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Sarcastically prohet.......oh umm hmm........ You didn't read the next verses did you?

13This testimony is true. For this reason reprove them severely so that they may be sound in the faith, 14not paying attention to Jewish myths and commandments of men who turn away from the truth.

If it was non-religious how come it comes ups as religious pagan material that turns away from truth?

Oh no, brother. They would have stoned you if started making stuff up about Zues.


15To the pure, all things are pure; but to those who are defiled and unbelieving, nothing is pure, but both their mind and their conscience are defiled.

You look for evil and you find it everywhere.


16They profess to know God, but by their deeds they deny Him, being detestable and disobedient and worthless for any good deed.

1But as for you, speak the things which are fitting for sound doctrine. 2Older men are to be temperate, dignified, sensible, sound in faith, in love, in perseverance.


11For the grace of God has appeared, bringing salvation to all men,

See that would not work with your Calvinism.

Baptist = Calvinist right? I think the rule is flip a coin?

Muslim false idea of God > Calvinist False Idea of God.

I don't think DHK is Calvinist, I just got to pick on him

 

Paul preached the truth even if it meant preaching against their gods including Zeus. That didn't matter to him. The truth was in Christ, the only truth.
John 14:6 Jesus saith unto him, I am the way, the truth, and the life: no man cometh unto the Father, but by me.
--What did Christ say here? He is the only way to heaven! Correct?
Either what he said is true or he is the biggest liar, deceiver, and fake that ever lived.
You can't believe both. Which do you choose? Are his word true? Or is he a fake and an impostor?
If Christ is true and He is God, you have no argument left, and this discussion is ended.

Your problem is that you don't want to debate. You want to argue for argument's sake. You want to win your argument at any cost even if it means denying the truth. And that is what you do.
Do you realize that scholars know exactly who that "Cretian prophet" is, what he wrote, when he lived, etc. You are just guessing. You don't know a thing about him or the culture in which he lived. You simply want to win an argument and you do it out of your own ignorance.

Study a bit before you post your nonsense. Here is what MacArthur says on this verse:
Epimenides, the highly esteemed sixth century B.C. Greek poet and native of Crete, had characterized his own people as the dregs of Greek culture. Elsewhere, Paul also quoted pagan sayings (cf. Act_17:28; 1Co_15:33). This quote is directed at the false teachers' character.

I am not a Calvinist. You lose again.

No, this shows ignorance on your part. It shows you don't study. If you even took the time to look into the Cal/Arm forum you would see there are plenty of debates on the topic of Calvinism. Why? Because many Baptists are not Calvinists.

Is that how they determine Catholic Theology??

It doesn't matter to me what the Calvinist believe. It matters to me if he is saved, and that is not an implication that he isn't. Are you saved? Are you born again by the Spirit of God. It is important that you are born again. Jesus said it was important for he repeated three times in one chapter (John 3). Without the new birth one cannot enter into the kingdom of heaven.

 

"Is that how they determine Catholic Theology??"

That's how we chose the last apostle.
Like a roll of dice.

You don't hear Paul say "well since you guys are not worshipping Jesus yours is a false religion and all you are against God and hated by God"

He doesn't sound anything like you because he is Christian.

Paul took pagan scripture to affirm Christian God. I think you willfully lack the capacity of mercy on others to ever do anything remotely close to what Paul is doing there in scripture.

You would damn pagans, Samaritans, Jews, fill in the blank. And you lean towards damning as much as possible never towards mercy.

 

Catholics did not exist when the last apostle was chosen. Dice didn't exist either, as far as I know. The bible doesn't give any record of anyone being chosen by dice. You are confused.

When Paul came across those who were not Christian and stood in the way of Christianity he was very sharp with them. Look at this example:

Acts 13:9 Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him,
10 And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?
11 And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon thee, and thou shalt be blind, not seeing the sun for a season. And immediately there fell on him a mist and a darkness; and he went about seeking some to lead him by the hand.
--And you think I am blunt??

Paul did not use pagan scripture. You affirm that which you do not know.
What pagan scripture did Paul use? He quoted poetry and literature, not scriptures.

 

The scripture is:

They fashioned a tomb for you, holy and high one,
Cretans, always liars, evil beasts, idle bellies.
But you are not dead: you live and abide forever,
For in you we live and move and have our being.


That is a pagan prayer mentioned in poem.


The equivalent is like if you were to make poem and then mention "thy kingdom come, thy will be done on earth as it is in heaven"

Minos is doing his prayer to Zues.

-------
"Acts 13:9 Then Saul, (who also is called Paul,) filled with the Holy Ghost, set his eyes on him,
10 And said, O full of all subtilty and all mischief, thou child of the devil, thou enemy of all righteousness, wilt thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord?
11 And now, behold, the hand of the Lord is upon thee, and thou shalt be blind, not seeing the sun for a season. And immediately there fell on him a mist and a darkness; and he went about seeking some to lead him by the hand.
--And you think I am blunt??"



Thats in faith a pretender. "thou not cease to pervert the right ways of the Lord" <giving excuses to sin. , "enemy of all righteousness" <- guy who dams everythingIn the faith twisting.

"But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.

That's you brother^

People who actually call the instructions Jesus gives to do trash.


26“You blind Pharisee, first clean the inside of the cup and of the dish, so that the outside of it may become clean also.

No im not going to clean anything, just a "im saved" name tag fixes it.


Backwards with bible.

Matthew 10
22“You will be hated by all because of My name, but it is the one who has endured to the end who will be saved.

Backwards --> Beginning Saved who then endures.

James 2
24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Backwards--> man is justified by faith alone and not by works


matthew 6

14“For if you forgive others for their transgressions, your heavenly Father will also forgive you. 15“But if you do not forgive others, then your Father will not forgive your transgressions.

Backwards--> If father forgives you THEN you can forgive others.


1 John 4
20If someone says, “I love God,” and hates his brother, he is a liar; for the one who does not love his brother whom he has seen, cannot love God whom he has not seen.

Backwards---> you have to love the God you don't see, then you can brothers you do see.

 

Here is the passage in question.
Tit 1:10-13 For there are many unruly and vain talkers and deceivers, specially they of the circumcision: (11) Whose mouths must be stopped, who subvert whole houses, teaching things which they ought not, for filthy lucre's sake. (12) One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies. (13) This witness is true. Wherefore rebuke them sharply, that they may be sound in the faith;

It is good to have the whole context and the reference from where it is from. If this is Scripture why does Paul refer to their so-called prophet as:
unruly,
a vain talker,
a deceiver,
one whose mouth must be stopped,
one who subverts whole houses,
one who teaches things which they ought not,
And they do it for the purpose of making money which Paul calls "filthy lucre."
He calls them liars,
evil beasts,
slow bellies, (literally "idle gluttons")
--He says what he says about them is true and therefore they need to be sharply rebuked.

But you think Paul is quoting from their scripture. Would scripture say of its own prophets what Paul just described of their own prophets. If Paul said that of their prophets Paul would have been stoned but obviously he wasn't. What he said was true.

The word "prophet" can mean "poet." and so the man was.
The verse says:
Tit 1:12 One of themselves, even a prophet of their own, said, The Cretians are alway liars, evil beasts, slow bellies.

As John MacArthur says:
Epimenides, the highly esteemed sixth century B.C. Greek poet and native of Crete, had characterized his own people as the dregs of Greek culture. Elsewhere, Paul also quoted pagan sayings (cf. Act_17:28; 1Co_15:33). This quote is directed at the false teachers' character.
--The quote is recognized, and so is the author. He is a Greek poet. This is not scripture. That is only an assumption you make.

The Bible Knowledge Commentary:
To emphasize his point Paul quoted from Epimenides, a Cretan poet and philosopher from the sixth century b.c.
--Again: the name of the individual is given. He was Cretan poet and philosopher. No scripture is quoted from.

The Believer's Bible Commentary:
1:12 Here Paul reminds Titus of the kind of people he is dealing with. The unusually blunt and caustic description was true of the false teachers in particular and of the Cretans in general. He quotes Epimenides, one of their own poetic spokesmen who lived around 600 b.c., as calling them inveterate liars, evil beasts, lazy gluttons.
--Again: Epimenides is simply a poetic spokesman and that is all. No scripture is referenced.
Stop speaking from your own imagination. "Imaginations" cannot be used as a source of authority!

You attack the messenger. Why? I have told you the truth.
The truth is in John 14:6 which I have quoted to you.
Do you believe Christ is the way to heaven or not. He is either the only way to heaven or a fake and a liar. Which is it? Which choice have you made? Tell me.

You are saved on the basis of a name tag?? Where does the Bible teach that?
Only the blood of Jesus can wash away sins.
Only the Spirit of God can give you a new birth. Jesus said: "You must be born again." Have you been born again?

You have demonstrated your ability to use the Bible "backwards" as you say, or to twist the meanings and make things mean what they ought to mean. Peter talks of those individuals.

2Pe 3:15 And account that the longsuffering of our Lord is salvation; even as our beloved brother Paul also according to the wisdom given unto him hath written unto you;
2Pe 3:16 As also in all his epistles, speaking in them of these things; in which are some things hard to be understood, which they that are unlearned and unstable wrest, as they do also the other scriptures, unto their own destruction.

 

Glad to see you agree Sola Scriptura is false "imagination".


They fashioned a tomb for you, holy and high one,
Cretans, always liars, evil beasts, idle bellies.
But you are not dead: you live and abide forever,
For in you we live and move and have our being.

A pagan prayer is what it is. And Paul is quoting them. Have a great day!

 

Good for you.
A false conclusion based on a false premise.
Catholic doctrine is full of such examples.

 

What statement is false?

Name one doctrine since its "FULL". I want official actual teaching from catechism.

Not made up jack chick tract theology. The joke of Christianity.

 

I don't base my doctrine on the uninspired man-made statements made in the RCC Catechism.
My beliefs are solidly based on the statements which are written in God's holy inspired Word.
It is a book that you seem to continue to attack, which is sad.
There is no evidence in the Bible that Paul quoted from any Scripture, pagan or otherwise. To say so without giving proof is simply to demonstrate that you are making things up. You certainly won't prove the truth of Titus chapter one through the RCC Catechism. What a lark!!

 

I just showed you this is a pagan prayer.


They fashioned a tomb for you, holy and high one,
Cretans, always liars, evil beasts, idle bellies.
But you are not dead: you live and abide forever,
For in you we live and move and have our being.

For pagans....that is a holy prayer to Zeus.^

The first part of verse 28 comes from Cretica by Epimenides, and the second part of the verse from Hymn to Zeus.

It is a "HOLY" prayer to Zeus.


This is very religious material. Paul even says:
22So Paul stood in the midst of the Areopagus and said, “Men of Athens, I observe that you are very religious in all respects.


This doesn't mean Paul is for Pagan religion. He arrives looking at all the idols and stuff. And pagans never heard of Jesus Christ and resurrection. He points to the common ground of Pagans and Christians namely "for in Him we live and move and exist" and "for we also are his children".

 

Why is Paul pointing out the character of the Cretans as "always lying"?
He does so because they are sinners and among them are many false teachers that Titus must be aware of. He gives an example.
The Believer's Bible Commentary has well summarized it in this way:

To emphasize his point Paul quoted from Epimenides, a Cretan poet and philosopher from the sixth century b.c. who was widely believed to be a religious prophet. Though the quotation may originally have referred to a particular lie (viz., that Zeus was buried in Crete, which was especially offensive to those who believed Zeus was still alive), by Paul’s day the saying had become a proverb which merely emphasized the low reputations of Cretans generally. So little did others think of the Cretans that the verb krētizō was invented to mean “to lie.” Of course many noble Christians were in the congregations in Crete, but Paul was frontal in his assertion that the false teachers possessed these baser Cretan tendencies.

Paul demonstrates that these false teachers were liars, showing how this poet, claiming to be a prophet, didn't tell the truth about Zeus, and neither was he quoting from scripture.
You are misinformed.

Either way, the only inspired Scriptures and valid authority that we have is the Word of God, the Bible, that God has given us, not the pagans from Greece, nor the RCC catechism or their traditions.

 

Paul didn't quote them mockingly He said it is TRUE. You lose again.

28for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we also are His children.’

Paul didn't say the only authority was the bible. Why didn't he start with the bible instead of pagan scripture?

Why didn't he start off with hey guys.....do you accept Jesus as your personal Lord and Savior?

Your take would have made sense if Paul started the talk with yapping about how their poets are useless and their scripture is all wrong.

He doesn't sound ANYTHING like you.

I know you can't stand it.

Had you been there you would have been chewing Paul out his method is unheard of in your ranks.

 

Matthew 15

21Jesus went away from there, and withdrew into the district of Tyre and Sidon. 22And a Canaanite woman from that region came out and began to cry out, saying, “Have mercy on me, Lord, Son of David; my daughter is cruelly demon-possessed.” 23But He did not answer her a word. And His disciples came and implored Him, saying, “Send her away, because she keeps shouting at us.” 24But He answered and said, “I was sent only to the lost sheep of the house of Israel.” 25But she came and began to bow down before Him, saying, “Lord, help me!” 26And He answered and said, “It is not good to take the children’s bread and throw it to the dogs.” 27But she said, “Yes, Lord; but even the dogs feed on the crumbs which fall from their masters’ table.” 28Then Jesus said to her, “O woman, your faith is great; it shall be done for you as you wish.” And her daughter was healed at once.

This woman is a pagan. There is no conversion, she is of a different faith, Jesus says she is not a child of God basically a dog, I think this is a lesson for those who think they are child of God and deem themselves qualified. On top of that its an intercession request, for a pagan daughter demon possessed. And yet Jesus says her faith is GREAT.

 

This woman symbolizes Israel.

 

That is only your particular interpretation of what this particular Scripture means.

 

1. What Paul said, is NOW Scripture.
2. What Paul quoted from was NOT Scripture. (He quoted a poet/philosopher).
3. Paul never said he was quoting from any kind of scripture. Therefore both your statement and/or inferences are absolutely wrong.

Things do not become true just because you want them to be true.
Your argument is not true just because you say it is. You have no valid evidence.

 

How do you know there is no conversion, or do you not understand the passage.

When Jesus answered her rather abruptly and said it was not suitable to give the children's bread to dogs, the Cananite's answer was very meek and humble, and full of faith.
Walvoord in his Bible Knowledge Commentary puts it this way:

She was not wanting to deprive Israel of God’s blessings. She was simply asking that some of the blessing be extended to her in her need. In light of such great faith (cf. Mat_8:10), the kind of faith Jesus was looking for in Israel, He granted her request. Her daughter was healed… that very hour. This Gentile woman’s faith contrasted with Israel’s leaders who were rejecting Jesus.

Yes, she trusted Jesus as her Savior that hour. That is what is meant by "great faith"--faith not just for her daughter to be healed, but faith enough for her to be saved. All the Israelites did not have faith to trust him, but she did. And she wasn't an Israelite at all, but a Canaanite!!

 

Oh no, I believe she trusted. I believe her motivation is the GOOD WORK of getting her daughter healed. I believe she took initiative.

Where others would say Jesus would require to act first. In other words when do you see this woman get the holy spirit?

Jesus does not acknowledge a child of God, calls her a dog. Jesus refuses twice to point out the disqualified status she held.

Yet despite NOT being called by Christ, Not being qualified status elect or child of God, a DOG, A pagan, Has more faith then you do. Jesus calls her faith GREAT,

And she's not the primary beneficiary its the PAGAN DAUGHTER who has NO contact with Jesus Christ. So goes to show how much our request of mercy can pour out on others even those completely disqualified by your standards.

Some say well only believers get mercy.....The daughter got mercy. Only those who have the holy spirit get mercy......Jesus called her a dog.

What is the Lesson here? What drove her? Its the love a mother has for her daughter. If that wasn't around she wouldn't even been there.

 

It doesn't matter what drover her to Jesus. For some:
It is a fear of hell.
A love of a mother for her child.
A need for forgiveness of sin.
A burden of guilt.
Anguish of soul, etc. That doesn't matter. What matters is "faith."

All who were ever saved were saved by faith and faith alone. There is no example in the Bible of a person who was not saved by faith including this woman. In fact Jesus verifies this very clearly: "Great is thy faith," not "works." She was saved by faith, and because of faith her daughter was healed. There was no works involved here that Jesus recognized. He simply recognized her faith.