Roman Soteriology Exposed and Condemned

[The Biblicist]

The Biblicist is correct. My Mom converted from RC when she was 15. My grandmother ( her Mom, ) was also RD. After her death, I was curious, so I studied what they teach. I was heartbroken to find out about the false doctrines. If only I had known, I would have witnessed to her. The Pope's historic anathemas on all those saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone still stands. I want to learn to witness to them better". This is a very sad situation.

Hi priscilla,

Fair warning, there are two avid Roman Catholics on this forum who are out to proselyte (in spite of their denials). I am happy you can see through their errors. DHK is the moderator of this part of the forum and is an ex-Catholic and is much better qualified to help you in the more technical aspects than I am and I know he would be glad to assist you in any way to better understand and witness to them. Best wishes.

 

[Adonia]

Hi priscilla,

Fair warning, there are two avid Roman Catholics on this forum who are out to proselyte (in spite of their denials). I am happy you can see through their errors.

If answering your statements is proseltyzing, then so be it. What is an orthodox Christian supposed to do, leave your many claims and inaccuracies unanswered? Oops, I forgot - I am on your ignore list. Sorry!

 

[Adonia]

The Biblicist is correct. My Mom converted from RC when she was 15. My grandmother ( her Mom, ) was also RD. After her death, I was curious, so I studied what they teach. I was heartbroken to find out about the false doctrines. If only I had known, I would have witnessed to her. The Pope's historic anathemas on all those saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone still stands. I want to learn to witness to them better". This is a very sad situation.

Funny, but we think you have some false doctrines. And that is because of your own interpretation of the Holy Scriptures.

The fact is, we do not discount anything the Scriptures tell us. We believe in having faith - faith that Jesus did indeed die for us, we believe in doing good works because of that faith, and we believe in the authority of the Church so scriptural error can be avoided. We are orthodox Christians, believers in all that the Church which was instituted by Christ has faithfully relayed to us through all these many centuries.

You folks on the other hand follow what mere men have relayed to you, through various Christian sects that came about in the 1500's, the 1700's, the 1800's, and the 1900's. Yes, various people who thought they knew better than the established church.

So really, there is not much witnessing you can do to us as we are secure in the faith and know exactly where you are coming from.

 

[utilyan]

The Biblicist is correct. My Mom converted from RC when she was 15. My grandmother ( her Mom, ) was also RD. After her death, I was curious, so I studied what they teach. I was heartbroken to find out about the false doctrines. If only I had known, I would have witnessed to her. The Pope's historic anathemas on all those saved by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone still stands. I want to learn to witness to them better". This is a very sad situation.

Catholic can let Faith Alone fly depending on how you define "faith alone".

By grace alone, in faith in Christ's saving work and not because of any merit on our part, we are accepted by God and receive the Holy Spirit, who renews our hearts while equipping and calling us to good works.

If Faith Alone is devoid of Love, does have love or contain love. It does not fly.

James 2
24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.

Self explanatory^

1 Corinthians 13

2If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.

Self-explanatory*


So folks who have something against Love are real.

Despite scripture pointing to being superior.

13But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

James 2
19You believe that God is one. You do well; the demons also believe, and shudder.

Demons and Devils have faith in God. They believe God and have Faith in God.

Believe and Faith has no bearing on allegiance or loyalty.





James 2

26For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.


Body = Faith. Spirit = Works. You guys see that above right?


Go get a dead body and expect it to get up without a spirit.


Get a pile of dead bodies. Wow that's a lot of faith right there, That's the first thing we need is faith, cause of faith then we can do works.

Then wait for those dead bodies to get up and go.


any minute now..........lotta faith, lot of dead bodies........any minute they gonna get up.........


Tomorrow we gonna change the motto to "DEAD BODY ALONE"

 

[The Biblicist]

Catholic can let Faith Alone fly depending on how you define "faith alone".

So deceptive and pathetic! You know very well the doctrine of justification by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone is distinct from our view of progressive sanctification. You know very well that the Catholic doctrine mixes justification with sanctification. So your pious presumptive argument that you can let "faith alone fly depending on how you define "faith alone" is pure utter deception and perversion and you know it. The Council of Trent spelled it out clearly that even a fool can understand what they are condemning. They perfectly understood that the doctrine was not mixed with progressive sanctification and they knew perfectly well that those justified were also sanctified without mixing justification with sanctification. So this presumptuous pious hypocritcal abusive portrayal of what we believe is inexcusable.

To believe that we are JUSTIFIED by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone WITHOUT WORKS does not deny that those justified thus, are also SANCTIFIED by the indwelling regenerating Spirit whereby the fruit of the Spirit (Love, peace, joy, etc.) is the progressive consequences.

However, Rome perverted doctrine MIXES justification with sanctification so that it is no more "faith" that justifies but "faithfulness" that justifies and thus repudiates the complete satisfaction of all legal demands against the sinner by Christ's own personal faithfulness in our position before God.

Justification is not about what we are or we we do for God but about what Christ did, compeleted and finished in his own body during his life (righteousness) and death (remission of sins) as a completely free gift. Whereas, progressive sanctification is what Christ through the Spirit does IN and THROUGH us producing Christlikeness which is never completed until glorification.

So stop playing the hypocritical games for we know what Rome believes and Rome knows what we believe so stop perverting our position.

 

[The Biblicist]

The fact is, we do not discount anything the Scriptures tell us.

There is no cult in existence that repudiates what the Scriptures teach more than Rome.

We believe in having faith - faith that Jesus did indeed die for us,

You don't believe Jesus lived for you and therefore his death avails nothing for you.

we believe in doing good works because of that faith,

No you don't! You believe in good works IN ADDITION to faith in Christ is necessary for ultimate justification, thus you deny that Christ satisfied all that the righteous demands of the Law against you (sin is transgressing the law, and the law reveals the righteousness of God).

and we believe in the authority of the Church so scriptural error can be avoided.

We believe in the final authority of Scripture so that churches like yours can be avoided.

We are orthodox Christians,

No you are not! If orthodoxy is defined by Scriptures than what you are is non-orthodox and a non-Christian institution.

believers in all that the Church which was instituted by Christ has faithfully relayed to us through all these many centuries.

No you don't but you have persecuted the true Christians and true churches of Christ since 250 A.D. those whom your own historians call the "Anabaptists" and those whom your monkish historians have distorted their doctrine and perverted their views.

So really, there is not much witnessing you can do to us as we are secure in the faith and know exactly where you are coming from.

False again. You would not know the truth of the gospel of Jesus Christ if it stared you in the face. You pervert His gospel, have a 1000 year track record of killing gospel preachers and have not changed at all except you can't get away with killing Christians now. If anyone needs evangelization it is the regular Roman Catholic church goer. With regard to you and your friend, you are both proselyters hardened against the truth.

 

[The Biblicist]

If answering your statements is proseltyzing, then so be it. What is an orthodox Christian supposed to do, leave your many claims and inaccuracies unanswered? Oops, I forgot - I am on your ignore list. Sorry!

I have presented Romans 4 as an irrefutable condemnation of Roman Church sacramentalism and thus far you and your friend have no answers.

1. Abraham lived 430 years prior to Moses and the Law and therefore "works" in Romans 4:1-6 cannot possibly refer to the Law but rather to his own efforts.

2. Abraham was justified "without works" before God at the point of faith as his own person was "ungodly" and therefore God justifieth the "ungodly" that worketh not but believeth - Rome believes the very reverse that God only and ultimately justifies the godly.

3. Abraham was justified at the point of faith completely and fully (vv. 9-11 Aorist tense "had") and not by a progressive justification as Rome teaches.

4. Abraham was justified by "faith" NOT BY FAITHFULNESS as Rome teaches - vv. 16-21

5. Justification is not sanctification nor can it be mixed with sanctification as Rome teaches and yet all who are justified are sanctified manifested in good works.

 

[utilyan]

So deceptive and pathetic! You know very well the doctrine of justification by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone is distinct from our view of progressive sanctification. You know very well that the Catholic doctrine mixes justification with sanctification. So your pious presumptive argument that you can let "faith alone fly depending on how you define "faith alone" is pure utter deception and perversion and you know it. The Council of Trent spelled it out clearly that even a fool can understand what they are condemning. They perfectly understood that the doctrine was not mixed with progressive sanctification and they knew perfectly well that those justified were also sanctified without mixing justification with sanctification. So this presumptuous pious hypocritcal abusive portrayal of what we believe is inexcusable.

To believe that we are JUSTIFIED by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone WITHOUT WORKS does not deny that those justified thus, are also SANCTIFIED by the indwelling regenerating Spirit whereby the fruit of the Spirit (Love, peace, joy, etc.) is the progressive consequences.

However, Rome perverted doctrine MIXES justification with sanctification so that it is no more "faith" that justifies but "faithfulness" that justifies and thus repudiates the complete satisfaction of all legal demands against the sinner by Christ's own personal faithfulness in our position before God.

Justification is not about what we are or we we do for God but about what Christ did, compeleted and finished in his own body during his life (righteousness) and death (remission of sins) as a completely free gift. Whereas, progressive sanctification is what Christ through the Spirit does IN and THROUGH us producing Christlikeness which is never completed until glorification.

So stop playing the hypocritical games for we know what Rome believes and Rome knows what we believe so stop perverting our position.

I was very clear.

If Faith Alone is devoid of Love, does have love or contain love. It does not fly.

Faith is not the determinant factor regarding loyalty or allegiance

Faith an trust are the same thing, Believe me the devil TRUSTS and has PERFECT Faith in God. And still hates him.

I dare you to say amen to this scripture. There is no way you can twist this.


James 2
26For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

Body is FAITH.
Spirit is WORKS.


Now you go ahead to your cemetery and start pilling them up in front of your church.

And tell yourself......OH yeah we have a lot of faith here. Look at all that faith.

Any minute now we are going to have a regenerating fruits of the spirit.


All those dead bodies are going to do 2 things.......Jack and squat.


Oh he could have worded it :
For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also WORKS without FAITH is dead.

YOU would have loved that!!!^^^ In fact you preach that all the time.
BACKWARDS




Think about it, "DEAD BODY ALONE" That's what you teach.

It has NO SPIRIT. I can cleanly call your doctrine the DEAD BODY ALONE doctrine.

The only way it can fly......It requires THE GOOD WORK of Love.

Jesus Christ said Love God and Love Neighbor.


How many times Jesus said faith alone? NEVER!

How may times the bible say Faith Alone? ONCE to tell you are WRONG.

James 2

24You see that a man is justified by works and not by faith alone.


You are not a bible believer. PERIOD.

DEAD BODY ALONE.

 

[utilyan]

Hi priscilla,

Fair warning, there are two avid Roman Catholics on this forum who are out to proselyte (in spite of their denials). I am happy you can see through their errors. DHK is the moderator of this part of the forum and is an ex-Catholic and is much better qualified to help you in the more technical aspects than I am and I know he would be glad to assist you in any way to better understand and witness to them. Best wishes.

I'm flattered..........

We Catholics believe you can be saved being a atheist, the team shirt you were just doesn't matter.

Its funny we would say the things you DO can damn a person.

while others say "faith alone" can't DO right, nor can't DO wrong.

Well then what is wrong with the DO of being catholic?

Why it so pivotal that I do the "GOOD WORK" of leaving it?

 

[The Biblicist]

I was very clear.

If Faith Alone is devoid of Love, does have love or contain love. It does not fly.

Faith alone justifies us without works but faith is not alone and what accompanies it has nothing to do with justification but with sanctification and that is where it "worketh" by love.

Faith is not the determinant factor regarding loyalty or allegiance

Have you ever read Hebrews 11. After verse 4 we read the repetitive "BY faith" showing that it is the determining factor that always proceeds true obedience.

Faith an trust are the same thing, Believe me the devil TRUSTS and has PERFECT Faith in God. And still hates him.

Not true! They believe "in God" in the sense of acknowledging his existence and power but they do not "trust" in him FOR anything. Do you know the difference between "vain faith" versus "dead faith" or historical faith??? guess not or would not make such a foolish statement about Satan. He believes IN God's existence, power and presence, but they do not trust in God FOR anything.

I dare you to say amen to this scripture. There is no way you can twist this.


James 2
26For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

Body is FAITH.
Spirit is WORKS.
.

More ignorance exhibited! We do not teach faith is alone, but faith produces works as Hebrews 11 repetively says "by faith" so and so DID such and such. Faith "worketh" by love and produces works. However, Justification is by faith alone without works but not without a faith that does not produce works.

This is all that James is saying. Justification by faith alone is never a "dead" faith that is alone, but it is not the consequences of faith (works) that justifies us. We are justified by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone WITHOUT WORKS but not by a faith that is without works. Let me break it down into bite sizes peices so you can understand what I am saying. It is faith alone in Christ alone that justifies us WITHOUT THE CONSEQUENCES, without the manifest fruits OF FAITH which is works produced in our life. This is James point, a person may SAY he has faith, but a person can say anything. Those who are really justified by faith alone in Christ alone without works are in possession of that faith which will manifest itself in works. Works are the consequences of faith but are not faith, and are not included in what justifies us before God. However, the faith that justifies us before God without works is a faith that produces works. Hence, those truly justified by faith without works are made manifest by the same faith which will produce works.

So yes, I can say Amen to James 2:26 because it teaches precisely what we believe.

 

[utilyan]

Faith alone justifies us without works but faith is not alone and what accompanies it has nothing to do with justification but with sanctification and that is where it "worketh" by love.

Have you ever read Hebrews 11. After verse 4 we read the repetitive "BY faith" showing that it is the determining factor that always proceeds true obedience.

Not true! They believe "in God" in the sense of acknowledging his existence and power but they do not "trust" in him FOR anything. Do you know the difference between "vain faith" versus "dead faith" or historical faith??? guess not or would not make such a foolish statement about Satan. He believes IN God's existence, power and presence, but they do not trust in God FOR anything.





More ignorance exhibited! We do not teach faith is alone, but faith produces works as Hebrews 11 repetively says "by faith" so and so DID such and such. Faith "worketh" by love and produces works. However, Justification is by faith alone without works but not without a faith that does not produce works.

This is all that James is saying. Justification by faith alone is never a "dead" faith that is alone, but it is not the consequences of faith (works) that justifies us. We are justified by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone WITHOUT WORKS but not by a faith that is without works. Let me break it down into bite sizes peices so you can understand what I am saying. It is faith alone in Christ alone that justifies us WITHOUT THE CONSEQUENCES, without the manifest fruits OF FAITH which is works produced in our life. This is James point, a person may SAY he has faith, but a person can say anything. Those who are really justified by faith alone in Christ alone without works are in possession of that faith which will manifest itself in works. Works are the consequences of faith but are not faith, and are not included in what justifies us before God. However, the faith that justifies us before God without works is a faith that produces works. Hence, those truly justified by faith without works are made manifest by the same faith which will produce works.

So yes, I can say Amen to James 2:26 because it teaches precisely what we believe.

Holy Scripture, the bible is the word of God. I'm going to show you scripture vs. What it does not say. You can keep one and deny the other.

Because if scripture were to say what you want it to say, I would agree with you 100%.

FORTUNATELY it does not.

Concentrate, and carefully compare what scripture says and what it does not say.

Tell me why they are both different.

I want you to admit , you agree with what it does not say.



Faith dependent on Love VS. Love dependent on Faith.

Galatians 5

6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.

What you want it to say:

6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but LOVE working through FAITH.


Notice its not Faith working through Evil is not enough. Nor faith working with nothing else.

It is THROUGH LOVE.


1 Corinthians 13

2If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all faith, so as to remove mountains, but do not have love, I am nothing.

What it does not say:

2If I have the gift of prophecy, and know all mysteries and all knowledge; and if I have all LOVE, so as to remove mountains, but do not have FAITH, I am nothing.


You can have complete faith, Faith that MOVES MOUNTAINS. It is useless. meaningless, NOTHING.



1 Corinthians 13

13But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is love.

What it does not say:

13But now faith, hope, love, abide these three; but the greatest of these is FAITH.


That's the bottom line. If the foundation was dependent on FAITH, Then clearly Faith would be the greatest. Faith is not the greatest.

I want you to read over "what it doesn't say" and ask yourself, Do you think you would have a harder time or easier time convincing me I was wrong if it said what it doesn't say rather then what it really says?

James 2
26For just as the body without the spirit is dead, so also faith without works is dead.

Dead bodies do exist. And here you are shown a Faith without a spirit. ALONE it is a dead body.


Body = Faith

Spirit = Works

I want you to face "the dead body alone" theology
.
Go ahead and pile your dead in front of the church. A lot of DEAD BODIES = a lot of FAITH.

If faith was the seed to the other gifts then WORKS the SPIRIT will show up on those dead bodies.

 

[The Biblicist]

Holy Scripture, the bible is the word of God. I'm going to show you scripture vs. What it does not say. You can keep one and deny the other.

Because if scripture were to say what you want it to say, I would agree with you 100%.

FORTUNATELY it does not.

Concentrate, and carefully compare what scripture says and what it does not say.

Tell me why they are both different.

I want you to admit , you agree with what it does not say.



Faith dependent on Love VS. Love dependent on Faith.

Galatians 5

6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but faith working through love.

What you want it to say:

6For in Christ Jesus neither circumcision nor uncircumcision means anything, but LOVE working through FAITH.

Why should I want to read any other way than it does??? Love is the fruit of the Spirit and the regenerative work of the Spirit is "unto good works" (Eph. 2:10). But the point is that it does not say we are justified through love does it??? No! Neither does it say we are justified through works. No! What is says is that we are justified by faith or "saved through faith" (Eph. 2:8).

Rome confuses justification with sanctification. Sanctification has its roots in regeneration and the new inner man from which the fruit of the Spirit is worked out into the life of the believer. However, justification has its roots in the life and death of Christ in our behalf as a completed finished work that can only be received by faith BECAUSE we cannot ADD to something finished an perfect. Faith can only receive it as a FREE GIFT because faith cannot improve it. Faith worketh through love which is the fruit of the Spirit and that refers to sanctification not justification.

Justification deals with our legal position before God with regard to the Law of God and its standard of righteousness, which is the righteousness of God, and penalty for coming short of the "glory of God" or his holiness/righteousness. In other words God's law demands you must be as good as God to avoid its penalty and obtain its reward. No fallen human can achieve either in his own person and by his own works. No regenerate man can achieve either through the power of the Spirit in your own person and your own works.

So, if Christ does not satisfy it IN YOUR PLACE you are without hope because with or without God inside of you, you will NEVER attain that standard in this life and you have only this life to find some way to achieve as being as good as God. God has never sinned, and never needed forgiveness and so forgiven persons have already failed to achieve that standard. Your life cannot improve the life of Christ and your works cannot improve his finished works. If sanctification is your basis for final justification you will go straight to hell because you will never in this life achieve personal perfection in your own person. Therefore, justification can only be FREELY BY GRACE through faith in the "good news" that Christ has obtained absolute sinless perfection in the eyes of the law FOR SINNERS and paid in full the complete penalty of the Law and nothing done by you or by the Spirit through you can equal that or obtain that by YOUR LIFE and so it can only be obtained as a FREE GIFT received by faith.

In contrast, sanctification is a progressive work of the Holy Spirit within the regenerate person through which the Spirit of God gradually conforms the believer to the image of Christ, but which is never completed until glorification in the resurrection. Here is where faith worketh through love as love for God's free gracious justification is the true motivator to serve Him. We love him because he first loved us. To serve him in order to be justified is an open repudiation of the finished work of Jesus Christ and rejection of the gift of justification through faith. That is what you are guilty of, and that is what Rome is guilty of. You are attempting to ADD works performed in and through your own body to what Christ has already finished in His own body in behalf of all who simply receive it by faith. That is the "good news" while what you believe and are doing is TERRIBLE NEWS because it simply cannot be done! As Paul says you are frustrating the grace of God.

Rome merges justification with sanctification whereas Paul separates them without denying their co-existence in the life of all true believers.

So again, I have no problems with James or Paul but you certainly do! Paul says justification is "without works" but he did not say that faith was without works did he? James says true faith that justifies is not without works and thus says the same as Paul. Neither teach justification by works but rather teach justification without works through faith that will produce works, but the works produced HAVE NOTHING TO DO with justification but WHOLLY to do with SANCTIFICATION. So faith receives Christ's finished works as an empty hand receives a gift but then REACTS or RESPONDS (here is where sanctification begins) through love because of that free gift. So we don't work in order to obtain justification but faith worketh through love because we have been justified freely by his grace.

In contrast, you are working in order to be justified and at no point in your Catholic life will you ever really know you will ever be justified and the sad truth is that no fallen human being will ever be justified by working for it. Paul's doctrine of justification is a finished action at the point of faith, but your Catholic doctrine of justification is never finished in this life and you really don't know for sure it will ever be finished even in your imaginary purgatory. That is truly sad, especially, when justification by faith is "FREELY BY GRACE through faith in Christ already having FINISHED all that will ever be necessary for time and eternity.

 

[utilyan]

Why should I want to read any other way than it does??? Love is the fruit of the Spirit and the regenerative work of the Spirit is "unto good works" (Eph. 2:10). But the point is that it does not say we are justified through love does it??? No! Neither does it say we are justified through works. No! What is says is that we are justified by faith or "saved through faith" (Eph. 2:8).

Rome confuses justification with sanctification. Sanctification has its roots in regeneration and the new inner man from which the fruit of the Spirit is worked out into the life of the believer. However, justification has its roots in the life and death of Christ in our behalf as a completed finished work that can only be received by faith BECAUSE we cannot ADD to something finished an perfect. Faith can only receive it as a FREE GIFT because faith cannot improve it. Faith worketh through love which is the fruit of the Spirit and that refers to sanctification not justification.

Justification deals with our legal position before God with regard to the Law of God and its standard of righteousness, which is the righteousness of God, and penalty for coming short of the "glory of God" or his holiness/righteousness. In other words God's law demands you must be as good as God to avoid its penalty and obtain its reward. No fallen human can achieve either in his own person and by his own works. No regenerate man can achieve either through the power of the Spirit in your own person and your own works.

So, if Christ does not satisfy it IN YOUR PLACE you are without hope because with or without God inside of you, you will NEVER attain that standard in this life and you have only this life to find some way to achieve as being as good as God. God has never sinned, and never needed forgiveness and so forgiven persons have already failed to achieve that standard. Your life cannot improve the life of Christ and your works cannot improve his finished works. If sanctification is your basis for final justification you will go straight to hell because you will never in this life achieve personal perfection in your own person. Therefore, justification can only be FREELY BY GRACE through faith in the "good news" that Christ has obtained absolute sinless perfection in the eyes of the law FOR SINNERS and paid in full the complete penalty of the Law and nothing done by you or by the Spirit through you can equal that or obtain that by YOUR LIFE and so it can only be obtained as a FREE GIFT received by faith.

In contrast, sanctification is a progressive work of the Holy Spirit within the regenerate person through which the Spirit of God gradually conforms the believer to the image of Christ, but which is never completed until glorification in the resurrection. Here is where faith worketh through love as love for God's free gracious justification is the true motivator to serve Him. We love him because he first loved us. To serve him in order to be justified is an open repudiation of the finished work of Jesus Christ and rejection of the gift of justification through faith. That is what you are guilty of, and that is what Rome is guilty of. You are attempting to ADD works performed in and through your own body to what Christ has already finished in His own body in behalf of all who simply receive it by faith. That is the "good news" while what you believe and are doing is TERRIBLE NEWS because it simply cannot be done! As Paul says you are frustrating the grace of God.

Rome merges justification with sanctification whereas Paul separates them without denying their co-existence in the life of all true believers.

So again, I have no problems with James or Paul but you certainly do! Paul says justification is "without works" but he did not say that faith was without works did he? James says true faith that justifies is not without works and thus says the same as Paul. Neither teach justification by works but rather teach justification without works through faith that will produce works, but the works produced HAVE NOTHING TO DO with justification but WHOLLY to do with SANCTIFICATION. So faith receives Christ's finished works as an empty hand receives a gift but then REACTS or RESPONDS (here is where sanctification begins) through love because of that free gift. So we don't work in order to obtain justification but faith worketh through love because we have been justified freely by his grace.

In contrast, you are working in order to be justified and at no point in your Catholic life will you ever really know you will ever be justified and the sad truth is that no fallen human being will ever be justified by working for it. Paul's doctrine of justification is a finished action at the point of faith, but your Catholic doctrine of justification is never finished in this life and you really don't know for sure it will ever be finished even in your imaginary purgatory. That is truly sad, especially, when justification by faith is "FREELY BY GRACE through faith in Christ already having FINISHED all that will ever be necessary for time and eternity.

I directed you to scripture. Tell me the difference between what it says and doesn't say.


James 2

14What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?

Sure it can.


20But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

NOPE.

 

[The Biblicist]

I directed you to scripture. Tell me the difference between what it says and doesn't say.


James 2

14What use is it, my brethren, if someone says he has faith but he has no works? Can that faith save him?

Sure it can.


20But are you willing to recognize, you foolish fellow, that faith without works is useless?

NOPE.

You still don't understand?!?!? Any faith that is not evidenced by good works is not the faith that justifies but a "dead" faith. So no, "that" kind of faith saves no one as "that" kind faith is mere intellectual assent which demons have. "That" is not the faith created by God in his elect. Faith in justification simply receives, having received the free gift of justification, that same faith reacts through love for what has been received freely by grace. Can't say it any simpler! Faith is the hinge on which Justification and sanctification are connected and yet they are distinct actions.The first (justification) is a completed action at the point of faith in the gospel. The second is a continuing progressive action that is never completed until glorification in the resurrection. The first obtains approval before God for entrance into heaven. The second obtains present blessings, spiritual growth and future rewards in heaven. Faith receives God's provision in Christ as promised in the Gospel to all who believe - that is justification, a finished completed action at the point of faith in the gospel, then that same faith that has already received Christ worketh through love as a REACTION to that free gift of justification. It is not another faith, but the same faith.

Paul is defining the doctrine of justifcation without works by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone because the works of Christ completely satisfy all legal requirements against the elect - this obtains entrance into heaven secured by Christ's righteousness and sin payment IN OUR STEAD - this is what faith receives when beleiving the gospel. That is why the gospel means "good news" but what you are teaching is "bad news" because you are attempting to include SELF in what Christ finished FOR YOU. Your gospel is "jesus and me" whereas the true gospel is Jesus alone FOR you.

James is defining faith of those who ALREADY PROFESS to have been justified - "though a man may SAY". James is saying that the faith that justifies is the same faith that reacts through love in obedience to God's commandments. James is simply saying that any person who has been justified by faith will also be obedient by faith as sanctification is inseparably connected with justification but is not justification.

To answer your question, what is the difference between faith working through love versus love working through faith is merely the difference which one is instrumental means for the other. In the former love is the instrumental means through which faith works, in the latter faith is the instrumental means through which love works. It seems you actually believe the latter whereas I believe the former. I believe love is the instrumental means through which faith works, meaning our faith is expressed through love and love is the keeping of God's commandments. However, this is speaking of sanctification not justification as faith does not work at all in justification but is the simple means of receiving rather than giving.

 

[utilyan]

You still don't understand?!?!? Any faith that is not evidenced by good works is not the faith that justifies but a "dead" faith. So no, "that" kind of faith saves no one as "that" kind faith is mere intellectual assent which demons have. "That" is not the faith created by God in his elect. Faith in justification simply receives, having received the free gift of justification, that same faith reacts through love for what has been received freely by grace. Can't say it any simpler! Faith is the hinge on which Justification and sanctification are connected and yet they are distinct actions.The first (justification) is a completed action at the point of faith in the gospel. The second is a continuing progressive action that is never completed until glorification in the resurrection. The first obtains approval before God for entrance into heaven. The second obtains present blessings, spiritual growth and future rewards in heaven. Faith receives God's provision in Christ as promised in the Gospel to all who believe - that is justification, a finished completed action at the point of faith in the gospel, then that same faith that has already received Christ worketh through love as a REACTION to that free gift of justification. It is not another faith, but the same faith.

Paul is defining the doctrine of justifcation without works by grace alone through faith alone in Christ alone because the works of Christ completely satisfy all legal requirements against the elect - this obtains entrance into heaven secured by Christ's righteousness and sin payment IN OUR STEAD - this is what faith receives when beleiving the gospel. That is why the gospel means "good news" but what you are teaching is "bad news" because you are attempting to include SELF in what Christ finished FOR YOU. Your gospel is "jesus and me" whereas the true gospel is Jesus alone FOR you.

James is defining faith of those who ALREADY PROFESS to have been justified - "though a man may SAY". James is saying that the faith that justifies is the same faith that reacts through love in obedience to God's commandments. James is simply saying that any person who has been justified by faith will also be obedient by faith as sanctification is inseparably connected with justification but is not justification.

To answer your question, what is the difference between faith working through love versus love working through faith is merely the difference which one is instrumental means for the other. In the former love is the instrumental means through which faith works, in the latter faith is the instrumental means through which love works. It seems you actually believe the latter whereas I believe the former. I believe love is the instrumental means through which faith works, meaning our faith is expressed through love and love is the keeping of God's commandments. However, this is speaking of sanctification not justification as faith does not work at all in justification but is the simple means of receiving rather than giving.

When James talks about the foolish fellow I know exactly who he is talking about, I believe he is addressing people who believe in FAITH ALONE.

Is it really beyond your mind why we would believe what the bible actually says?

You don't address any scripture. You begin with your theocratic theory "faith alone".

MEANING first with no scriptural explanation.

You have no ORDER.

You take one line to force primacy even over the words of Jesus Christ himself.

A one-legged roman table.

And even the table admonishes the idea:

Romans 13
10Love does no wrong to a neighbor; therefore love is the fulfillment of the law.

^Notice there is no



Most people start the bible from Genesis rather then Romans.

And if we doing new testament in the order we receive scripture. I think I heard Galatians is the oldest work.

I don't see any frame work of logic.

Imagine you never read the new testament. By the time you finish Matthew 7 you thinking to yourself .........ahhhhh Faith ALONE, said no one ever.


1 john 3

11For this is the message which you have heard from the beginning, that we should love one another;

 

[The Biblicist]

When James talks about the foolish fellow I know exactly who he is talking about, I believe he is addressing people who believe in FAITH ALONE.

Is it really beyond your mind why we would believe what the bible actually says?

You don't address any scripture.

Either you don't read very well or don't read my post at all. What is it that you don't understand about justification by faith without works but not justification by faith that does not work?????? Is that concept too difficult for you to grasp? Paul is talking about the former while James is talking about the latter!

When James says "that" faith, he is not speaking about the doctrine of justification by faith without works, but about PROFESSING the doctrine of justification by faith that is not manifested by good works. "That" faith does not save because "that" faith is not the kind of faith that characterizes the true doctrine of justification by faith without works. James is looking at the person who has already made a profession of justification by faith without works and asking if it is a working faith or a faith that manifests itself in works. Is this too difficult for you to grasp?

He is not contradicting Paul's clear doctrine of justification without works in Romans 3-5 but is rather confirming Paul's doctrine that a person who is justified by faith without works is a person who is also regenerated and thus produces works that manifest such a faith in Romans 6-8.

Your problem is that you are pitting scripture against scripture in order to justify Romans repudiation of Pauline doctrine of justification as you and Rome MIX justification with sanctification and neither Paul or James joins you in that confusion.

If you are just going to ignore what I have said and keep on making the lame charge that I am not dealing with these texts then I will just ignore these pitiful responses of yours.

 

[The Biblicist]

I guess I have to break this down into bite size pieces and spell it out in order for our Catholic friends to be able to grasp my responses to James.

A. The PROFESSION of faith without practical evidences - vv. 14-18

14 ¶ What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

James is addressing the kind of person who PROFESSES faith - "though a man say.....a man may say." He illustrates this profession and characterizes it as one wholly void of any practical evidences (vv. 15-16).

So he is not addressing the Pauline doctrine of justification by faith without works which occurs and is completed AT THE POINT of faith in the Gospel, but he is addressing the profession of a person in his post-justification state who makes the claim that he has present possession of faith and yet there is absolutely no visible evidence for his claim. It is "That" kind of professed faith that cannot save, because justification is by faith without works but it is not a faith that remains stagnant, but worketh through love. So we are saved by faith alone but not faith which is alone - can you savvy that???? That is James point and his only point.

In verses 19-20 he is now speaking about HISTORICAL faith as a profession. Devils do not "trust" in God but they do "believe" God exists and thus, believe "in God" in the sense of historical truth or mere mental assent. However, historical faith justifies no one, saves no one, and provides no evidence that can satisfy anyone that such a person is a child of God - historical faith involves only THE MIND whereas justifying faith is created by God IN THE HEART (2 Cor. 4:6).

Then in verses 21 James illustrates this point by using Rahab and Abraham and how their justification by faith without works was visibly manifested by works proving that faith created by God in the heart that justifies us without works, remains in the heart but is manifested outside of the heart not merely by profession but by evidential works.

In the case of Rahab, the proof that she was already justified by faith without works is that when the spys needed help that faith evidenced itself by hiding them and then hanging a red cord out her window.

In the case of Abraham, who had already been justified by faith without works at the point of faith in the gospel (Gal. 3:8 with Gen. 15:1-3) that faith became evidenced in his obedience serveral years later in his offering up of his only Son trusting God that he would raise him from the dead.

Therefore, the conclusive illustration of the body and spirit is about the presence of faith in one who has already been justified by faith without works at the point of faith in the gospel. That faith is like the body and works are like the spirit. Just as the body without the spirit is dead, so is faith without works is also a "dead" faith. The faith that justifies us before God without works is evidenced AFTERWARDS not by mere profession but by evidential works. This does not mean that the evidential works that occur AFTER justification by faith without works are inclusive of justification but rather are merely the evidential consequences. Just as Abraham was justified by faith without works in Genesis 15 many years before Genesis 22, what happened in Genesis 22 was not his justification before God by faith, but was the continuing manifest evidences of that post-justification condition between Genesis 15 and Genesis 22.

 

[Yeshua1]

Wow your reading the catechism?

I'm surprised you are going to argue against something we actually teach rather then something made up.

I am in shock right now. Thank You Lord Jesus Christ, for cutting me a easy break.


You guys have a bad habit of using ONLY, ALONE, SOLA........absolutes.
So don't get this idea that ONLY baptism justifies.

Thief on the Cross for example, I doubt he was baptized.



" Rome has acknowledged that circumcision under the old is equivalent to baptism under the New and so to test the Catholic view one merely can replace the term "circumcision" with "baptism" and you would have the consequences of Rome's view."

What is the "Circumcision of Christ"?

Colossians 2:11,12
and in Him you were also circumcised with a circumcision made without hands, in the removal of the body of the flesh by the circumcision of Christ; having been buried with Him in baptism

NEXT!


Baptism and Justification.


Romans 6
3Do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus were baptized into his death?

4We were buried therefore with him by baptism into death, in order that, just as Christ was raised from the dead by the glory of the Father, we too might walk in newness of life.

5For if we have been united with him in a death like his, we shall certainly be united with him in a resurrection like his.


Are you baptized? DO YOU NOT KNOW!? DO YOU NOT KNOW!? DO YOU NOT KNOW!?

That you are baptized into his death? That you are UNITED with Jesus Christ in death at the cross, and that YOU WILL CERTAINTLY be united with him in a resurrection like his?

Good News huh?

Just don't read verse 15 if your into the OSAS stuff.


"They may attack the person who presents this."

I will attack in next post.

The water baptism mentioned there is NOT how you see it being though, as the scripturers make clear that it shows in an outward fashion the inward work already done by God to save a sinner...

Believers baptism...

The water cannot wash away any sins, only the blood of Jesus does that!

 

[utilyan]

The water baptism mentioned there is NOT how you see it being though, as the scripturers make clear that it shows in an outward fashion the inward work already done by God to save a sinner...

Believers baptism...

The water cannot wash away any sins, only the blood of Jesus does that!

Acts 22
16‘Now why do you delay? Get up and be baptized, and wash away your sins, calling on His name.’

Its like you hit every branch on the way down.

 

[utilyan]

I guess I have to break this down into bite size pieces and spell it out in order for our Catholic friends to be able to grasp my responses to James.

A. The PROFESSION of faith without practical evidences - vv. 14-18

14 ¶ What doth it profit, my brethren, though a man say he hath faith, and have not works? can faith save him?
15 If a brother or sister be naked, and destitute of daily food,
16 And one of you say unto them, Depart in peace, be ye warmed and filled; notwithstanding ye give them not those things which are needful to the body; what doth it profit?
17 Even so faith, if it hath not works, is dead, being alone.
18 Yea, a man may say, Thou hast faith, and I have works: shew me thy faith without thy works, and I will shew thee my faith by my works.
19 Thou believest that there is one God; thou doest well: the devils also believe, and tremble.
20 But wilt thou know, O vain man, that faith without works is dead?

James is addressing the kind of person who PROFESSES faith - "though a man say.....a man may say." He illustrates this profession and characterizes it as one wholly void of any practical evidences (vv. 15-16).

So he is not addressing the Pauline doctrine of justification by faith without works which occurs and is completed AT THE POINT of faith in the Gospel, but he is addressing the profession of a person in his post-justification state who makes the claim that he has present possession of faith and yet there is absolutely no visible evidence for his claim. It is "That" kind of professed faith that cannot save, because justification is by faith without works but it is not a faith that remains stagnant, but worketh through love. So we are saved by faith alone but not faith which is alone - can you savvy that???? That is James point and his only point.

In verses 19-20 he is now speaking about HISTORICAL faith as a profession. Devils do not "trust" in God but they do "believe" God exists and thus, believe "in God" in the sense of historical truth or mere mental assent. However, historical faith justifies no one, saves no one, and provides no evidence that can satisfy anyone that such a person is a child of God - historical faith involves only THE MIND whereas justifying faith is created by God IN THE HEART (2 Cor. 4:6).

Then in verses 21 James illustrates this point by using Rahab and Abraham and how their justification by faith without works was visibly manifested by works proving that faith created by God in the heart that justifies us without works, remains in the heart but is manifested outside of the heart not merely by profession but by evidential works.

In the case of Rahab, the proof that she was already justified by faith without works is that when the spys needed help that faith evidenced itself by hiding them and then hanging a red cord out her window.

In the case of Abraham, who had already been justified by faith without works at the point of faith in the gospel (Gal. 3:8 with Gen. 15:1-3) that faith became evidenced in his obedience serveral years later in his offering up of his only Son trusting God that he would raise him from the dead.

Therefore, the conclusive illustration of the body and spirit is about the presence of faith in one who has already been justified by faith without works at the point of faith in the gospel. That faith is like the body and works are like the spirit. Just as the body without the spirit is dead, so is faith without works is also a "dead" faith. The faith that justifies us before God without works is evidenced AFTERWARDS not by mere profession but by evidential works. This does not mean that the evidential works that occur AFTER justification by faith without works are inclusive of justification but rather are merely the evidential consequences. Just as Abraham was justified by faith without works in Genesis 15 many years before Genesis 22, what happened in Genesis 22 was not his justification before God by faith, but was the continuing manifest evidences of that post-justification condition between Genesis 15 and Genesis 22.

Romans is not page 1 is my point.

I don't care if it has electrolytes.



You have NEVER READ the new testament.

Imagine you never read the new testament. By the time you finish Matthew 7 you thinking to yourself .........ahhhhh Faith ALONE, said no one ever.

Your ARRIVAL to Romans having primacy over the entire bible is absurd. Even more absurd since its a mistranslation of this one verse.

You start from romans and then claim we got over 150 verses mistranslated.

We start with 150 versed and claim you got ONE wrong.

And you literally believe BACKWARDS of scripture.


Martin Luther Invented Faith Alone.

"Faith Alone" is so WRONG that Martin Luther wanted to get rid of the book of James to cover up his blunder.

Why would he want to get rid of JAMES? Its obvious to anyone who remotely has a brain. Because it flat out says FAITH ALONE is WRONG.