The Bible and I disagree with you.
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The Pre-Tribulation Rapture
- Thread starter Darrell C
- Start date
The Bible and I disagree with you.
beameup
Member
The Bible and I disagree with you. Paul definitely disagrees with you:
"For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fullness of the Gentiles be come in.
And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Zion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob: For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins." Romans 11:25-27
Paul disagrees with you. What do you think you're proving with that verse? If you understood, why have you not already explained?
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Of course you don.t. The reason is you will not give consideration to what you are being told.
You haven't even really offered exactly what position you hold to.
You don't care what the truth is, you simply want to deny the Pre-Tribulation Rapture.
Once I get done with these posts, in which you offer absolutely nothing that contributes to a discussion or debate about the positions one might take, I will give you more reasons why you should give this more thought.
Now, I will try once more to explain to you the relevance of the posts: you erroneously concluded that I was speaking about the Great White Throne Judgment, amazingly, seeing I specifically mention the Sheep and Goat Judgment.
The difference between the two are numerous, much less the fact that there is no period of time after the thousand years are over.
If you cannot correlate Christ's teaching to Daniel (and the instruction that the reader understand), perhaps, if you actually read the posts...you might.
But as long as your only goal is to show hatred for a position and the believers that take that position...there is no hope of you ever understanding the Eschatology of your antagonist. And if you don't understand it...you will never be able to dismantle it.
Ranting in a thread and saying "The Bible disagrees with you," is not, I'm sorry to inform you...a very effective approach to discussion and debate. And when you only reiterate "That's not true" and offer no teaching of your own, it becomes even worse.
Continued...
If you actually looked at the passages given you and learn what is meant by giving them you will see that the only thing that is going to happen here is you are only going to get more upset.
The Pre-Tribulational Rapture is the most reasonable view, and it does not have to be reconciled with bringing other passages and teachings into conflict.
The Post-Tribulational view demands that unbelievers enter the Kingdom established by Christ when He returns, which is the fulfillment of the Promise of God to Israel...the nation.
If you want to discuss it, great, but if you are not going to discuss it...just be honest about that.
Prophecy has multiple fulfillments at times.
For example...Christ coming.
There are two fulfillments that will take place, one having happened, and in that multiple prophecies were fulfilled, but, when He returns we will see more prophecy fulfilled.
There is no reason why we cannot make application of this passage to Christians in the First Century and following, but, that does not mean we do not see future fulfillment being foretold.
You either understand that, or you don't. And if you don't then you will have hard time getting your eschatology straight.
He is talking to Jews and about Jews.
The disciples were not Jews?
Those who the Temple Services are relevant to are not Jews?
Daniels People were not Jews?
Now lets see some Jews in the Tribulation:
Revelation 7
King James Version (KJV)
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
Here's some more:
Daniel 9:24-27
King James Version (KJV)
24 Seventy weeks are determined upon thy people and upon thy holy city, to finish the transgression, and to make an end of sins, and to make reconciliation for iniquity, and to bring in everlasting righteousness, and to seal up the vision and prophecy, and to anoint the most Holy.
25 Know therefore and understand, that from the going forth of the commandment to restore and to build Jerusalem unto the Messiah the Prince shall be seven weeks, and threescore and two weeks: the street shall be built again, and the wall, even in troublous times.
26 And after threescore and two weeks shall Messiah be cut off, but not for himself: and the people of the prince that shall come shall destroy the city and the sanctuary; and the end thereof shall be with a flood, and unto the end of the war desolations are determined.
27 And he shall confirm the covenant with many for one week: and in the midst of the week he shall cause the sacrifice and the oblation to cease, and for the overspreading of abominations he shall make it desolate, even until the consummation, and that determined shall be poured upon the desolate.
The Tribulation is the Seventieth Week, Smyth, and it is relevant to the Jews.
Not the Church.
Continued...
I would agree, He is speaking about the fact that they are going to be persecuted.
Let's see what happens:
Revelation 12
King James Version (KJV)
1 And there appeared a great wonder in heaven; a woman clothed with the sun, and the moon under her feet, and upon her head a crown of twelve stars:
2 And she being with child cried, travailing in birth, and pained to be delivered.
3 And there appeared another wonder in heaven; and behold a great red dragon, having seven heads and ten horns, and seven crowns upon his heads.
4 And his tail drew the third part of the stars of heaven, and did cast them to the earth: and the dragon stood before the woman which was ready to be delivered, for to devour her child as soon as it was born.
5 And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.
6 And the woman fled into the wilderness, where she hath a place prepared of God, that they should feed her there a thousand two hundred and threescore days.
These are Jews, my friend.
This speaks of Israel from whence Christ came. He is caught up to God and to His Throne.
The woman flees into the wilderness to a place prepared of God. This is at the mid-point of the Tribulation, and they will be there for the duration.
But keep reading:
12 Therefore rejoice, ye heavens, and ye that dwell in them. Woe to the inhabiters of the earth and of the sea! for the devil is come down unto you, having great wrath, because he knoweth that he hath but a short time.
13 And when the dragon saw that he was cast unto the earth, he persecuted the woman which brought forth the man child.
14 And to the woman were given two wings of a great eagle, that she might fly into the wilderness, into her place, where she is nourished for a time, and times, and half a time, from the face of the serpent.
It is reiterated...she is kept safe for 3 1/2 years.
Now...why do they flee?
Matthew 24:15-16
King James Version (KJV)
15 When ye therefore shall see the abomination of desolation, spoken of by Daniel the prophet, stand in the holy place, (whoso readeth, let him understand
16 Then let them which be in Judaea flee into the mountains:
Because Christ has instructed her in advance.
And when we look at the Prophecy of Daniel and understand that there is a physical period of time after the time, times, and half a time, which is 1260 days in the Jewish calendar, then we understand it is not the Great White Throne that is in view in the teachings concerning the end of the Tribulation. And we see that the 75 days Daniel tells of us is important.
Continued...
I agree He is speaking about Christians in this period, but, there is nothing that we see anywhere in Scripture that indicates that the Church will be those Christians.
And much reason to see that they won't be, seeing that a Post Tribulation Rapture creates numerous problems.
And you either have to deny there is a Millennial Kingdom altogether (which is the absolute worst position a Student of Scripture can take), or, you have to make unbleievers entering into that Kingdom (which is actually the position of Progressive Dispensationalists, among whom are those that teach that the Tribulation will be secluded to the Middle east, and will not be a global event...another poor position to adopt).
So my brethren are false.
Well, seeing that you simply have a one verse Eschatology, I think perhaps my Brethren are a more suitable choice for discussion than you.
Again, people don't save people, Smyth. Salvation is wholly the work of Holy God.
It is the Holy Spirit of God that brings about salvation by the imparting of spiritual truth directly to the heart of the believer.
There is absolutely no need for the first believer to be in the Tribulation when it begins for God to save men in that period.
Continued...
I have never heard anyone teach what you are talking about.
It's the same tired out false arguments I see by most Post-Tribulation believers.
You need to know what someone believes before you start debating arguments they don't even endorse.
Why would I do that?
As I said...its the most reasonable position one can embrace. There are no inconsistencies we have to deal with.
And for the record, when someone is teaching error about the Pre-Trib Rapture...I do disagree with them.
Its not invented...its basic Bible, Smyth.
First:
Revelation 7
King James Version (KJV)
3 Saying, Hurt not the earth, neither the sea, nor the trees, till we have sealed the servants of our God in their foreheads.
4 And I heard the number of them which were sealed: and there were sealed an hundred and forty and four thousand of all the tribes of the children of Israel.
Is God sealing the Tribes of Israel in this Age? No. In the Church there is neither Jew nor Gentile, yet here...these are sealed by God in the Tribulation.
Second:
Revelation 7:13-14
King James Version (KJV)
13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.
These are Gentiles clearly coming out of the Tribulations. That they have washed their robes and made them white in the Blood of the Lamb speaks of salvation.
Third:
Revelation 14:9-10
King James Version (KJV)
9 And the third angel followed them, saying with a loud voice, If any man worship the beast and his image, and receive his mark in his forehead, or in his hand,
10 The same shall drink of the wine of the wrath of God, which is poured out without mixture into the cup of his indignation; and he shall be tormented with fire and brimstone in the presence of the holy angels, and in the presence of the Lamb:
Here we see the warning against taking the Mark of the Beast, and worshiping him and his image.
Do you think that warning is given to the Saints? Do you believe God would preserve His saints then cast them into Hell because they decided to take the Mark of the Beast?
Some do, I understand, because they think salvation can be lost. But that is as false a doctrine as we can find.
One more example:
Revelation 20
King James Version (KJV)
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
In view here are only Tribulation Martyrs. We know this because there is no mention of the living saints being raised at this time, and they are described in terms which only apply to those who are in the Tribulation.
This is not speaking of the Church going into the Tribulation and then possibly deciding to worship the Beast and his image, or receiving his mark.
That option is only for those who are in the Tribulation, for salvation is, as Scripture describes it and teaches it...
...Eternal.
Continued...
No condition prohibits God from saving men.
That is to be distinguished from those who have hardened their hearts and seared their conscience. Upon men that have rejected the Gospel of Christ God will send strong delusion...so they will believe the lie. But that does not negate the fact that God will seal 144,000 Jews...during the Tribulation. Nor that there will be people who reject Antichrist and refuse to worship him, and instead wash their robes in the Lamb of God.
And I have said several times now...there will be.
But it won't be the Church.
Show me where you see the Church in the detailed account of events in Revelation.
Just one passage will suffice.
They are saved by God.
Men have never saved other men, because men are not born of God by the will of man, nor by will of the flesh.
They are born of God through the Gospel enlightened to the natural mind and heart. That is just basic.
Sure there will be.
The Rapture as taught by Paul includes every member of the Body, both living and dead. And as my first point stated, which you have avoided, if all believers are raptured at the end of the Tribulation...
...that leaves no physical inhabitants in the Kingdom God will establish.
And unless you want to deny that all unbelievers will be destroyed by the time the Tribulation and the 75 day period which follows, then you have to cede that point. Now if you want to argue there will be unbelievers in the Kingdom, then lets discuss it. That would actually be relevant.
This is far truer than words can express.
God bless.
You post incoherent nonsense and you spam verses that don't support you. You're unable to respond to the points made against your position, rather you just repeat nonsense. You say nothing to indicate Christians will be left on Earth during the tribulation? On the country, nothing to indicate they won't be. You don't believe the Bible. You demonstrate why cults can exist; for many people, the Bible is not remedy for even the most clearly unbiblical of teachings.
FROM MARK 13: (You, not They)
But be on your guard. For they will deliver you over to councils, and you will be beaten in synagogues, and you will stand before governors and kings for my sake, to bear witness before them. And the gospel must first be proclaimed to all nations. And when they bring you to trial and deliver you over, do not be anxious beforehand what you are to say, but say whatever is given you in that hour, for it is not you who speak, but the Holy Spirit. And brother will deliver brother over to death, and the father his child, and children will rise against parents and have them put to death. And you will be hated by all for my name's sake. But the one who endures to the end will be saved.
“But when you see the abomination of desolation standing where he ought not to be (let the reader understand), then let those who are in Judea flee to the mountains. Let the one who is on the housetop not go down, nor enter his house, to take anything out, and let the one who is in the field not turn back to take his cloak. And alas for women who are pregnant and for those who are nursing infants in those days! Pray that it may not happen in winter. For in those days there will be such tribulation as has not been from the beginning of the creation that God created until now, and never will be. And if the Lord had not cut short the days, no human being would be saved. But for the sake of the elect, whom he chose, he shortened the days. And then if anyone says to you, ‘Look, here is the Christ!’ or ‘Look, there he is!’ do not believe it. For false christs and false prophets will arise and perform signs and wonders, to lead astray, if possible, the elect. But be on guard; I have told you all things beforehand.
“But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun will be darkened, and the moon will not give its light, and the stars will be falling from heaven, and the powers in the heavens will be shaken. And then they will see the Son of Man coming in clouds with great power and glory. And then he will send out the angels and gather his elect from the four winds, from the ends of the earth to the ends of heaven.
So the Scripture you do not address is nonsense?
And you might try looking up spam. Even in a forum setting there is no way to consider posts that are created specific to an antagonist's post as spam.
And I am sorry if you cannot understand the significance of what has been said.
So far you have offered one point: The Church will be in the Tribulation. You base this on one passage, and have not addressed the Scripture posted to show that there will be people coming to faith in the Tribulation, which negates a position that the Church must go through the Tribulation.
I've responded in concise fashion...to everything you have said.
You, on the other hand, have not addressed my posts, but simply responded in typical fashion of those whose doctrine is weak and built upon one passage and concept.
I have had to repeat certain things because you still express that you do not understand why they are relevant.
I have given specific Scripture reference to the reasons why the Church will not be left, and how that God will be sealing men who come to faith during the Tribulation period.
The Tribulation has a large focus on judgment of unbelievers, but...it also is the time at which God will be fulfilling His promise to Israel.
Consider:
Romans 11:25-27
King James Version (KJV)
25 For I would not, brethren, that ye should be ignorant of this mystery, lest ye should be wise in your own conceits; that blindness in part is happened to Israel, until the fulness of the Gentiles be come in.
26 And so all Israel shall be saved: as it is written, There shall come out of Sion the Deliverer, and shall turn away ungodliness from Jacob:
27 For this is my covenant unto them, when I shall take away their sins.
This is a future event in the life of the Nation of Israel. And it speaks of Christ's Return.
Now, does this mean that Paul isn't aware that the Redeemer of Israel has not already come? Kind of hard to conclude that seeing that Paul's ministry was one of preaching Christ crucified. It is specific to the Tribulation, and it is at this time God seals the 144,000, and Israel is returned to relationship with God through the New Covenant...
...as He promised would happen.
Continued...
Well, except for the multiple points already raised to you.
So where do those who rebel against God at the end of the Millennial Kingdom come from, Smyth?
Your only options are that they are glorified saints or they are saints that become apostate.
Can you address that point, Smyth?
Continued...
In point of fact I do. That you do not understand my beliefs in regards to Eschatology doesn't change the fact that my doctrine isn't built on one concept of defense, and does not have the contradictions that a Post Trib view raises.
And if you think you can insult your way through to a strong doctrinal position, I would remind you this is contrary to some simple principles of Christianity itself.
Great, now show me why.
All you have to do is address the points raised.
This is true. A good example is you being shown from Scripture that there must be unbelievers at the end of the Millennial Kingdom, which means that there must be physical believers at the beginning, and that if the Church, which is all believers on the earth at this time, is raptured at the end of the Tribulation...
...this leaves no physical believers to procreate, from whence the unbelievers at the end of the Millennial Kingdom come from.
Address that point.
And I will address your belief that the Church must go through the Tribulation as well as the false notion that men will not be saved during this period. I have already given you four references from Revelation itself to support the fact God is saving men without the Church being there, which also speaks to the Churchianity gospel that implies men save men.
The fact that you are incredulous that men could be saved in the Tribulation without the Church being here speaks volumes of your understanding of Salvation itself. Where was the Church when God called Abraham? Where was the Church when Job offered up sacrifice for his children?
So you can address that issue as well.
And I will just warn you, the longer you try to debate with emotion the worse it is going to get for you, and the more your understanding of Theology is going to be exposed as weak. Fair warning, my friend. You can either dial it down and try to have a discussion or you are going to make things worse for yourself.
Now address the points, Scripture, and the Doctrine of the Topic.
Continued...
Here are some more "you" prophecies which show a future fulfillment and application beyond those He is teaching in that day:
Mark 13:19-22
King James Version (KJV)
19 For in those days shall be affliction, such as was not from the beginning of the creation which God created unto this time, neither shall be.
20 And except that the Lord had shortened those days, no flesh should be saved: but for the elect's sake, whom he hath chosen, he hath shortened the days.
I'll make this easy: do you deny that there will be a Tribulation in the future as Revelation teaches?
Is this speaking about what the disciples will go through?
Is the tribulation the disciples went through, or Israel...the worse affliction that has ever taken place? And we cannot apply this teaching to the teaching of Revelation?
Two questions here, Smyth, please answer them.
21 And then if any man shall say to you, Lo, here is Christ; or, lo, he is there; believe him not:
22 For false Christs and false prophets shall rise, and shall shew signs and wonders, to seduce, if it were possible, even the elect.
Did the rise of false christs end with the disciples in the first century, Smyth?
This makes three simple questions, and it addresses your assertion that the teaching speaks only to that generation. Until you address these questions we cannot progress. So support your point.
God bless.
You said there must be unbelievers at the end of the Millennium , therefor there must be physical believers at the beginning and that the church is raptured at the end[?] of the Tribulation? Your writing so is incoherent I have no idea of what you're try to say. You want me to address your gibberish? Crazy pretrib cultists....
Okay, so you are grasping part of what I am saying, let's weed out the false argument in your mind that is keeping you frmo understanding what I am saying:
I did not say that the Church is raptured at the end of the Tribulation, but have with concise statement made it clear consistently that the Church cannot be raptured at the end because of the first two points:
Now that you understand I am saying this, try to consider the rest of the point:
If the Church is raptured at the end of the Tribulation...this would leave no physical believers to repopulate the world from which the unbelievers that gather with Satan come from.
Perhaps it is a little too concise for you at this stage of the development of your Eschatology.
But, you did make that demand of me, so I offer no apology.
Actually, I want you to quote what you see as gibberish so I can clarify, as I have done here, that which is confusing you.
You should ween such talk from your posting, Smyth. Not only is it a violation of Forum Rules it only makes you look bad. You will get support for this kind of attitude from some of the members here, perhaps many of them, but, if you're walk with Christ consists of slandering people and glorying in mutual agreement in slander...
...then you are also confused of the commands given you by the Lord.
When you can understand the Pre-Tribulation Rapture position, and can from Scripture show that it is not consistent with all Prophecy, perhaps you might have authority to judge who is a cult member and who is not. You will never successfully debate with those who hold to false doctrine if you do not first understand what it is they teach. Creating false arguments and debating those only profits you and your ego.
But as long as your only contribution to the debate is slander and insult, you will be viewed as a babe in both Doctrine and Practice.
Now, if you have no intention of debating the Pre-Tribulation Rapture, then stop wasting space in this thread.
God bless.
I am new to this forum. I have read the content you have posted as well as the replies you have received. I notice that most people who reply to you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the point you made with this post. I do understand what you said, but I reject the pretrib position. It is the only tenant of faith I reject as a Fundamentalist Baptist. I believe in a post trib rapture, though i strongly disagree with the doctrine normally associated with that title. The eschatalogical view promoted by Wesleyans, Pentecostals, Methodist, Presbyterians etc. is clearly unbiblical. When I say I believe in a post trib rapture, I am refering to the time frame and not the doctrinal system. Since this is my first post I will wait for your reply before I address the point you made
I am new to this forum. I noticed your thread and the replies you received. I see the people who responded to you have a fundamental misunderstanding of the points you were making. I am a fundamentalist baptist, but I reject the teaching of a Pretribulational rapture. I firmly, undoubtedly believe in a post tribulational rapture. I use that name as a refrence to time and not to the well know doctrinal system. The post trib framework espoused by the Wesleyans, Pentecostals, Methodist, and Calvinist is clearly unbiblical and in most points heretical. So I use the term post trib in refrence to timing only and not to the doctrinal system.
In reading your points I noticed there are some things you have overlooked and not considered in your doctrinal position. I would love to discuss this topic with you from a humble and mature position. No name calling or arrogance. We are Christian men and will behave as such. Look forward to your reply
In reading your points I noticed there are some things you have overlooked and not considered in your doctrinal position. I would love to discuss this topic with you from a humble and mature position. No name calling or arrogance. We are Christian men and will behave as such. Look forward to your reply
The pre-trib rapture is not part any denomination's tradition predating the 20th-century.
Correct. I was referring to the post trib. View that has been espoused by such denominations as presbeterians, wesleyans, methodist and pentecostals. Their teaching of the post trib rapture I believe is unbiblical. Though I do believe in a post trib rapture, I do not support the viewpoint and interpretations used by these denominationas to assert a post trib rapture. Be sure to read the thread carefully. This will lead to a much more informative dialog and progress in understanding