Featured How ‘Free Grace’ Theology Diminishes the Gospel

I am very well aware of this grammatical argument but it is flawed for many reasons. First, there is no argument that in the act of coversion, an aorist tense action that the old man was "put off". It was put off in the act of justification as we legally died to sin once and for all. No argument there. But it was not destroyed because if it were destroyed there would be no later command to "through the Spirit mortify the deeds of the flesh." Romans 7:14-25 describes trying to mortify the deeds of the flesh by pure will power which is a futile exercise.

 

Spiritual separation from God is spiritual separation from life, light and holiness. Spiritual union with God is restoration to God's life, light and holiness. All three acts of restoration are creative acts and all are inseparable creative acts by God.

Quickening which is restoration of the life of God is a creative act - Eph. 2:10

"Light of knowledge" is restoration to the light of God is a creative act - 2 Cor. 4:6

righteousness is restoration to the holiness of God is a creative act - Eph. 4:24; Col. 3:10

All three acts are combined to obtain spiritual union with God and it is one creative act that accomplishes all three aspects.

So Ephesians 4:24 and Colossians 3:10 refer to that aspect of restoration to spiritual union with God that was destroyed by spiritual separation due to the act of sin. Spiritual separation is the initial act of death.

Not only has there been an aorist punctilar action of putting off the old man at conversion but there has been an aorist punctilar action of putting on the new man at conversion.

However, here is what David Loyd Jones and John MacArthur, and others who follow their lead fail to understand in their interpretation of Romans 7:14-25 and the "put on" and "put off" aorist tense actions. These punctilar actions continue after conversion. For example, he tells those already saved, baptized and church members to "put on" charity and to "put on....as the elect of God bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;" which is just another way of saying "put on the new man." The same aorist tense action AFTER conversion, and AFTER baptism and AFTER church membership.

He tells the Colossians "But NOW ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth." which is just another way to say "put off the old man." Notice he is speaking to those already saved and baptized church members who are "NOW" to do this.

So these expositors are SERIOUSLY wrong when they say these are past tense completed actions altogether that occurred solely and only at new birth. What they have done is taken a truth, which did occur at new birth, to oppose another truth and that is such aorist tense actions continue to characterize the Christian life till death with regard to the law of indwelling sin and the indwelling Spirit of God. This is not a small error but a very significant serious error as it is the mother of other errors that are based upon this basic error.

 

It is a serious error to interpret Romans 7:14-25 to be a lost person and it is a serious error to interpret "put on" and "put off" with respect to the old and new man as non-repetitive aorist tense actions after new birth. If you really want to know the truth the aorist tense command to "put on the new man" is one and the same command to "walk in the Spirit." The aorist tense command to "put off the old man" is one and the same command that we should not "walk after the flesh" meaning manifest the fruit of the Spirit in your thoughts, words and actions. Now, is there anyone on this forum going to claim they always "walk in the Spirit" 24/7?????? Is there anyone on the forum going to claim they never "walk after the flesh" meaning they never "fulfill the lusts of the flesh" meaning they never manifest the works of the flesh in their thoughts, words and actions?

When you are manifesting the works of the flesh, you are walking after the flesh and you have put on the old man in your conversation and the works of the flesh prove it. So what command in an aorist tense action should you obey when you are walking, living, manifesting the works of the old man? Yes, "Put on the new man" as an aorist tense action. How do you do that? Not by taking an act of will power or self-determination as in Romans 7:14-25 as that leads only to frustration and defeat. In fact, that kind of action is continuing to walk after the flesh and continuing to enforce the old man. You do it by SELF-DENIAL through yeilding to the indwelling Spirit and by faith trust him to empower or "put on the new man" meaning you come under the control of the Holy Spirit who empowers the regenerate nature thus manifesting the fruit of the Spirit in and through you. That is how one "mortifies the flesh" by the Spirit.

If you don't understand this truth you don't understand the basics of living the Christian life or living the victorious life or what Christ calls "life more abundantly" which begins in conversion by an aorist tense action where you realize 'without me ye can do nothing." Christian growth is expanding that truth in every action of your every day life - this is dying daily to self. It always begins with a conscious aorist tense action of self-denial and complete trust in God's strength to face the moment.

 

Thank you for your explanation. I believe we are only a new man,commanded to mortify the deeds of the body, the motions of sin.Sin no longer reigns yet because of remaining corruption we will struggle against sin.
We agree on the importance of mortification.The language used is not easy. Just wanted to know your view....

 

There can be no "motions" of sin without a source to sustain "motion." The error of sinless perfection is a result of that kind of theology. If sin no longer reigns in the flesh there would be no need to "mortify it" through the Spirit as "mortify" means put to death and you cannot put to death what is already dead or non-existent.

Moreover, look at the language "put ON" and "put OFF" rather than "put IN" or "put OUT." The langauge is that of clothing or apparel that is worn ON THE OUTSIDE or the MANIFEST LIFE just as Christ is "put on" by baptism.

Finally, does not Paul say "as ye received (aorist tense) so walk ye IN HIM." We received him as an aorist tense action. Although our spirit is not being reborn or resaved, our walk (daily life) is being saved or lost daily depending on whether or not we make deliberate point action conscious determinations to put on Christ daily by dying daily to the indwelling law of sin in our members. So to suggest that the initial "put on" and "put off" ceased with conversion is contrary to the command to walk "as ye received."

I think Loyd-Jones and MacArthur's interpretative view is a failure to properly understand the three-fold process of salvation with regard to the threefold nature of man. They only see the salvation of the spirit or new birth, but fail to understand the salvation of the soul/life which involves the daily walk of putting on and putting off with regard to the soul (intellect, affections, will) that is manifested in attitudes, words and actions or the life. To set your affections on things above is synonymous with "put on" the new man which is snynomous with "walk in the Spirit".

I hope you will prayerfully reconsider.

 

Romans 7:14-25 presents the trichotomy of Paul's human nature. There is the "I" of self-conciousness or his "soul" which includes volition "I will" ("to will is present with ME) and affections "which I hate...delight". In addition to the consicous self or soul is the regenerated "inward man" or his spirit born of God. Then there is the unregenerated body ("my members...this body...).

The Spirit of God indwells Paul's spirit or "inward man". The principle or "law" of indwelling sin dwells in Paul's unregenerate aspect of his nature (the body). The soul is the battle ground between the delights of the "inward man" and the drives of the law of sin in the body that "war against the soul."

Paul's problem as a child of God whose spirit has been regenerated is that his soul is without any SELF-POWER to conquer or control the drives of indwelling sin through his body even though his soul (conscious self "I") delights in the Law of God as does the "inward man."l

The problem is PUTTING ON the "inward man" in his conscious self so that it is expressed through his body into his daily life. "To will is present" but it is the POWER to make that is missing. He conciously determines he wants to do "good" but "evil" is present in POWER which his will cannot overpower.

The PROBLEM is that the soul power is not capable or able to overcome the power of indwelling sin that feeds of the natural drives of the body. The "law of sin" empowers those natural drives even though Paul knows better and his will is inclined by new birth to do good as contrasted to his former unregenerate self that was at "enmity with God and was not subject to the law of God" (Rom. 8:7). In other words, the unregenerate state of Paul was religious enough but the disposition of his will was not for the glory of God but for the glory of Paul. Sin is first coming "short of the glory of God." Sin has its origin with motive. Enmity with God begins with motive for what you do. Paul as an unregenerate was zealous for the Law of God but not for the right motive, not for the glory of God but for the glory of Paul. In contrast his regenerate self was inclined to do good for the glory of God but he could not find SOUL POWER to make that inclination effectual to overpower the empowered natural drives of his flesh due to indwelling law of sin.

The more HE tried the more frustrated and futile it became. He had not yet learned that it is only "THROUGH THE SPIRIT rather than THROUGH SELF that one is able to "mortify the deeds of the flesh."

Be honest now. How many times as a child of God you made a willful commitment to do or not to do something and failed? Even in the most rudimentary decisions such as "I will do this tomorrow" have you not learned by trial and error to say "Lord willing, I will do this or that"? Why have you learned to say "Lord willing"? Because you have learned by trial and error that "to will is present with me but how" to enforce that will is not WITH ME but WITH GOD alone.

This is why Romans 7:14-25 is found in the PRESENT TENSE and why Romans 7:25 demands that it is a CONTINUING STATE with regard to SELF as long as we are in this unglorified condition. As long as we have an unregenerate or unglorified body the principle of "corruption" abides and remains active and only at the coming of Christ will this body put on "incorruption".

What many theologians have not learned is this as a theological truth. The principle of incorruption that abides in our body is the indwelling "law of sin" and a as a "law" it operates according to Romans 8:7 always and cannot be saved but must be destroyed in physical death or physical transformation by a creative act of God called glorification.

What they have not learned is that this principle of "corruption' is not merely PHYSICAL corruption but MORAL corruption that uses the natural drives of the physical body (sex, food, comfort, sight, sounds, touch, etc.) to war against the redeemed soul of the saint. That is what Romans 7:14-25 is all about. Romans 8:9-27 is all about HOW to overpower indwelling sin in the body of the saint and "mortify the DEEDS of the flesh". Notice the redeemed saint has "DEEDS" which are attributed to THE FLESH as the source of origin not to the "soul" or the conscious self. The conscious self falls victim and is overpowered by the flesh as to "will is present with me but how to perform I find not" IN SELF. It is only found "in the Spirit" not IN SELF.

 

B are this posts gleaned from Jonathan Edwards, the Way of Holiness? Excellent.

HankD

 

No Hank, they are gleaned from what the Lord has taught me. I have never read Jonathan Edwards book on "the Way of Holiness."

 

Thanks B.

HankD

 

You are very welcome

 

When you speak of crucifying 'SELF' do you mean putting to death the residue of our old sinful nature, or something else? Christians themselves have already been crucified (Romans 6:2-11; Galatians 2:20; Colossians 3:3).

 

It is a daily thing, slowly and gently at first, then (speaking metaphorically) more as we become stronger, able to eat meat, walk on our own...
IMO.

HankD

 

Thanks, Hank, but that's not really what I'm asking Biblicist. He said we have to crucify SELF. I don't believe that we are ever asked to crucify ourselves for the very good reason that it's already happened.
Romans 6:6. 'Knowing this, that our old man was crucified with [Christ], that the body of sin might be done away with.' Galatians 2:20. 'I have been crucified with Christ.......'

The Christian has died to sin and risen to new life (Romans 6:2-4). He is a new creation in Christ Jesus. However, there still remains a residue of sin, not in us but in our mortal bodies or our 'members' (Romans 6:12-13). It is this that we are to put to death. Put to death therefore your members that are on the earth [OK. What are they?]: fornication, uncleanness, passion.......since you have [already] put off the old man with his deeds and have put on the new man' (Colossians 3:5, 9-10).

The Christian walk is one of struggle, 'For the flesh lusts against the Spirit and the Spirit against the flesh, and these are contrary to one another, so that you do not do what you wish' (Galatians 5:17. Compare Romans 7:13ff). But the promise to the Christian is that 'sin shall not have dominion over you' (Romans 6:14). Not 'must not' or 'should not,' 'shall not!' It's absolutely certain. We must rise up against our sinful tendencies and hack them down before the Lord like so many Agags (1 Samuel 15:33).

 

I am not sure of your objection Martin, we are told to "mortify" our members.

You seem mature enough to understand and even desire to put off the old man.

Colossians 3:5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

We see the Corinthians and the sins in which they had become involved - not a pretty sight.

Also those in the church of Thyatira:
Revelation 2:20 Notwithstanding I have a few things against thee, because thou sufferest that woman Jezebel, which calleth herself a prophetess, to teach and to seduce my servants to commit fornication, and to eat things sacrificed unto idols.

I would agree that it is something in which we should cooperate with God - to control our sin nature, to put it under.

Our sinful desires should be nipped in the bud as soon as the lust appears in our heart and mind otherwise it could get out of control and lead to our physical death:

1 John 1:9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just to forgive us our sins, and to cleanse us from all unrighteousness.

Notice that we confess (acknowledge) and He forgives and provides the righteousness..

Romans 8:13 For if ye live after the flesh, ye shall die: but if ye through the Spirit do mortify the deeds of the body, ye shall live.

Our flesh will be with us until our spirit leaves our body, but we can be overcomers and I don't mean sinless perfection but as those who with the Spirit of God and the word watch and control through the acknowledging of our sin and our adamic being.

Proverbs 8:34 Blessed is the man that heareth me, watching daily at my gates, waiting at the posts of my doors.

Psalm 119:11 Thy word have I hid in mine heart, that I might not sin against thee.

HankD

 

I am referring to the daily, if not moment by moment refusing to depend on self, but resting in Christ, or taking up the cross of self-denial, self-assertion, self-centeredness that is always present and pressing to take control of your daily life. Yes, the residue of the fallen nature is always demanding control.

 

"The Biblicist,

Sorry...but we are not told to mortify...{THE OLD MAN}...You agree the the action is all of God at conversion.....We are told this;
this 8 minute section offers another view....

 

here is the next section;

 

Bro. Downing is a fine Christian gentleman and we agree on many things. However, he and you both fail to see that in Romans 7:15-21 the will is inclined to good or engaged to do good but it is the power that is missing to put the will for good into action.

In Romans 6 we have the exhortation that the will of the child of God is no longer inclined toward unrighteousness but toward righteousness and that is the evidence he is the servant of God. In chapter seven Paul then confronts the issue of the law with regard to the believer and its standard of righteousness. In Romans 7:1-6 the child of God is dead LEGALLY to the law by the body of Christ. The body of Christ has legally satisfied the law's penalty and the body of Christ has satisfied the Law's standard for righteousness as Christ fulfilled the law in his own body. Hence, it is no longer about us and the law as we are dead to the law by the body of Christ. In Romans 7:7-13 the past tense Saul of Tarsus could never satisfy the righteousness of the law in his own body. Prior to being aware of the Law's definition of sin, Saul had no experiential sense of condemnation by the law. However, when he came to realize what the law really demanded, he died, meaning, he was condemned to death by that standard. The fault was not in the law but in him as the law is righteous, good and holy. The point is that the natural Saul of tarsus can't do what jesus did in his own body and his personal experience with the law IN HIS OWN BODY ultimately demonstrated that.

This brings us to Romans 7:14-25. Please note the will has now been engaged or inclined to serve God, with the mind he serves God. However, in the regenerate Paul he still cannot satisfy the law in his own body even by an inclined mind or will to do good. He does not have power to enforce his will to do good, or to enforce his mind to serve God through his body and the problem is found in his body. That problem is the law of sin.

So what Christ did in his body to satisfy the law, neither Saul of Tarsus can do in his own body, and neither can Paul the Apostle do in his own body. The answer is that righteousnesss being expressed through his own body does not come from his self-righteousness as a lost person or from hiswill power or his inclination to do good as a saved person but from the indwelling power of the Spirit (Rom. 8:4). Just as the Saul of Tarsus had to die to self in order to be saved by Christ, that is he had to completely repudiate self-ability, self-glory and self-effort in order to saved by God, so the saved Paul the apostle must continue repeating that very thing till he dies in order to serve God in his own body or else he will be frustrated and defeated as his own body is the weapon used by the law of sin. "As ye received the Lord Jesus Christ, so walk ye in him" and "Without me ye can DO NOTHING" is the lesson of Romans 7:14-25.

However, the inclination of the will for righteousness in Romans 7:14-25 has been changed from the unregenerate state of Romans 8:7. He now "delights in the Law of God after the inward man" and now his will is inclined to "do good." His mind is not like the mind in Romans 8:7 which is at enmity with God and not subject to the law of God but the "mind" of Paul in Romans 7:25 is a mindset to "serve God" demonstrating who his real master is just as Bro. Downing described. The body and indwelling sin will NEVER change their service to sin. The regenerate mind will never change its inclination to serve Christ and it is this parallel truth that Romans 7:25 states clearly. This parallel state continues until death of the body or glorification of the body but in the mean time the mutual committment of the body governed by the law of sin does not change and neither does the committment of the regenerate mind to serve Christ does not change. They remain in combat throughout life and the only relief and victory does not come by the power of our will but by the power of the indwelling Spirit of God.

The problem here is "the body" and its inseparable relationship with the power of indwelling law of sin. The body of the lost Saul could not satisfy the law because of indwelling sin that ruled in his spirit. The body of the saved Paul cannot satisfy the law because of indwelling sin in his body. Thus one must not only be judicially dead to the law by "THE BODY" of Christ but one must also be EXPERIENTIALLY dead to the law by "THE BODY" of Christ. Or to say it another way, one must be dead to self in order to be saved, and one must continuing dying to self in order to serve God and in both cases it is by the power of the Spirit of God. Just as the problem that prevents initial salvation is SELF, so it is SELF that is the problem of saved person serving God. Death to self is the answer in both cases - repetitive aorist tense death. The positive view of this is repettitive aorist tense filling of the Spirit (Eph. 5:18).

That is why those who are said to be already "dead" to sin in chapter six of romans are further instructed in chapter 8 of Romes to "mortify the deeds of THE BODY by the Spirit" demonstrating that positional or legal death with regeneration obtains heaven and alters the inclination of the will from serving sin to serving Christ, but the inclined will still has NO POWER to do what it now wants to do and it is THE BODY of the saint that still cannot satisfy the Law's righteousness any more than THE BODY of the unregenerate could satisfy the Law's righteousness. Only Christ can in his own body and only the Spirit of Christ can IN OUR BDDY - we can't and the more we try the more frustrated we will become "O Wretched man that I am who shall deliver me from THIS BODY of death." The saint retains that body of death until physical death or transformation. Only Jesus Christ can now deliver him from the PRECENCE and POWER of the law of sin in THE BODY and only the second coming of Jesus Christ can deliver him from the PRESENCE and POWER of indwelling sin in HIS BODY.

In Romans 6 the solution is presented in the act of water baptism that identifies the child of God publicly with the resurrected life of Christ. It is the POWER of his resurrected life in the believer that is the key to overcoming sin in the life of the believer. Paul's response to justifcation by faith without works promoting sin is that justification does not occur without regeneration and both are visibly testified of in water baptism. Going down in the water identifies us with the likeness of his death - being dead to sin by the body of Christ - justification. Coming up out of the water identifies us with the POWER of the resurrected life of Christ, the power now in us in the indwelling person of the Spirit of Christ who regenerated us and which will ultimately overrule the principle of indwelling corruption in our physical bodies in the resurrection to come or transformation. The words "yeild" and "yeild not" and "reckon" demonstrating they are not ABSOLUTELY dead to sin's power or presence in their unglorified bodies.

 

The Biblicist,

Hello B,
Thanks for taking time to consider what was offered. I am glad we can agree on some of these things. I think we also agree that paul speaks as a believer here.

Yes we are now willing bondslaves....no carnal christian here.

agreed

Correct...that is why we are commanded to mortify;
3 For ye are dead, and your life is hid with Christ in God.

4 When Christ, who is our life, shall appear, then shall ye also appear with him in glory.

5 Mortify therefore your members which are upon the earth; fornication, uncleanness, inordinate affection, evil concupiscence, and covetousness, which is idolatry:

6 For which things' sake the wrath of God cometh on the children of disobedience:

agreed

NO...here is where we differ....Paul does not have to "repeat" the old man dying......HE IS TO RECKON IT TO BE A FACT AND LIVE IN LIGHT OF IT.
The idea being expressed is......in light of your new converted reality of saving UNION with Christ, live as a child of light.....It is so....now live like it, that is why after instructing believers to mortify their members in col3 he can then say this;
7 In the which ye also walked some time, when ye lived in them.

8 But now ye also put off all these; anger, wrath, malice, blasphemy, filthy communication out of your mouth.

9 Lie not one to another, seeing that ye have put off the old man with his deeds;

10 And have put on the new man, which is renewed in knowledge after the image of him that created him:

11 Where there is neither Greek nor Jew, circumcision nor uncircumcision, Barbarian, Scythian, bond nor free: but Christ is all, and in all.

12 Put on therefore, as the elect of God, holy and beloved, bowels of mercies, kindness, humbleness of mind, meekness, longsuffering;


13 Forbearing one another, and forgiving one another, if any man have a quarrel against any: even as Christ forgave you, so also do ye.

14 And above all these things put on charity, which is the bond of perfectness.

15 And let the peace of God rule in your hearts, to the which also ye are called in one body; and be ye thankful.

16 Let the word of Christ dwell in you richly in all wisdom; teaching and admonishing one another in psalms and hymns and spiritual songs, singing with grace in your hearts to the Lord.

17 And whatsoever ye do in word or deed, do all in the name of the Lord Jesus, giving thanks to God and the Father by him.
He refers back to pre conversion, and then points them forward to how shall they then live.

In the parallel passage in EPH,4-5 He sums it up;
5 Be ye therefore followers of God, as dear children;

2 And walk in love, as Christ also hath loved us, and hath given himself for us an offering and a sacrifice to God for a sweetsmelling savour.

3 But fornication, and all uncleanness, or covetousness, let it not be once named among you, as becometh saints;

4 Neither filthiness, nor foolish talking, nor jesting, which are not convenient: but rather giving of thanks.

5 For this ye know, that no whoremonger, nor unclean person, nor covetous man, who is an idolater, hath any inheritance in the kingdom of Christ and of God.

6 Let no man deceive you with vain words: for because of these things cometh the wrath of God upon the children of disobedience.

7 Be not ye therefore partakers with them.

8 For ye were sometimes darkness, but now are ye light in the Lord: walk as children of light:

 

pt2;

agreed

agreed

agreed

This he says we are to "reckon to be so"

agree

This is a big can of worms...I do not believe it is water baptism in romans 6, but Spirit baptism is in view.
Water baptism does picture our identification with Christ but if this was water baptism it would be baptismal regeneration which neither of us believe.

I thank you once again for clarifying your view.It is not my intent here to "go after you", lol...I do enjoy and learn from many of your posts.
We can at this point each hold what we see as true, although one of the views most likely comes short.
We do agree Paul is a believer in rom 7
We do agree all believers have to mortify remaining sin and corruption.
We exchanged our thoughts, some of which i believe might even be similar just using different terms....{what you and others call the old man} i believe is not the old man, but the deeds of the body, your members, etc