Do you realize:
= that some Greek words can have up to
40 different meanings depending on the context?
= that "that" can refer to Jesus' coming (not Him)?
= that I am in need of mucho patience?
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
What does it take for the Holy Spirit to live inside a person?
- Thread starter Samuels
- Start date
= that some Greek words can have up to
40 different meanings depending on the context?
= that "that" can refer to Jesus' coming (not Him)?
= that I am in need of mucho patience?
So, the true believer who loves Jesus enough to obey Him
is displaying false pride and also is believing that he is responsible for his own salvation.
Thanks for pointing that out to us!
No I don't believe that is what he said.
So show us what the meaning is. Since Paul's point is prophecy and knowledge to write scripture was given to the early church fathers and no new prophecy has been added since the completion of the canon then the "that" seems to be connected to that otherwise we should still have scripture being written and it isn't. Otherwise we still know in part and I believe we can understand and do have full knowledge.
True believers do not suppose that they are responsible for their own salvation, but they certainly understand that they need to obey the Lord Jesus Christ (eg. Colossians 3:1-8; Titus 2:11-12). However they are not foolish and prideful enough to suppose that they can do that in their own strength (eg. Romans 16:20), and they give all praise for their perseverance to God (John 10:27-29; 1 Corinthians 1:8; Philippians 1:6; 2 Timothy 2:19; 1 John 2:19).
You're welcome.
I believe that O.S.A.S. is a misnomer, and with the Puritans believe rather in the Perseverance of the Saints. This is from the Baptist 1689 London Confession, XVII: 2-3:
This perseverance of the saints does not depend on them- that is, on their own free will. It rests upon the immutability of the decree of election [Romans 8:30; 9:11-16], which flows from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father. It also rests upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ and upon the union which true saints have with Him [Romans 5:9-10; John 14:19].
- It rests upon the oath of God [Hebrews 6:17-18], and upon the abiding of His Spirit.
- It depends upon the seed of God being within them [1 John 3:9] and upon the very nature of the covenant of grace [Jeremiah 32:40].
-All these factors give rise to the certainty and infallibility of the security and perseverance of the saints.
The saints may, through the temptation of Satan and the world, and because their remaining sinful tendencies prevail over them, and through their neglect of the means which God has provided to keep them fall into grievous sins.
They may continue in this state for some time [Matthew 26:70-74] , so that they incur God's displeasure, grieve His Holy Spirit [Isaiah 64:5-9; Ephesians 4:30], suffer the impairment of their graces and comforts [Psalm 51:10-12], have their hearts hardened and their consciences wounded [Psalm 2:3-4], and hurt and scandalise others. By this they will bring temporal judgements upon themselves [2 Samuel 12:14].
Yet they shall [in time] renew their repentance and be preserved, through faith in Christ Jesus, to the end [Luke 22:32, 61-62].
This perseverance of the saints does not depend on them- that is, on their own free will. It rests upon the immutability of the decree of election [Romans 8:30; 9:11-16], which flows from the free and unchangeable love of God the Father. It also rests upon the efficacy of the merit and intercession of Jesus Christ and upon the union which true saints have with Him [Romans 5:9-10; John 14:19].
- It rests upon the oath of God [Hebrews 6:17-18], and upon the abiding of His Spirit.
- It depends upon the seed of God being within them [1 John 3:9] and upon the very nature of the covenant of grace [Jeremiah 32:40].
-All these factors give rise to the certainty and infallibility of the security and perseverance of the saints.
The saints may, through the temptation of Satan and the world, and because their remaining sinful tendencies prevail over them, and through their neglect of the means which God has provided to keep them fall into grievous sins.
They may continue in this state for some time [Matthew 26:70-74] , so that they incur God's displeasure, grieve His Holy Spirit [Isaiah 64:5-9; Ephesians 4:30], suffer the impairment of their graces and comforts [Psalm 51:10-12], have their hearts hardened and their consciences wounded [Psalm 2:3-4], and hurt and scandalise others. By this they will bring temporal judgements upon themselves [2 Samuel 12:14].
Yet they shall [in time] renew their repentance and be preserved, through faith in Christ Jesus, to the end [Luke 22:32, 61-62].
This perseverance of the saints is okay,
butski we need to understand exactly who the saints are!
Paul writes NOT to the saints in Ephesus and Colossae,
butski to the "faithful" saints in those locals.
Enormous difference between the two groups!
Is the Holy Spirit always successful in getting
the unfaithful ones to become faithful ones?
Perhaps, butski the NT warns of the consequences,
if the unfaithful ones do not co-operate
and become overcomers!
Lottsa warnings, butski how many fail to heed them?
In today's western churches, I'd say MANY will fail.
Last edited:
So you think the 'saints' in Philippi are somehow of a lower order than those in Ephesus and Colossae?
I don't think so! Read Philippians 1:6. A saint is a saint; he's not just a church member. If someone doesn't endure, he's not a saint ipso facto. The saints are beloved of God (Romans 1:7) and He will keep them until the end.
Maybe so, but 'Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand' (Romans 14:4).
Samuels, you are not wrong to point out the need for professing Christians to persevere, but if salvation comes by our own efforts, Christ died for nothing (cf. Galatians 2:21).
MM, do I really need to make along list of NT verses,
which clearly instruct church members to "do this and do that" in order to have salvation (erstwhile called eternal life)?
Yes, I do ... but I'll just give you 2 handy ones ...
from Romans 6 ...
TLB v16 Don’t you realize that you can choose your own master? You can choose sin (with death) or else obedience (with acquittal). The one to whom you offer yourself—he will take you and be your master, and you will be his slave.
NLT v16 Don’t you realize that you become the slave of whatever you choose to obey? You can be a slave to sin, which leads to death, or you can choose to obey God, which leads to righteous living.
TLB v19 so now you must let yourselves be slaves to all that is right and holy.
NLT v19 Now you must give yourselves to be slaves to righteous living so that you will become holy.
Let us end this with a tongue-in-cheek hidden suggestion, i.e. a subtle hint (which is normal for Paul) ...
NLT v22 But now you are free from the power of sin and have become slaves of God. Now you do those
things that lead to holiness and result in eternal life.
Yeah, IF they really became slaves and did these things ... Paul wouldn't be warning them about sinning, etc. so often!
Please, give me a break.
Last edited:
You can do whatever you like, but you will be well advised, firstly to note the context and secondly to use a proper Bible translation instead of those wretched paraphrases.
In Romans 6, it is clear that the Christians in Rome had been told been given the false teaching that once someone makes a profession of faith he can live however he wants.
Romans 6:14. 'For sin shall not be your master, for you are not under law but under grace.'
Note that Paul doesn't say 'should not....' or must not.....' It's 'shall not......' The perseverance of the true Christian is absolutely certain.
But he continues:
Romans 6:15. 'What then? Shall we sin because we are not under law but under grace? certainly not!'
First point. Christians are under grace, not under law.
v.16. 'Do you not know that to whom you present yourselves slaves to obey, you are that one's slaves whom you obey, whether of sin leading to death, or of obedience leading to righteousness?
Second point. If someone is a slave of sin, he is not a Christian.
v.17. 'But God be thanked that though you were slaves of sin, yet you obeyed from the heart that form of doctrine to which you were delivered, and having been set free from sin, you became slaves of righteousness.'
Third point. If someone is a Christian, he has been delivered from the realm of sin and become the slave of Jesus Christ the righteous (1 John 2:1).
I have used the NKJV translation, but the ESV and other reputable translations are similar.
Americans have been so dumbed-down that
they simply cannot understand my favorite NKJV.
IMO, they have a mucho better chance with a paraphrase.
You, for example, evidently do not comprehend Paul's
method of writing, which often is tongue-in-cheek
(otherwise he is contradicting himself).
Also, you do not understand (or refuse to accept)
what Paul is getting at in Romans 6.
Yes, we do acxcept that paul was adressing the truth that at the Second coming of jesus, all of those things will no longer be needed BUT
the bile also clearly teaches that what God did among the Church in the neginning was for a time, during the transition from old to new covenant, and that the Holy spirit did guide and instruct thru Apostles just as he did the OT prophets, but now since the Bible is complete to us, the Apostolic office ended, and so we have ALL that is required to us to have now, and no more need to have those sign gifts in operation!
Let's see:
1) God must credit a person's faith as righteousness
2) God must transfer the person into Christ.
3) Undergoing the circumcision of Christ where the person's sin burden is removed.
4) Arising in Christ a new creation, made perfect and holy and blameless by the blood of Christ.
5) Thus, having been made firm in Christ, the person is sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit forever.
1) God must credit a person's faith as righteousness
2) God must transfer the person into Christ.
3) Undergoing the circumcision of Christ where the person's sin burden is removed.
4) Arising in Christ a new creation, made perfect and holy and blameless by the blood of Christ.
5) Thus, having been made firm in Christ, the person is sealed in Christ with the Holy Spirit forever.
Okay let's take Romans 6:
12 Let not sin therefore reign in your mortal body, that ye should obey the lusts thereof:
Let not= a command, we as believers are told to let not sin reign, so if we are not to allow it reign does that mean we can also disobey the command and allow it to reign? Because Paul says not to let reign so that we should obey the lust thereof, very clear believers can allow sin to reign in their lives and the lust thereof.
13 neither present your members unto sin [as] instruments of unrighteousness; but present yourselves unto God, as alive from the dead, and your members [as] instruments of righteousness unto God.
Neither present=yet another command, do not present your members unto sin [as] instruments of unrighteousness again a command to believer by the Apostle Paul, instead present=command, yourselves unto God, you either present yourselves to sin as a believer or you present yourselves to God as alive and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. Nothing yet that says a believer who is operating out of the will of God has lost their salvation. Now they are dead in the fact that they suffered Temporal death, Temporaly out of God's will (Fellowship), God won't hear or answer their prayer untill sin is confessed, they are also in a state of Operational death not operating under the filling or control of the Holy Spirit thus violating Paul's command in Ephesians 5:18.
14 For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under law, but under grace.
The Old nature in us to sin has no dominion over us why because we have the Holy Spirit in us and we have become believers, however if we choose to follow sin we have allowed the old nature to reign over us.
15 What then? shall we sin, because we are not under law, but under grace? God forbid.
We shouldn't sin that is clear and yet another command.
16 Know ye not, that to whom ye present yourselves [as] servants unto obedience, his servants ye are whom ye obey; whether of sin unto death, or of obedience unto righteousness?
A believer is either a servant to obedience or a servant to sin and Temporal and eventually Operational death is occurring, death meaning separation, they are separated from God's will and the filling (control) of the Holy spirit. But it is very clear believers are under the servanthood of one or the other.
17 But thanks be to God, that, whereas ye were servants of sin, ye became obedient from the heart to that form of teaching whereunto ye were delivered;
We were in Bondage to the Old Sin Nature before salvation, but were delivered from that bondage. That didn't change and never will. We were obedient to the word of God from the heart and were delivered from our trespasses and sins.
18 and being made free from sin, ye became servants of righteousness.
We became servants of righteousness free for the bondage of the old nature to sin and free to serve God through confession of sin.
[Interesting that Paul here is addressing those who have ALREADY been saved by the Grace of God, eh?
ALL who get saved by God are forever kept by God, Jesus said that, not me, and also, we are commanded and exhorted to live as we ought to now since being saved by him, NOT in order to get or be kept saved by him!
ALL who get saved by God are forever kept by God, Jesus said that, not me, and also, we are commanded and exhorted to live as we ought to now since being saved by him, NOT in order to get or be kept saved by him!