultic practice of changing the meanings of verses to fit a man-made doctrine!

 

You say Peter, a man circumcised and raised in Judaism, was a Jew because of you think he was practicing Judaism, and therefor you conclude "Jew" means a race?? If Paul, an apostle to the gentiles, continued to practice Judaism for the sake of being a jew to the jews, I'd expect the same of Peter, an apostle to the circumcised. But, he'd be a Jew because he was circumcised and maintained the observance, not because of his race.

In context, Paul defines Jew as a circumcised believer (read the very next verse). God is the God of both the circumcised (saints in the old covenant) and the uncircumcised (saints outside of the old covenant).

Both the Bible and modern Jews make no distinction between a convert to Judaism and one "born a Jew" (really, someone raised in the faith, even if only nominally). Your concept of Jews as a race is an artifact of your bad doctrine. You do know that people can convert to Judaisms, don't you?

You know the verse that insturctions gentgiles to convert to Judaism and that they then becomes native of the land of Israel. But, Anno Domini, a convert to Christianity becomes a citizen of Israel (read Ephesians 2)

If you chose to be intelligent, here's what would happen:

1) You say a convert becames AS a native of the land of Israel, and therefor is not of Israel.
2) I point out to you that AS is added by translators because of the logical impossibility of changing one's place of birth. But, "AS" only means that a convert should be considered a native of land, which is no distinction from a native.
3) You reply, "I see what scripture is saying, now."

What not to reply:
3) you say all your translations say AS.

The dumbest thing about your position is how you conflate race and practice.

Those Jewish last names have only been around a few centuries and converts to Judaism take Jewish names. Stop arguing from ignorance. BTW, where did you live that you had neighbors named Cohen and Goldberg and Etc.? It sounds like you're just making up those Jewish neighbors, else you would have given less stereotypical names, and not had to have a series ending in Etc.

That's cr *p you eat up from from televangelist phonies, not from talking to any orthodox Jews.

Yes, the Church is God's peculiar people.

Against what odds? Catering to minority interests is common. How come, with their god behind them, they need so much foreign aid from the US?

 

Just in case you're interested:


Acts 21:17-28

King James Version (KJV)


17 And when we were come to Jerusalem, the brethren received us gladly.

18 And the day following Paul went in with us unto James; and all the elders were present.

19 And when he had saluted them, he declared particularly what things God had wrought among the Gentiles by his ministry.

20 And when they heard it, they glorified the Lord, and said unto him, Thou seest, brother, how many thousands of Jews there are which believe; and they are all zealous of the law:

21 And they are informed of thee, that thou teachest all the Jews which are among the Gentiles to forsake Moses, saying that they ought not to circumcise their children, neither to walk after the customs.

22 What is it therefore? the multitude must needs come together: for they will hear that thou art come.

23 Do therefore this that we say to thee: We have four men which have a vow on them;

24 Them take, and purify thyself with them, and be at charges with them, that they may shave their heads: and all may know that those things, whereof they were informed concerning thee, are nothing; but that thou thyself also walkest orderly, and keepest the law.

25 As touching the Gentiles which believe, we have written and concluded that they observe no such thing, save only that they keep themselves from things offered to idols, and from blood, and from strangled, and from fornication.

26 Then Paul took the men, and the next day purifying himself with them entered into the temple, to signify the accomplishment of the days of purification, until that an offering should be offered for every one of them.

27 And when the seven days were almost ended, the Jews which were of Asia, when they saw him in the temple, stirred up all the people, and laid hands on him,

28 Crying out, Men of Israel, help: This is the man, that teacheth all men every where against the people, and the law, and this place: and further brought Greeks also into the temple, and hath polluted this holy place.


What would you think about this?


God bless.

 

You get goofier as you go. Peter was a Jew cuz he was descended from Jacob.

I've never said otherwise.

A Jew is descended from one of Jacob's sons, Judah, Benjamin, ot Levi.

You know the verse that insturctions gentgiles to convert to Judaism and that they then becomes native of the land of Israel. But, Anno Domini, a convert to Christianity becomes a citizen of Israel (read Ephesians 2)

I'm obviously 'WAY aheada YOU, especially in the rejection of false doctrines, and COMMON SENSE.

One dumb thing from you is your apparently believing one changes his/her heritage, race, or national origin by converting to a given religion. An Arab Moslem who became a Christian and an American citizen would still be an Arab by descent, race, & national origin.

And you have no idea who my neighbors were or are!

WOW! I've been talking to a mind-reader! Now, ya assume to know whom I've talked to in my own 'hood! Do ya also do palm-reading?

No, Smyth, NO! I just posted verses where GOD says whom His peculiar people are! Now, while the Church is His SAVED people, it does NOT replace Israel in prophecy! This view, known as "replacement theology" or "supersessionism", is a false doctrine of largely-catholic origin, and is completely false, as the history of the Jews proves.

The Jews are easily the most-persecuted distinct people in history that have survived as a distinct people. That's an indisputable fact. And a brief study of history shows the human odds a hundred years ago of the Jews' having a sovereign nation again, and especially of having Jerusalem as its capital, were enormous. But BY GOD'S POWER, that nation became a reality, and after the 1967 war, the possibility of having jerusalem as its capital became reality. This is the beginning of God's restoration of ALL ISRAEL, as He prophesied more than once. it's a separate set of events from the existence of the Church.

Now, while any Israeli can join the Church, of course, the fulfillment of the prophecies to Israel and Judah are separate from the Church.

 

How does a convert change his ancestry?

So, you don't think people can convert to Judaism?

The KKK is more more persecuted, and essentially for the same reason, their hostility to others.

 

The KKK is "more persecuted" than Jews?


God bless.

 

he/she DOESN'T. But YOU said as much with your apparent disbelief of Bible verses that say "AS a native of the land', etc.

How silly! OF COURSE I do. But that doesn't change their ancestry.

The more you go on, the goofier you get. That bloviation isn't worth a reply.

 

I'm starting to believe that person's tractor doesn't make full pulls.

Meanwhile, back at the ranch........

This has gotten entirely-away from the subject of keeping passover. I certainly do NOT believe anyone MUST keep passover to be saved, but Jews should keep it cuz GOD said it was to be observed FOR EVER. But nowhere in Scripture is anyone, Jew or otherwise, required to keep passover to be saved, and Scripture is our final authority in all matters of faith and worship.

 

1) You've been told AS is added by the translators, that is easiest enough for you to verify.
2) What difference does make?

Grow up.

 

Take your own advice. I believe all those Bible translators from Wycliffe to modern ones know/knew more than I, & I accept their use of 'as' in the verse in question. I also accept REALITY. Sammy Davis Jr. remained an African American with brown skin after he converted to Judaism, and Zora levitt remained a Jew after he became a Christian.

But no one MUST keep passover to be saved. That's the theme of this thread.