Republicans kicking the middle-class (opposing Death Tax)

[Smyth]

The Republican party often functions as the enemy of the middle-class. Their opposition to the Estate Tax (Death Tax) is an example. The neoconservative Christian news website One News Now illustrates this with an article that quotes someone saying "It's a burden on middle-class families and on small businesses, but not the super-rich”.

Excuse me. Last year the Estate Tax didn’t tax a penny of wealth below $5.45 million dollars. $10.9 million for married couples. I think that’s bit above what I would label middle-class. And, planning can easily get assets excluded from the Estate tax.

Without the estate tax, the government will have lost revenue to make up. If the estate tax is eliminated, then capital gains taxes will be applied. That means that the middle-class will be paying taxes, income taxes and capital gains taxes on estates that are now untaxed because middle-class inheritances are below the exclusion amount. If your mom leaves you her $100,000 house and you sell it, you’ll pay about $15,000 in taxes, verses zero now.

If Republicans want the Whitehouse, or if they just care about the middle-class, they need to stop being seen as the party of the rich and of war. And, Christians need to stop being suckers for the rich and for war.

 

[InTheLight]

Without the estate tax, the government will have lost revenue to make up. If the estate tax is eliminated, then capital gains taxes will be applied. That means that the middle-class will be paying taxes, income taxes and capital gains taxes on estates that are now untaxed because middle-class inheritances are below the exclusion amount. If your mom leaves you her $100,000 house and you sell it, you’ll pay about $15,000 in taxes, verses zero now.

Well, this is cute.

You make a bald assertion, "If the estate tax is eliminated, then capital gains taxes will be applied." That is pure conjecture on your part.

You just make up strawmen and go on your merry way.

The estate tax should be opposed on moral grounds. It's immoral to tax someone's earnings all their life and then upon death decide that is a taxable event too. The size of the estate should not even enter into the discussion. You don't tax someone for dying.



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[Rob_BW]

Ah, the estate tax, that destroys many family owned businesses and prevents farms from being handed down to one's heirs.

I agree with ITL, if the income and property was taxed throughout a person's life, how on earth is it just to take another bite out of it when that person dies.

 

[Smyth]

The estate tax replaced the capital gains tax. And, given that the government doesn't do net tax cuts, the capital gains tax will kick in again if the estate tax is repealed. This will result in the middle-class paying taxes on inheritances. This is less conjecture than those who disagree are naive. (Even if capital gains taxes don't kick in, how fair is it for some people to avoid capital gains taxes that the rest of us have to pay, just because they're inheriting the assets?)

The estate tax does not destroy family businesses. The article from One News New argues that a farm combine can cost over $300,000. But, a combine starts losing value the day it is bought and in seven years, it is depreciated to zero. Farm land is dirt cheap. So, the only farms that get hit by the estate tax are huge factory farms. A rich farmer can escape some of the estate tax by transferring assets to his children before death (anyone running a farm with net worth of over $11 million dollars is already paying tax professionals who know to do this). Farmers also enjoy many special tax breaks and government subsidies that more than pay for the estate tax.

Even if you suckers weren't as naive about the estate tax as I believe you to be, don't forget the bigger picture. The Republicans struggle to win the White House in large part because they're seen as the party of the rich and of war. Because of the exclusion, the estate tax only hits the rich, who can pay the tax and continue to live luxuriously. So, do you really think the estate tax is a place to expend your energy in battle?

Wise up. Don't be neoconned.

 

[Rob_BW]

Farm land is dirt cheap? Now I know not to take your opinion on this matter seriously.

 

[InTheLight]

The estate tax replaced the capital gains tax. And, given that the government doesn't do net tax cuts, the capital gains tax will kick in again if the estate tax is repealed.

Uh-huh. S-u-u-u-u-r-e. I would ask you to show me the legislation where this clause is written down but proving your points are non-starters with you.

This will result in the middle-class paying taxes on inheritances. This is less conjecture than those who disagree are naive. (Even if capital gains taxes don't kick in, how fair is it for some people to avoid capital gains taxes that the rest of us have to pay, just because they're inheriting the assets?)

It depends on what sort of asset you inherit. If you inherit stocks and bonds, your cost basis is the price on the date the person died. When you go to sell that security, if it has appreciated, you WILL pay capital gains tax on it.

The estate tax does not destroy family businesses. The article from One News New argues that a farm combine can cost over $300,000. But, a combine starts losing value the day it is bought and in seven years, it is depreciated to zero.

Wow. Yes, it is worth zero as listed on a balance sheet. But it is worth something when it will be sold and it's value will be counted as part of the estate.

Farm land is dirt cheap.

This is hilarious. I tell you what--I inherited some farm land a couple of years ago. It was not "dirt cheap". In fact it was a nice windfall for the four heirs.

So, the only farms that get hit by the estate tax are huge factory farms.

No, no, no. (Where to you get these ideas?) The upper limit for estates is $5M, but before this, like 5 years ago, it was $2M. It was not difficult for the owner of a mid-sized farm to have land and equipment worth more than $2M. It is a bit tougher to get over $5M, but these people with farms worth more than $5M is not a mere 1% of the farmer population, as you contend.

A rich farmer can escape some of the estate tax by transferring assets to his children before death (anyone running a farm with net worth of over $11 million dollars is already paying tax professionals who know to do this).

Yes, if they know they are going to die, then you can gift family members a certain amount every year (I think it is $12,000).

Farmers also enjoy many special tax breaks and government subsidies that more than pay for the estate tax.

Wow, you sound like a Democrat. Tax breaks pay for taxes! That's funny.

Even if you suckers weren't as naive about the estate tax as I believe you to be, don't forget the bigger picture. The Republicans struggle to win the White House in large part because they're seen as the party of the rich and of war. Because of the exclusion, the estate tax only hits the rich, who can pay the tax and continue to live luxuriously.

So, do you really think the estate tax is a place to expend your energy in battle?

It's immoral to tax someone's property that was bought with money that has already been taxed just because they die. So, yes, it's a worthy fight.

 

[Smyth]

Uh-huh. S-u-u-u-u-r-e. I would ask you to show me the legislation where this clause is written down but proving your points are non-starters with you.

Show me viable legislation to repeal the estate tax that and I'll show you legislation that will impose taxes on middle-class inheritance. Until then, you'll have to rely on your tedious obtuseness to bet on a tax cuts for the rich that doesn't include some sort of revenue preserving mechanism that'll hit the middle-class, specifically the one the estate tax displaced.

It depends on what sort of asset you inherit. If you inherit stocks and bonds, your cost basis is the price on the date the person died. When you go to sell that security, if it has appreciated, you WILL pay capital gains tax on it.

Appreciation after inheritance is irrelevant to our discussion.

Wow. Yes, it is worth zero as listed on a balance sheet. But it is worth something when it will be sold and it's value will be counted as part of the estate.

An old combine has a relatively low assessed value.

This is hilarious. I tell you what--I inherited some farm land a couple of years ago. It was not "dirt cheap". In fact it was a nice windfall for the four heirs.

Any significant inheritance is a nice windfall for the heirs. And, Farm Land is still dirt cheap. A thousand acre farm would be assessed at less than a million dollars for the land. A thousand-acre farm is also far beyond a "family farm". It might be privately owned, but it's still a big business.

No, no, no. (Where to you get these ideas?) The upper limit for estates is $5M, but before this, like 5 years ago, it was $2M. It was not difficult for the owner of a mid-sized farm to have land and equipment worth more than $2M. It is a bit tougher to get over $5M, but these people with farms worth more than $5M is not a mere 1% of the farmer population, as you contend.

It doesn't matter what it was in the past. In spite of you neoconservatives trashing the image of Republican party, portraying it as a party that doesn't care about the working men, by trying to get the estate tax repealed, the estate tax is is more a settled tax issue than ever. It has only recently become a permanent part of the tax code. Last year, the exemption was $10.9 million dollars, and it's indexed to inflation.

Yes, if they know they are going to die, then you can gift family members a certain amount every year (I think it is $12,000).

The parents can give children assets, especially undervalued assets, before those assets appreciate (this can be up to $28000 per year per child and before triggering the gift tax). Or, paying working family members generously with land/stock. (This dodges the estate tax, but subjects the inheritance to capital gains.)

Wow, you sound like a Democrat. Tax breaks pay for taxes! That's funny.

Okay, I'll give you that. But, the point is, that for those crying about taxing the estates of rich farmers, those farmers already enjoy a lot of special government benefits. Those farmers themselves would prefer to keep the estate tax than lose those government benefits. How's this to not sounding like a Democrat: A repeal of the estate tax should also include a repeal of all special treatment of farms by the government.

It's immoral to tax someone's property that was bought with money that has already been taxed just because they die. So, yes, it's a worthy fight.

What's moral about taxing Americans for capital gains, when those who have windfall capital gains as heirs don't pay capital gains taxes?[/quote]

 

[carpro]

I oppose the death tax based on the principle of double taxation and in the inteest of curbing government greed.

 

[Smyth]

I oppose the death tax based on the principle of double taxation and in the inteest of curbing government greed.

What do you want? Do you want to replace the Estate Tax with a Capital Gains tax which will hit the middle-class? Or, do you want inheritance to be tax-free, so rich families can accumulate wealth without paying Capital Gains taxes on their profits? Meanwhile, the middle-class has to pay Capital Gains taxes on their investments, at least what they can’t hold onto to leave to their heirs. The middle class is also paying 30%+ marginal rate on their earned income, while billionaires skate around paying 15% on their marginal unearned income (because it’s mostly Capital Gains, which is already taxed much lower than earned income).

The Estate Tax is a substitute for the Capital Gains tax. It’s not double-taxation.

 

[carpro]

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The Estate Tax is a substitute for the Capital Gains tax. It’s not double-taxation.

Wrong.

 

[Smyth]

Wrong.

Do you want to return to Capital Gains taxes for inheritances?

 

[carpro]

Do you want to return to Capital Gains taxes for inheritances?

No inheritance taxes whatsoever. For anyone. Ever.

 

[Smyth]

No inheritance taxes whatsoever. For anyone. Ever.

So, want Capital Gain profits to be tax-free? For just heirs or everyone?

 

[carpro]

So, want Capital Gain profits to be tax-free? For just heirs or everyone?

No inheritance taxes whatsoever. For anyone. Ever.

 

[Smyth]

No inheritance taxes whatsoever. For anyone. Ever.

You didn't answer my question: No capital gains taxes for everyone, or just for heirs?

 

[carpro]

You didn't answer my question: No capital gains taxes for everyone, or just for heirs?

No inheritance taxes whatsoever. For anyone. Ever.

 

[Smyth]

No inheritance taxes whatsoever. For anyone. Ever.

Forget inheritance taxes. Let's talk about just Capital Gains taxes. Do you think we should eliminate Capital Gains taxes on everyone, no one, or just heirs?

FYI, the Capital Gains tax is a tax on the profit you make when you buy something like stocks or land and then sell it.

 

[carpro]

Forget inheritance taxes. Let's talk about just Capital Gains taxes. Do you think we should eliminate Capital Gains taxes on everyone, no one, or just heirs?

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The subject of the thread is the "death tax", or inheritance tax. I suggest you start another thread if you want to change subjects.

 

[Smyth]

The subject of the thread is the "death tax", or inheritance tax. I suggest you start another thread if you want to change subjects.

I'm not changing subjects. I'm trying to reason with someone with a thick skull.

 

[carpro]

I'm not changing subjects. I'm trying to reason with someone with a thick skull.

Except in your mind, you have established no relationship between the capital gains tax and the inheritance tax. Provide some proof that there is one and then you might have something to discuss. so far all you've done is make unproven assertions and unfounded suppositions. IOW all you have is an opinion. It's not worth any more than anyone elses.

If you really want to go after the program that does the most damage to middle income inheritors, go after the Medicaid Estate Recovery Program (MERP) passed by a democrat controlled congess in 1993, instead of a capital gains program that currently has almost no effect on middle income Americans and their inheritances.