Why is New Birth necessary?

[Darrell C]

As yet no one has provided anything with substance to Contradict one word I said.

A couple arguments presented in opposition to the OP are simple points: Christ does not ever say man must be born of flesh and born of the Spirit...in order to enter the Kingdom of God. Yet you present physical birth as somehow relevant to Christ's teaching in John 3.

Another that refutes your position is that not even the Disciples of Christ were believing on Christ as the Risen Savior. Yet you teach that men were "circumcised of the heart" which is equivalent to the new birth as taught in the New Testament.

So your boast is hollow.

Again, this is how it works: you say something, I address it. I say something, you address it.

Debate forums do not make very good pulpits, my friend, and if you are used to people just taking your word for it, you are going to have issues when you deal with people who only take God's Word for anything.

We have had a poster just posting nonsense personal opinions

So it is nonsense that the disciples were unbelievers?

And it isn't nonsense that "...every truth has interpretational issues with a few passages?"

and irrational statements

So point out what is irrational.

based on strawman argument's circular reasoning

So point out the straw man that is circular reasoning.

but so far no one has been able to provide any practical and or biblical objections

Claiming this does not make it a reality.

You are challenged to back up your charges against me.

That's what we do on a debate forum, Biblicist.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

I have to say that I have learned something from this thread.

And there is more to be learned if you are interested.

I did not know there was anyone on this board or even in existence who called themselves a Christian and believed men were not born again in the OT.

Now you know.

And I will tell you it is an indisputable Bible Truth and that is one of the reasons several here are so upset...because they cannot justify men being born again prior to Pentecost.

I will just give an example of unbelief in the very disciples of Christ:


Mark 16:9-16

King James Version (KJV)


9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

10 And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.

11 And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.

12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.

13 And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.

14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.


Now, would you agree the eleven disciples are not believing Christ arose from the dead?

Does Christ not make it clear that those that believe shall be saved (and lets not get into baptism, just focus on belief and unbelief)? And that those who do not believe...

...shall be damned?

Do we really see the disciple "looking forward to the Cross" as is taught by many?

Complete news to me.

Its a great study. I hope you wil give it some thought before concluding as you have.

Further, it is unorthodox and contrary to scripture.

Not at all.

Let me ask you this: can one be born again and not...

...be eternally indwelt of God?

The disciples were not eternally indwelt:


John 14:15-18

King James Version (KJV)


15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.




John 14:20-23

King James Version (KJV)


20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


Were the disciple indwelt of Christ, Rev? Or is Christ teaching clearly that they will be indwelt of God the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost...at a future date?

In fact such an idea is not even necessary.

It is critical to understand if you want to preach the Gospel of Christ in its full glory.

And it is particularly difficult to understand why, when Scripture makes it clear that the disciple were clueless to Christ's Ministry as the Savior in the eternal perspective, we see so few who have actually given this any thought.

Can I ask you this, judging by your reaction here, is it safe to say you have never actually given this any thought?

And can I ask you this, don't you think it might be a little embarrassing for someone who may have been teaching and preaching for many many years...to acknowledge that they had not?

And worse...that it might actually be true?

Very odd.

Not really. When we see that Eternal Redemption was obtained through the Offering of Christ, that the Just of the Old Testament was made perfect (complete) through Christ, and that the sins of the Old Testament Saint were not forgiven until Christ died in their sins...it makes perfect sense.

Consider:


Hebrews 9:12-15

King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


Under the Old Testament Provision remission of sins was accomplished through vicarious death of animals.

Under the New Covenant the Provision is that of Christ. His Offering.

When we say men were born again we must also clarify what that means exactly. I will simply say that the New Birth is the result of the Promise of God in the Old Testament, the sending of the Promised Spirit. We are new creatures due to the Eternal Indwelling.

So when the New Birth began to take place is relevant, and in fact the heart of the issue.

There is much that has to be looked at in order to understand this, and unfortunately many will reject it immediately because it doesn't match the understanding they have for years held, which is not strange, because it would seem correct to look at the disciples of Christ as Christians. That they were saved is true. Among the Elect, yes. But, they did not receive the Eternal Indwelling of God prior to the sending of the Spirit by Christ. It would not be until after Christ was glorified that He would, as He promised, return and indwell the disciples.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

YES......rule 5 prohibits trolling.....

Apparently they don't mind overlooking that in your case.




God bless.

 

[percho]

And there is more to be learned if you are interested.




Now you know.

And I will tell you it is an indisputable Bible Truth and that is one of the reasons several here are so upset...because they cannot justify men being born again prior to Pentecost.

I will just give an example of unbelief in the very disciples of Christ:


Mark 16:9-16

King James Version (KJV)


9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

10 And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.

11 And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.

12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.

13 And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.

14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.

15 And he said unto them, Go ye into all the world, and preach the gospel to every creature.

16 He that believeth and is baptized shall be saved; but he that believeth not shall be damned.


Now, would you agree the eleven disciples are not believing Christ arose from the dead?

Does Christ not make it clear that those that believe shall be saved (and lets not get into baptism, just focus on belief and unbelief)? And that those who do not believe...

...shall be damned?

Do we really see the disciple "looking forward to the Cross" as is taught by many?




Its a great study. I hope you wil give it some thought before concluding as you have.




Not at all.

Let me ask you this: can one be born again and not...

...be eternally indwelt of God?

The disciples were not eternally indwelt:


John 14:15-18

King James Version (KJV)


15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.




John 14:20-23

King James Version (KJV)


20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


Were the disciple indwelt of Christ, Rev? Or is Christ teaching clearly that they will be indwelt of God the Father, Son, and Holy Ghost...at a future date?




It is critical to understand if you want to preach the Gospel of Christ in its full glory.

And it is particularly difficult to understand why, when Scripture makes it clear that the disciple were clueless to Christ's Ministry as the Savior in the eternal perspective, we see so few who have actually given this any thought.

Can I ask you this, judging by your reaction here, is it safe to say you have never actually given this any thought?

And can I ask you this, don't you think it might be a little embarrassing for someone who may have been teaching and preaching for many many years...to acknowledge that they had not?

And worse...that it might actually be true?




Not really. When we see that Eternal Redemption was obtained through the Offering of Christ, that the Just of the Old Testament was made perfect (complete) through Christ, and that the sins of the Old Testament Saint were not forgiven until Christ died in their sins...it makes perfect sense.

Consider:


Hebrews 9:12-15

King James Version (KJV)

12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.

13 For if the blood of bulls and of goats, and the ashes of an heifer sprinkling the unclean, sanctifieth to the purifying of the flesh:

14 How much more shall the blood of Christ, who through the eternal Spirit offered himself without spot to God, purge your conscience from dead works to serve the living God?

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


Under the Old Testament Provision remission of sins was accomplished through vicarious death of animals.

Under the New Covenant the Provision is that of Christ. His Offering.

When we say men were born again we must also clarify what that means exactly. I will simply say that the New Birth is the result of the Promise of God in the Old Testament, the sending of the Promised Spirit. We are new creatures due to the Eternal Indwelling.

So when the New Birth began to take place is relevant, and in fact the heart of the issue.

There is much that has to be looked at in order to understand this, and unfortunately many will reject it immediately because it doesn't match the understanding they have for years held, which is not strange, because it would seem correct to look at the disciples of Christ as Christians. That they were saved is true. Among the Elect, yes. But, they did not receive the Eternal Indwelling of God prior to the sending of the Spirit by Christ. It would not be until after Christ was glorified that He would, as He promised, return and indwell the disciples.


God bless.

15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.

They which are called, from above.

Titus 3:6,7 Which (Holt Spirit from verse 5) he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Eph 1:13,14 YLT in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth -- the good news of your salvation -- in whom also having believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of the promise, which is an earnest of our inheritance, to the redemption of the acquired possession, to the praise of His glory.

heard the word of the truth -- the good news of your salvation ----Is that the faith that is heard by which one receives the Holy Spirit? See Gal 3:2,14

Does a 40 year old man sitting in church one day or sitting on the fishing bank one day reading the word of God suddenly believe something and for that belief God gives him the Holy Spirit OR Does God call a man, give him, shed on him, the Holy Spirit translating him from the ignorance and unbelief he was born in, unto belief because Jesus died for his sins and because God the Father raised Jesus from the dead? The Faith and the Grace. Did Jesus the Son of God, have to learn and become obedient unto death and be raised from the dead, glorified, before the Holy Spirit of God could be available to be given any man who ever has or will live?

Can God do that exact same thing for a new born baby? Does that baby have to understand anything in order for God to give him the Holy Spirit?

What will the Spirit do for one at the coming of Christ?

But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Romans 8:11
Verse 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 1 Cor 15:51
2 Cor 5:4,5 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

Once again. What had to take place in order for the Holt Spirit to be available to do the above?

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 1 Peter 3:18
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Heb 5:9
For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. Heb 2:10

Hebrews 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

Even today we are receiving a good report through faith. Through Jesus dead and raised from the dead. YLT Eph 2:10 for of Him we are workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to good works, which God did before prepare, that in them we may walk.

God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. Hebrews 11:40

 

[The Biblicist]

Still waiting for anyone to respond to the evidence I set forth with any substance, or something reasonable to consider. One poster was hilarious. Can you imagine anyone with two grains of common sense actually making the following argument "Christ does not ever say man must be born of flesh and born of the Spirit...in order to enter the Kingdom of God."

A person would have to be a complete idiot to ever say "man not born of the flesh must be born of the Spirit in order to enter the kingdom of God" since "man" and "born of the flesh" are synonynyms (lol). Is there any such thing as a "man" not "born of the flesh" in the sense of physical birth? If so, then how did he become a "man" without being "born of the flesh"? Isn'ti every "man" born of the flesh? So when Jesus says "THAT which is born of the flesh is flesh" is there any possibility he is excluding anyone born like "THAT" but must be including everyone born like "THAT"???? In other words, it is "THAT" condition which "MUST" be born again (v. 7) as it is "THAT" condition which has the sin problem which needs the contextual solution spelled out for this poor poster in verses 15-21.

15 That whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have eternal life.
16 For God so loved the world, that he gave his only begotten Son, that whosoever believeth in him should not perish, but have everlasting life.
17 For God sent not his Son into the world to condemn the world; but that the world through him might be saved.
18 He that believeth on him is not condemned: but he that believeth not is condemned already, because he hath not believed in the name of the only begotten Son of God.
19 And this is the condemnation, that light is come into the world, and men loved darkness rather than light, because their deeds were evil.
20 For every one that doeth evil hateth the light, neither cometh to the light, lest his deeds should be reproved.
21 But he that doeth truth cometh to the light, that his deeds may be made manifest, that they are wrought in God.

The only possible exception of any man born of the flesh that would not need to be born of the Spirit is the kind that did not come into this world condemned already and therefore does not have "THAT" natural birth condition described in verses 18-21 or its solution.

So, if the poster can find any "man" who does not have that condition than of course he has found one 'born of the flesh" that does not need to be "born of the Spirit' to enter the kingdom of God.

However, I have stopped addressing the poster who made this hilarious argument simply because you cannot reason with anyone who repeatedly demonstrates they are so blind, arrogant and unreasonable. It is like throwing peals before swine. I asked for anyone to provide PRACTICAL reasons why natural born humans characterized by the fallen nature which is synonymous with having a WRONG HEART CONDITION can be changed without that change being internal, supernatural and not the new birth?

God describes this sin problem as a HEART CONDITION in Deuteronomy 5:29 on the very day he gave the ten commandments proving that the law or old covenant could not change this condition because no natural born man had a heart that would obey God:

Deut. 5:29 O that there were such an heart in them, that they would fear me, and keep all my commandments always, that it might be well with them, and with their children for ever!

No man is born with such a heart because if they were then God would not have to say "O that there were such a heart in them, that they would......" So every man "born of the flesh" needs a new heart in order to obey God and that heart must be given to them by God:

Deut. 29:4 Yet the LORD hath not given you an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear, unto this day.

If such a heart came by being "born of the flesh" then God would not have to "give.....an heart to perceive, and eyes to see, and ears to hear."

The entire Old Testament bears witness that all who are "born of the flesh" have an evil heart of unbelief that is at "enmity with God and is not subject to the law of God and neither indeed can be, SO
then they that are in the flesh cannot please God.
9 But ye are not in the flesh, but in the Spirit, if so be that the Spirit of God dwell in you. Now if any man have not the Spirit of Christ, he is none of his.

What Paul taught the Romans here in Romans 8:7-9 the Prophets taught Israel:

Jer 13:23 Can the Ethiopian change his skin, or the leopard his spots? then may ye also do good, that are accustomed to do evil.

Psa. 14:2 The LORD looked down from heaven upon the children of men, to see if there were any that did understand, and seek God.
3 They are all gone aside, they are all together become filthy: there is none that doeth good, no, not one.

Not only Moses bears witness of such an evil immutable heart that characterizes all who are "born of the flesh" but so do all the prophets and Jesus and the apostles. This IS the common problem for all who are "born of the flesh"

Jer 17:9 The heart is deceitful above all things, and desperately wicked: who can know it?

Jer 16:12 And ye have done worse than your fathers; for, behold, ye walk every one after the imagination of his evil heart, that they may not hearken unto me:

Ge 6:5 And GOD saw that the wickedness of man was great in the earth, and that every imagination of the thoughts of his heart was only evil continually.

It does not matter when or where they are born as all who are "born of the flesh" have this same common problem and it is oxymoronic to even suggest obedience to the Old Covenant can remedy that problem when the problem is a disobedient heart.

There is but ONE solution to this internal irreversable heart condition of all who are 'born of the flesh" and that is to be "born of the Spirit" which is defined as God giving a new heart or an obedient heart, or a heart that God writes his law upon - meaning that God gives a heart that loves God and wants to obey his commandments:

2 Cor. 3:3 Forasmuch as ye are manifestly declared to be the epistle of Christ ministered by us, written not with ink, but with the Spirit of the living God; not in tables of stone, but in fleshy tables of the heart.

The new birth is God giving those "born of flesh" the same kind of heart found in Christ:

Ps 40:8 I delight to do thy will, O my God: yea, thy law is within my heart.

This is what it means to be "created IN CHRIST Jesus UNTO good works..." - Eph. 2:10

This inward change of heart for God is what the new inward man is all about as a creative act of God called the new birth:

This is the solution for Jews living at the time of the writing of Paul of which the new birth is removing the vail from their heart:

15 But even unto this day, when Moses is read, the vail is upon their heart.
16 Nevertheless when it shall turn to the Lord, the vail shall be taken away.
17 Now the Lord is that Spirit: and where the Spirit of the Lord is, there is liberty.

The new birth is a creative act of God that changes the heart from a condition of spiritual darkness to spiritual light:

2 Cor. 4:6 For God, who commanded the light to shine out of darkness, hath shined in our hearts, to give the light of the knowledge of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Eph 5:8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

Only When God changes the heart (new birth) are those "born of the flesh" willing to hear:

Ac 16:14 And a certain woman named Lydia, a seller of purple, of the city of Thyatira, which worshipped God, heard us: whose heart the Lord opened, that she attended unto the things which were spoken of Paul.

The unregenerate state is a state of a blind heart due to being separated from the life of God whereas union with the life of God is being quickened (born again/regenerated).

Eph 4:18 Having the understanding darkened, being alienated from the life of God through the ignorance that is in them, because of the blindness of their heart:

(CONTINUED)

 

[The Biblicist]

Under the Old Covenant, there was no solution for this CONDITION OF HEART but by the very same INWARD change of heart by God called "circumcision of heart" and Israel was rebuked by God under the old covenant administration as proven by Ezekiel (Ezek. 44:7-9) and Jesus (Jn. 3:3-21):



6 And thou shalt say to the rebellious, even to the house of Israel, Thus saith the Lord GOD; O ye house of Israel, let it suffice you of all your abominations,

7 In that ye have brought into my sanctuary strangers,uncircumcised in heart, and uncircumcised in flesh, to be in my sanctuary, to pollute it, even my house, when ye offer my bread, the fat and the blood, and they have broken my covenant because of all your abominations.

8 And ye have not kept the charge of mine holy things: but ye have set keepers of my charge in my sanctuary for yourselves.

9 Thus saith the Lord GOD; No stranger,uncircumcised in heart,nor uncircumcised in flesh, shall enter into my sanctuary, of any stranger that is among the children of Israel.


Which meant that Israel was to demand a profession of faith that their hearts had been "circumcised" by God (born of the Spirit) in addition to being circumcised in the flesh (born of the flesh) to worship in God's House.


So, if any poster can find a "man" who is not born of the flesh, or who is without the adamic fallen heart condition, or who is in no need for the only solution for that condition, then you have found a man which the word "must" does apply to with regard to the new birth. This is the kind of foolishness and extremism that one must resort to in order to deny this self-obvious truth applicable from Adam to the present as the same self-obvious problem exists from Adam to the present - a heart problem - that has only one possible solution from Adam to the present.

I will not respond to such circular reasoning that Ezekiel said this under the old Covenant and therefore it could not mean what he says because they assume such a truth did not exist under the Old Covenant. It is oxymoronic to assume obedience to the Old Covenant by such a heart condition is the solution for that heart condition. The Old Covenant was NEVER designed to give life, to justify, to save anyone at anytime by its sacrifices, or ceremonial ordinances but it was ALWAYS designed to lead individuals to the knowledge of their sinful condition so they would turn from self to Christ as presented in the gospel preached to them (heb. 4:2; Acts 10:43) which when empowered by the Holy Spirit created a new heart within them both then and now (Ezek. 44:7-9; Jn. 3).

Ezekiel 36:26-27 is addressed to THE NATION of Israel and the promise of new birth AS A NATION yet in the future but the truth of Ezekiel 36:26-27 has always been applicable to INDIVIDUAL Jews and Gentiles since Genesis 3:15 who have been given a new heart that can see and hear and respond to God by repentance toward sin and faith in God's promised Christ provision which they obtained on the basis of promise rather than on the basis of fulfilment in time.

I have written this to those who have ears to hear and eyes to see the obvious. Only God can open eyes and ears of those who can't see the obvious and I will leave that work to him as to try is only to cast pearls before swine.

 

[The Biblicist]

This truth is so-self evident that one must force their minds shut, must close their eyes, and stick the fingers in their ears to miss it.

Man by nature from natural birth has no heart for God but does have a heart for sin and for rebellion against God. That is his state by nature from birth. This is taught clearly from Genesis to Revelation. To "born of the flesh" is to be born with a heart that is at enmity with God and is not subject to the law of God and neither indeed can be. This is an axiomatic truth of Scripture universally from Genesis to Revelation.

The PRACTICAL PROBLEM for those who deny it is they must explain how such natural born human beings come into possession of a heart that loves and obeys God apart from a supernatural internal work by God that produces a CHANGE OF HEART. Those living from Matthew to Revelation have the very same HEART problem and that change of heart in the New Testament scriptures is defined as the NEW BIRTH or regeneration or quickening and that is why they are called "children" of the light because they are BORN spiritually into the KINGDOM OF LIGHT by God creating light IN THE DARKENED heart.

The Old Testament calls that CHANGE OF HEART to be "circumcised in heart" while the external type of that internal change is called "circumcision of the flesh." The New Testament defines this old testament condition of "circumcised in heart" to be the new birth. No human being can circumcise "the heart" and so it is a supernatural internal change. That change produces the very same thing as new birth produces A HEART FOR GOD AND THE THINGS OF GOD.

Therefore THE PROBLEM IS THE SAME in both Old and New Testament scriptures. - HEART PROBLEM. The heart PROBLEM is defined the same in scriptures from Genesis to Revelation and that is enmity toward God (love of sin) and refusal to submit to his authority (not subject to the law of God). There can only be ONE SOLUTION - change of heart so the heart is no longer enmity with God but loves God, no longer in rebellion to God's authority but in submission. There can be no other possible solution. There can only be ONE WAY this solution occurs since it is INTERNAL and beyond the scope of man's willingness as it defines his willingness and that is this is a CHANGE WROUGHT BY GOD supernaturally.

This is such a self-evident and obvious truth that to defend it only complicates simplicity. To avoid this obvious truth by responding what about infants is hilarious! What in the world does the objector thing "born of flesh" refers to - old age???? The infant comes into this world in the womb of his mother and the Bible clearly and repeatedly teaches human beings are conceived with this HEART PROBLEM.

The objector flees to the AMBIGUOUS and the AMBIGUITY of scripture to flee from the obvious truth that the only kind of change from this condition is by a supernatural act of God of a HEART CHANGE. It makes no difference at what stage of human existence a human being exists and dies, the problem is the same and the solution is the same - new birth or change of heart or they cannot see or enter the kingdom of God. The only real issue is whether or not God saves dying infants not HOW they are saved as their is only ONE SOLUTION for all who are "born of the flesh."

To wiggle and weasel around that ONLY POSSIBLE SOLUTION (heart change) based upon human ability to discern good from evil makes no difference at all about the ONLY POSSIBLE SOLUTION as the bottom line is IF such are saved by God they are saved by the very SAME WAY - HEART CHANGE by God's power.

 

[The Biblicist]

Abraham was "born of the flesh" and therefore came into this world by that natural birth with a natural heart opposed to God and spiritual things. What changed Abraham from an idol worshipping God hater to a idol hater God worshipper? What changed Abraham's unbelieving heart to a believing heart? How did characteristics that Paul restricts to the "fruit of the Spirit" occur WITHIN Abraham and then made manifest by his outward life?

There are only three possible logical options:

1. Abraham changed his own heart

2. Abraham participated with God changing his own heart

3. God gave Abraham a heart not received by being "born of the flesh" thus a new birthed heart.


Since Paul had the very same problem as Abraham there are only three possible options for him too:

1. Paul changed his own heart

2. Paul participated with God changing his own heart

3. God gave Paul a heart not received by being "born of the flesh" but by new birth.


If such a new heart was possible by the first two options for Abraham, so also it is possible for Paul because it is the SAME PROBLEM.

Those who deny CHANGE OF HEART is not the new birth deny the obvious. What kind of heart came with the FIRST BIRTH or "born of the flesh"????? If the first heart characterizes BEING BORN of the flesh, then a NEW heart would characterize a NEW BIRTH or a birth NOT OF THE FLESH but "OF GOD" as it is God from whence the new heart comes and it is God who CHANGES the heart.

If one says this CHANGE OF HEART is not the new birth, then why would Abraham or Paul need the new birth since THEIR SAME PROBLEM can achieve a solution WITHOUT new birth?

Mankind prior to the Old Covenant living between Genesis and Exodus certainly could not obtain such a change "under the Old Covenant." Mankind living under the "old Covenant" could not achieve such a change by the Old Covenant as God plainly says they did not in Deuteronomy 5:29 and 29:4. So being under or not under the Old Covenant makes no difference with achieving this change of heart. Neither does it make any difference merely living under the New Covenant administration. Before, during or after covenant administrations the problem remains the same and the solution remains the same - it is OF GOD not OF FLESH. The covenant administrations don't save anyone, it is God that saves the very same way before, during or after any covenant administration in human history. He saves according to the "blood of the EVERLASTING covenant" (Heb. 13:20) by the "lamb slain from the foundation of the world" according to promise rather than according to time of existence or time of the cross as God applies it by how HE SEES THE CROSS as an eternal present that spans from eternity past to eternity future.

Personal and individual salvation was and is always directly by God under the unconditional terms of the everlasting covenant. The Old Covenant saved no one but merely declared individual and personal salvation in gospel types in anticipation of Christ's first coming. The New covenant saves no one but merely declares individual and personal salvation in the clarity of the gospel in anticipation of Christ's second coming and the perfection of all saints in salvation.

The change of heart secured in David was based upon the unconditional terms of the "everlasting covenant" rather than "under the Old Covenant".

Although my house be not so with God; yet he hath made with me an everlasting covenant, ordered in all things, and sure: for this is all my salvation, and all my desire, although he make it not to grow. - 2 Sam. 23:5

He is not speaking of the Old Covenant as that was made with Israel as a nation. He is speaking about "the blood of the everlasting covenant."

The change of heart secured for individual Jews under the Old Covenant was not by the Old Covenant made with the NATION of Israel but by the "blood of the everlasting covenant" which was UNCONDITIONAL:

Isa. 55:1 ¶ Ho, every one that thirsteth, come ye to the waters, and he that hath no money; come ye, buy, and eat; yea, come, buy wine and milk without money and without price.
2 Wherefore do ye spend money for that which is not bread? and your labour for that which satisfieth not? hearken diligently unto me, and eat ye that which is good, and let your soul delight itself in fatness.
3 Incline your ear, and come unto me: hear, and your soul shall live; and I will make an everlasting covenant with you, even the sure mercies of David.

Isaiah had just preached the gospel two chapters earlier (Isa. 53) and Paul says it was the gospel (Rom. 10:15). This same "everlasting covenant" is the same unconditional covenant for all the saved from Genesis to Revelation as it is the same covenant made with Abraham and to "ALL" of His seed, or ALL WHO ARE OF FAITH or ALL THE CHILDREN OF PROMISE including those born "under the law" equally as those not born under the law.

The Old Covenant was a NATIONAL covenant never designed to save, justify, regenerate ANY INDIVIDUAL. Individual salvation was always under the unconditional "everlasting covenant" directly applied by God and never applied by any covenant administration on earth, whether it is the "old" covenant public administration or the new covenant public administration as both have ordinances, ministers and public houses of worship (Heb. 9:1). The New Covenant administration is the clearest manifestation and declaration of the "blood of the everlasting covenant" by its ministry, ordinances and public worship and mission. The baptism in the Spirit was administered to the tabernacle, to the temple and to the church, all as public houses of worship. The tabernacle and temple were types of the church. The Tabernacle was clothed in skins of animals. The temple in stone. The church consists of both, a congregation of water baptized believers in their own skins assembled together as metaphorical living stones, to offer up public worship through acceptable sacrifices.

The great "Mystery" of the gospel is that the Spirit is now being poured out upon "all flesh" both jew and Gentile and Gentiles are now EQUAL members in the new public house of God as part of the New Covenant public administration.

 

[Darrell C]

They which are called, from above.

The context, Percho, that Hebrews 9:15 was given was in regards to Eternal Remission as contrasted with the temporal and temporary remission of sins received of men through the provision of the Old Testament Economies. That was...animal sacrifice.

The remission of sins provided through that provision is not to be compared to Eternal Remission which the Writer of Hebrews makes clear...is the remission of sins promised by God when He said He would make a New Covenant.

Titus 3:6,7 Which (Holt Spirit from verse 5) he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life.
Eph 1:13,14 YLT in whom ye also, having heard the word of the truth -- the good news of your salvation -- in whom also having believed, ye were sealed with the Holy Spirit of the promise, which is an earnest of our inheritance, to the redemption of the acquired possession, to the praise of His glory.

heard the word of the truth -- the good news of your salvation ----Is that the faith that is heard by which one receives the Holy Spirit? See Gal 3:2,14

Receiving the Spirit is always combined with hearing the Gospel and in faith receiving that Word. While we would not divorce the fact that faith is generated from hearing that Word, we must also keep in mind that we are saved by grace through faith, not saved by faith through grace. The Comforter, Who is the Promised Spirit, is performing a ministry of conviction among the lost:



John 16:7-9

King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;


He utilizes the revelation of the Gospel Mystery which allows the natural man to understand the Gospel, which is effected in regards to sin, righteousness, and judgment. Men understand their condition, and the Remedy, which is Christ Who the Spirit glorifies.

We are not born again apart from the Gospel of Jesus Christ:


1 Peter 1:18-23

King James Version (KJV)


18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;

19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:

20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

21 Who by him do believe in God, that raised him up from the dead, and gave him glory; that your faith and hope might be in God.

22 Seeing ye have purified your souls in obeying the truth through the Spirit unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently:

23 Being born again, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by the word of God, which liveth and abideth for ever.


James also speaks of the New Birth and the Word of God:


James 1:18

King James Version (KJV)

18 Of his own will begat he us with the word of truth, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures.


Continued...

 

[The Biblicist]

"This is eternal life that they might KNOW the only true God and jesus Christ....." - Jn. 17:3

Being quickened (born again, regenerated, circumcised in heart) is giving THE LIGHT OF KNOWLEDGE IN THE HEART (2 Cor. 4:6) regardless of the age of a human being.

If infants dying in the womb are saved at the point of death, they are saved the very same way - quickened or being GIVEN KNOWLEDGE of the one true God in the face of Jesus Christ.

Quickening is being given knowledge -experiential knowledge by being made conscious of God and His provision in Christ. That knowledge IS the "substance" and "hope" of justifying faith.

Hence, the command of God that makes His gospel the "power of salvation" is the effectual call which puts the LIGHT OF KNOWLEGE of the glory of God in the face of Jesus Christ IN the heart - 2 Cor. 4:6.

This act of created metaphorical "light of knowledge" in the heart is the creation of justifying faith as the gospel which is empowered to create this "light of knowledge" is also the "substance" and "hope" of faith, thus regeneration is the act of God that creates faith in connection with the empowered gospel (effectual call) - 1 Thes. 1:4-6.

Thus we are saved (perfect tense) by grace THROUGH faith, and that not of ourselves, for it is a gift of God. NOT OF WORKS...for we are HIS WORKMANSHIP created in Christ Jesus UNTO good works."

At the perfect tense completed action of quickening ("saved" refers to being quickened in the context see v. 5) faith is created whereby the quickened embrace Christ as REVEALED by this LIGHT OF KNOWLEDGE directly imparted into the darkened heart. Hence, this knowledge is the "substance" of faith and is the "hope" of faith. Thus we are "HIS WORKmanship" and quickening is being "created in Christ" that is in union with Christ "through" faith which is regeneratively produced.

 

[Darrell C]

Does a 40 year old man sitting in church one day or sitting on the fishing bank one day reading the word of God suddenly believe something and for that belief God gives him the Holy Spirit OR Does God call a man, give him, shed on him, the Holy Spirit translating him from the ignorance and unbelief he was born in, unto belief because Jesus died for his sins and because God the Father raised Jesus from the dead? The Faith and the Grace. Did Jesus the Son of God, have to learn and become obedient unto death and be raised from the dead, glorified, before the Holy Spirit of God could be available to be given any man who ever has or will live?

All who are saved are called of God. But not all who are called are saved.

Its not "the faith and the grace," its...Grace.

And yes, Christ had to die in man's stead prior to the Spirit being sent:


John 7:38-39

King James Version (KJV)


38 He that believeth on me, as the scripture hath said, out of his belly shall flow rivers of living water.

39 (But this spake he of the Spirit, which they that believe on him should receive: for the Holy Ghost was not yet given; because that Jesus was not yet glorified.)


Note Christ's mention of the Promise of the Father (from the Old Testament) which they had heard of Him (New Testament, i.e., John 14-16):


Acts 1:4-5

King James Version (KJV)


4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.


Many take this as simply meaning the disciples were to be empowered, but the Record shows clearly...this had already taken place. The disciples preached the Kingdom Gospel, healed, cast out demons, all through the empowering of the Holy Spirit which remains a consistent ministry through all Ages. What is not consistent is the realization of the Promise of God in regards to the Spirit being sent, and this promise speaks of eternal indwelling, which is quite simply...

...immersion into God.

That is why it is written that God was in Christ reconciling the world unto Himself.

If you look at the post you responded to, you will see passages dealing with the fact that the disciple did not yet know the Scriptures that Christ would rise from the dead. The reason? Because the Spirit Who would bring all that Christ taught them into remembrance had not yet been sent.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Can God do that exact same thing for a new born baby? Does that baby have to understand anything in order for God to give him the Holy Spirit?

There is no question that God can give life to the infant that is separated from Him. We know this because He did this very thing in regards to every Old Testament Saint...

...when Christ died on the Cross.

It was through that death, as Hebrews 9:12-15 states, that their sins were forgiven and Eternal Redemption obtained. We do not divorce man's need for remission of sins from man's relationship with God. Adam sinned, and he lost that union with God he shared. Christ and His offering made atonement for the sins of men, and this retroactively.

We see that here as well...


Romans 3:20-26

King James Version (KJV)


20 Therefore by the deeds of the law there shall no flesh be justified in his sight: for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

21 But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets;

22 Even the righteousness of God which is by faith of Jesus Christ unto all and upon all them that believe: for there is no difference:

23 For all have sinned, and come short of the glory of God;

24 Being justified freely by his grace through the redemption that is in Christ Jesus:

25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.


So the infant in the womb will, because God is just to judge men based on their response to the revelation provided them...receive of the same grace that the Old Testament Saint received.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

What will the Spirit do for one at the coming of Christ?

He will finish the work He has begun in us. He will redeem our flesh.

But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. Romans 8:11
Verse 23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Behold, I shew you a mystery; We shall not all sleep, but we shall all be changed, 1 Cor 15:51
2 Cor 5:4,5 For we that are in this tabernacle do groan, being burdened: not for that we would be unclothed, but clothed upon, that mortality might be swallowed up of life. Now he that hath wrought us for the selfsame thing is God, who also hath given unto us the earnest of the Spirit.

The indwelling we receive at salvation is the down-payment, the guarantee of our resurrection which is physical. It is God's pledge and promise to us.

Once again. What had to take place in order for the Holt Spirit to be available to do the above?

The order is thus: God manifest in the flesh, taking on the form of man, dying in our stead, being raised again, returning to Heaven from whence He came, and sending the Spirit He promised to send in accordance to His Promises.

Basically what we see is God's progressive revelation of Redemption throughout Biblical History, which had as a goal the New Covenant. In the New Covenant we see Redemption made complete. This is why the Writer of Hebrews marks the First Covenant, the Covenant of Law, as incomplete and unable to remit sins completely. But as God promised to remember sins no more through the New Covenant He would establish, even so we see how He does that: through the Offering of Christ.


Continued...

 

[The Biblicist]

God cannot save anyone without giving them knowledge of God and Christ as eternal life IS KNOWLEGE OF GOD and Christ - Jn. 17:3. Regeneration is effectual REVELATION of "THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE GLORY OF GOD IN THE FACE OF JESUS CHRIST" as creative command of God that places this metaphorical light "IN THE HEART."

So, no, an infant cannot be regenerated apart from knowledge of God and jesus Christ as there is no "eternal life" without that knowledge.

There are no ignoramus human beings in heaven. They all know God through Christ by direct immediate revelation called new birth, effectual calling, regeneration, circumcision of the heart, changed heart, born again, quickened, etc.

 

[Darrell C]

For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit: 1 Peter 3:18
And being made perfect, he became the author of eternal salvation unto all them that obey him; Heb 5:9
For it became him, for whom are all things, and by whom are all things, in bringing many sons unto glory, to make the captain of their salvation perfect through sufferings. Heb 2:10

Make sure you do not impose a connotation into "perfect" in regards to our Lord that has the modern connotations we see in that word. The perfection in view speaks of completion, a bringing to an end that which had to take place.

The Son of God was not perfected in the sense that He obeyed the Law perfectly thus "proved Himself," for in that sense we already know He was perfect as our Father in Heaven is perfect, for He was God manifest in flesh.

The perfection speaks of the fact that through that process of the incarnation, and dying on the Cross, there is a bringing to an end of that which had to take place that He might be the Captain of our salvation. Until He actually died that completion had not taken place. This is why, on the Cross, He said...it is finished.

Note it "became Him," in bringing many sons unto glory. It was befitting for the God that is not willing that any should perish to provide the means of salvation for men.

Note that being made perfect, which is not that He underwent some kind of improvement (for He is God), He became the Author of eternal salvation. THis should not surprise us...this is precisely what He tells us in many places, John 6 not being the least of those teachings.

Hebrews 11:39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

Even today we are receiving a good report through faith.

I think that is true, but, the context in Hebrews 11 is no different than it is in the rest of the Book: the "good report should not be confused with receiving the promise/s or being made...complete.

Perfection, or, Completion is a major theme of the Book of Hebrews. Understand that and you will never again question whether or not salvation can be lost again.

This is the clearest statement of Eternal Security in the Bible:


Hebrews 10:14

King James Version (KJV)

14 For by one offering he hath perfected for ever them that are sanctified.


If you set a goal of reading Hebrews through ten times, Percho, I am pretty confident that before you are through God is going to open your heart to truths you have not before considered. Give it a try, my friend.

Through Jesus dead and raised from the dead. YLT Eph 2:10 for of Him we are workmanship, created in Christ Jesus to good works, which God did before prepare, that in them we may walk.

And lets not put the good works we are created in Christ Jesus unto...before the creation of the New Creature. Just as we do not put faith before the intervention of God and the enlightening of our minds to spiritual truth.

You ask...

Does a 40 year old man sitting in church one day or sitting on the fishing bank one day reading the word of God suddenly believe something

The answer is no.


John 1:11-13

King James Version (KJV)


11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


Men have no ability to process something they are completely unaware of. Not of the will of the flesh (personal effort on one's part), and not of the will of man (effort on the part of someone else, i.e., men do not save other men, though God may use them in this process through preaching and teaching, for example).

Until God opens man's awareness to his condition, he has no more knowledge of his condition than a dead man in the ER room. And like the dead man in the ER room, that dead man does not participate in his being brought back to life. Another example might be the man drowning in a lake. He isn't pulled out and then able to say "I saved myself from drowning," nor did he contribute to that which saved him. Drowning men is a good example of man's rebellious nature, because oftentimes drowning people struggle against the efforts of those trying to save them, and sometimes try to take those trying to save down with them.

Salvation is wholly the work of Holy God, He is Sovereign.

God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect. Hebrews 11:40

They were not made complete until Christ died in their stead. At this time they obtained eternal redemption, and their sins, the transgression that were past, were forgiven.


God bless.

 

[Darrell C]

God cannot save anyone without giving them knowledge of God and Christ as eternal life IS KNOWLEGE OF GOD and Christ - Jn. 17:3. Regeneration is effectual REVELATION of "THE KNOWLEDGE OF THE GLORY OF GOD IN THE FACE OF JESUS CHRIST" as creative command of God that places this metaphorical light "IN THE HEART."

So, no, an infant cannot be regenerated apart from knowledge of God and jesus Christ as there is no "eternal life" without that knowledge.

There are no ignoramus human beings in heaven. They all know God through Christ by direct immediate revelation called new birth, effectual calling, regeneration, circumcision of the heart, changed heart, born again, quickened, etc.

So when does this happen for the infant that dies in the womb?

All men are separated from God at conception, that is just a Bible Basic. Men are not conceived in relationship with God, but out of relationship with God, and under condemnation. And we know without controversy that no man will see the Kingdom of God except he be born again, so, the question still reminas...

...when does this take place for the infant.

Keep in mind I have several threads of your teachings to draw from, so answer this question carefully.

Its a simple question. When is the infant that dies regenerated? Before or after physical death?


God bless.

 

[The Biblicist]

If infants dying between Genesis 5 and Acts 2 were not regenerated then they went to hell as they died in a state of spiritual separation from God and with a depraved nature or heart confirmed in sin.

If infants dying between Genesis 5 and Acts 2 were given another heart (regeneration) at death so were all believer regenerated at the point of faith as the regeneration of infants before Acts 2 demonstrates the regeneration of all saints prior to Acts 2.

In context, the word "perfect" in Hebrews 11:39-40 refers to the glorified state of the body in a new heaven and earth. This is the "promise" that fulfilled all the promises that these saints looked for but could not find on this earth (Heb. 11:10-17). To say they were unregenerate spirits dwelling in hades is absoltue foolishness as unregenerate spirits are at enmity with God as that is the very condition of being an unregenerate as even today regeneration is of the spirit not the body.

 

[The Biblicist]

The Bible does not say at what point infants in the womb or out of the womb are regenerated. However, they must be regenerated or they remain in SPIRITUAL ENMITY with God. The foolish idea that dying infants between Genesis and Acts 2 were not regenerated spirits but abode in hades until the cross to be regenerated is just as foolish as claiming that anyone between Genesis and Acts 2 existed as UNREGENERATE spirits in hades as the unregenerate condition is a STATE OF SPIRITUAL ENMITY against God. Jesus did not present either Abraham or Lazerus in paradise in a SPIRITUAL STATE OF ENMITY.

God does not have to regenerate dying infant "before" or "after" death but can "AT" death. But the Bible does not say, and so to speculate is foolish and to deny they were regenerated either "before" or "at" or "after" death is even more foolish if they are regarded as "saved" because no UNREGNERATE SPIRIT is in a saved condition as that very condition is a STATE OF ENMITY against God. So to suggest there are "saved" SPIRITS who still exist in an UNREGENERATE state after death is pure foolishness as it is oxymoronic to be "saved" as a spirit and yet at enmity against God as a spirit one and the same time.

 

[Darrell C]

If infants dying between Genesis 5 and Acts 2 were not regenerated then they went to hell as they died in a state of spiritual separation from God and with a depraved nature or heart confirmed in sin.

Why would we think that?

We have an entire Old Testament filled with saints that died and were still under the condemnation they were born under.

It's very clear:


Hebrews 9:12 & 15

King James Version (KJV)


12 Neither by the blood of goats and calves, but by his own blood he entered in once into the holy place, having obtained eternal redemption for us.


15 And for this cause he is the mediator of the new testament, that by means of death, for the redemption of the transgressions that were under the first testament, they which are called might receive the promise of eternal inheritance.


Same thing stated here:


Romans 3:25-26

King James Version (KJV)


25 Whom God hath set forth to be a propitiation through faith in his blood, to declare his righteousness for the remission of sins that are past, through the forbearance of God;

26 To declare, I say, at this time his righteousness: that he might be just, and the justifier of him which believeth in Jesus.


Now on what basis what Abraham justified again?

If infants dying between Genesis 5 and Acts 2 were given another heart (regeneration) at death so were all believer regenerated at the point of faith as the regeneration of infants before Acts 2 demonstrates the regeneration of all saints prior to Acts 2.

Okay, so now you are giving at least the possibility (at least) that this took place at death. Again, it makes no matter if we say "at" death or after death, in view is specifically whether or not they were physically alive or not.

Now, if they were regenerated at death, or after death, we still have the same principle...they were not born again while physically living.

And there is absolutely nothing at all to show that Old Testament Saints were born again believers. Nothing.

And there is much to show that they were not:

1. They were not eternally forgiven;

2. They did not understand the Mystery of the Gospel (and it has been shown in numerous places why we know that they didn't in both explicit and implicit teaching);

3. They did not have the Eternal Indwelling of God;

4. They were not professing Jesus Christ (Who did not appear until the Incarnation... and to be clear, I am not saying the Son of God began at this time, He is Eternal, but the Man Jesus Christ has a beginning in time) as their Savior, they only had the foundational principles of the Doctrine of Christ.


So what you are saying is God regenerates men apart from the indwelling of God, remission of sins, and men do not even have to trust in Christ as their Savior.

That is a remarkable thing, Biblicist.

One verse:


John 20:9

King James Version (KJV)

9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.


Continued...

 

[Martin Marprelate]

We have an entire Old Testament filled with saints that died and were still under the condemnation they were born under.

Hmmm. I am still very tied up with the sermons I have to write, so I'm going to reduce my comments to syllogisms. I am assuming that everyone accepts that the Kingdom of God is the same as the Kingdom of Heaven.

1. Unless one is born again, one will neither see nor enter the kingdom of God (John 3:3-5).
2. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are in the kingdom of God (Matthew 8:11).
THEREFORE
3. Abraham, Isaac and Jacob are born again.

1. Those who receive the New Birth have a living hope through the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead (1 Peter 1:3).
2. Job (Job 19:25-27) and David (Psalm 16:9-10) had such a living hope.
THEREFORE
3. Job and David received New Birth.