Our Apostle, Paul of Tarsus, said that God's gifts to Israel (those of the child of promise - not all those who are called Israel ARE Israel) are irrevocable. What has happened over the centuries, and even now, to those who have not heard or rejected the call to belief in Y'shua?
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Irrevocable:
- Thread starter Frank Leyland
- Start date
Yes, I KNOW the quote and its exact location. Its the answer to my included question I'm looking for.
FL (UK)
FL (UK)
Jesus is God. There are none who have not heard and rejected the call to believe in God (Jesus). All have turned aside.
If you mean, however, what of those who have rejected God (who have rejected the Light through Whom they were even created) and are condemned already but never hear the gospel message and/or never reject the fuller revelation the Father revealed in the Son....what of them? I guess they simply stand guilty for rejecting God's revelation that they did hear and the call to belief/repentance that they did receive. The phrase "if only I had known" does not alter actions in light of what was known. The problem was never knowledge, it was the heart upon which the seed is sown.
Yes, but since OUR Apostle Paul of Tarsus and chosen by Jesus for this task, how many have promoted his teaching SINCE those days? And to what extent, if any, is Gentile inclusion in His plans responsible for provoking Israel to jealousy, in that some of them may be saved? And I am not talking about evangelism here. Paul was talking about something else.
And another thing - if they are ELECT then thay are already saved anyway aren't they? SO why was Paul trying to lead them to salvation via envy of The Christian Gentiles? (When they are already saved by being elect).
And another thing - if they are ELECT then thay are already saved anyway aren't they? SO why was Paul trying to lead them to salvation via envy of The Christian Gentiles? (When they are already saved by being elect).
Israelites are not the elect, as Paul shows in Romans 11, as only a remnant of them are saved and that Paul says jealousy will save some of them.
The Elect come out of all nations of Earth. We are saved by God's sovereign choice, but our acceptance of Christ, from our perspective, is our choice. An Elect of the Isrealites in the first century might say, "Who is this Jesus that people from all nations are coming to? I want to know more..."
There still appears to be conflict here. For instance, Pharoah was NEVER going to have a choice but the Elect through Israel (not all of them) and Jacob were Divinely elected from the word go. As God's promises are irrevocable and the above had never heard of Y'shua, it appears that they are still saved because of Election. Sin was not counted before The Law, and the implication is that salvation through Messiah was automatic for The Chosen without knowledge of Him. "...they are your enemies on account of The Gospel... but beloved because..."
There still appears to be conflict here. For instance, Pharoah was NEVER going to have a choice but the Elect through Israel (not all of them) and Jacob were Divinely elected from the word go. As God's promises are irrevocable and the above had never heard of Y'shua, it appears that they are still saved because of Election. Sin was not counted before The Law, and the implication is that salvation through Messiah was automatic for The Chosen without knowledge of Him. "...they are your enemies on account of The Gospel... but beloved because..."
Gerhard,
which post do you think is wonderful and why? Do you mean the whole issue I raised or the last reply?
Expound if you will.
Frank, UK.
which post do you think is wonderful and why? Do you mean the whole issue I raised or the last reply?
Expound if you will.
Frank, UK.
To Smyth.
And Paul states that, of Israel, the Elect will spring from the child of Faith, through Isaac, and others too from The Gentiles who have Faith, not The Law of Moses. So some of Israel ARE of The Elect.
And Paul states that, of Israel, the Elect will spring from the child of Faith, through Isaac, and others too from The Gentiles who have Faith, not The Law of Moses. So some of Israel ARE of The Elect.
And "Smyth" is wrong. Scripturally, some of Israel ARE of The Elect.
First, the children of promise are called and are saved and that is the "remnant" in every generation from the first century to the present day. With regard to those who have not heard the gospel or rejected the gospel they have perished in their sins based upon just condemnation due to their own unrepentance of known sin.
Knowledge of sin is sufficient to condemn a person to hell and sufficient to judge them as worthy of hell. The gospel is an act of mercy and grace and none can demand mercy or grace on the basis of "justice" as that repudiates that it is of mercy or of grace. Willful sin is sufficient for justice to act and all have knowingly sinned (Rom. 3:9-23) and it is sin that condemns us already (Jn. 3:17-18) regardless if we ever hear the gospel or not. It is our response to known sin that justice says deserves hell.
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So you are stating then that some who did not know Y'shua before His incarnation are saved?
Because that would be salvation by "works", which Paul took great pains to explain was not at all possible.
Because that would be salvation by "works", which Paul took great pains to explain was not at all possible.
So you are stating then that some who did not know Y'shua before His incarnation are saved?
Because that would be salvation by "works", which Paul took great pains to explain was not at all possible.
Because that would be salvation by "works", which Paul took great pains to explain was not at all possible.
Real Christians do works for free and don't weigh whether it pays salvation or not like a harlot.
Their mind is not on salvation first willing to give up their own for another.
Romans 9
1I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit, 2that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. 3For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh,
^I would eat my own shoe if some of you started to sound ANYTHING like Paul. THAT is true Christian.
Romans 11
28From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
Paul is willing to give up salvation for his brothers and sisters. God one-ups Paul, putting everyone under the judgment of disobedience.
Mercy is only actual mercy when a wrong has been forgiven.
That's why if you think God poured out all wrath towards you on Jesus instead.......That's not forgiveness at all.
Forgiveness is you don't have to pay for it. If you owe me 100$ and your Mom pays for it. I didn't forgive you, that is just you have been paid for.
To show mercy. God has concluded and shut up all in disobedience. There is only one team.
People seek this US vs THEM combative attitude. God says no all of you are one disobedient group.
Their mind is not on salvation first willing to give up their own for another.
Romans 9
1I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit, 2that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. 3For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh,
^I would eat my own shoe if some of you started to sound ANYTHING like Paul. THAT is true Christian.
Romans 11
28From the standpoint of the gospel they are enemies for your sake, but from the standpoint of God’s choice they are beloved for the sake of the fathers; 29for the gifts and the calling of God are irrevocable. 30For just as you once were disobedient to God, but now have been shown mercy because of their disobedience, 31so these also now have been disobedient, that because of the mercy shown to you they also may now be shown mercy. 32For God has shut up all in disobedience so that He may show mercy to all.
Paul is willing to give up salvation for his brothers and sisters. God one-ups Paul, putting everyone under the judgment of disobedience.
Mercy is only actual mercy when a wrong has been forgiven.
That's why if you think God poured out all wrath towards you on Jesus instead.......That's not forgiveness at all.
Forgiveness is you don't have to pay for it. If you owe me 100$ and your Mom pays for it. I didn't forgive you, that is just you have been paid for.
To show mercy. God has concluded and shut up all in disobedience. There is only one team.
People seek this US vs THEM combative attitude. God says no all of you are one disobedient group.
I've never been wrong, except one time. I said some of Israel are the Elect. I said or implied it three times in the post you replied to. I just said Israel is not the Elect, as in Israel = Elect.
Do you really think Paul would give up salvation for others, and for no clear reason? It's not an option, it's practically meaningless to make the offer. Paul is only expressing his anguish concerning the pending eternal damnation of the majority of his race.
God didn't collect your debt from your mom. If you're saved, he forgave your debt. It's like if you broke my window and I pay to have my window fixed himself.
It may not be us vs. them, but it is them vs. us.
I KNOW Paul would. He said it right there:
Romans 9
1I am telling the truth in Christ, I am not lying, my conscience testifies with me in the Holy Spirit, 2that I have great sorrow and unceasing grief in my heart. 3For I could wish that I myself were accursed, separated from Christ for the sake of my brethren, my kinsmen according to the flesh,
Paul would go to hell to save a person.
A selfish person doesn't understand that. Out to save their own skin first.
The holy spirit isn't selfish.
With God nothing is impossible.
"It may not be us vs. them, but it is them vs. us."
You need to learn the very basics. Love your enemies. Its us for us. Pick people up instead of looking to stomp them.
You can only love God as much as the one you hate most.
Repeating your error makes you still wrong. I can repeat my unanswered argument, and still be right: An offer that can't be called upon is next to meaningless. And, if it could be done, Paul chose not to give up his salvation but continued serving Christ until he was martyred. Paul is engaged in something the dictionary labels as hyperbole. Either that, or Paul is thinking of something more temporal than salvation.