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Regeneration
- Thread starter JonC
- Start date
Who are these people?:
Regeneration Is Immediate
Or this guy?:
Does regeneration necessarily precede conversion?
What did the OLD SBs say?:
The Doctrine of Regeneration
Lol, so what might that point be? That the abundant life that Christ gives is a joyless one?
...hmmmm
for the kingdom of God is.... righteousness and peace and joy in the Holy Spirit. Ro 14:17
Brother KYR, I take acception with "Instead, we mean that the new birth is something that happens without means. God the Holy Spirit alone works upon the soul, He does not use any other agent to change the heart." I agree that it is God and God alone who changes the heart. I do not disagree with this in the least. Yet, God does this via means, via the gospel. To use John the Baptist in Elizabeth's womb is a poor example as he is the only one to have had this happen to him, as recorded in the scriptures.
Brother KYR...
"Regeneration means that one has been born again or born from above (John 3:3, 5, 7, 8). The new birth is the work of God, so that all those who are born again are “born of the Spirit” (John 3:8 ESV here and henceforth). Or, as 1 Pet 1:3 says, it is God who “caused us to be born again to a living hope” (1 Pet 1:3). The means God uses to grant such new life is the gospel, for believers “have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God” (1 Pet 1:23; cf. Jas 1:18). Regeneration or being born again is a supernatural birth. Just as we cannot do anything to be born physically—it just happens to us!—so too we cannot do anything to cause our spiritual rebirth."
This is my point. Yes, regeneration ain't conversion, and vice versa. But one does not become regenerated without ever having heard about Jesus Christ.
"Regeneration means that one has been born again or born from above (John 3:3, 5, 7, 8). The new birth is the work of God, so that all those who are born again are “born of the Spirit” (John 3:8 ESV here and henceforth). Or, as 1 Pet 1:3 says, it is God who “caused us to be born again to a living hope” (1 Pet 1:3). The means God uses to grant such new life is the gospel, for believers “have been born again, not of perishable seed but of imperishable, through the living and abiding word of God” (1 Pet 1:23; cf. Jas 1:18). Regeneration or being born again is a supernatural birth. Just as we cannot do anything to be born physically—it just happens to us!—so too we cannot do anything to cause our spiritual rebirth."
This is my point. Yes, regeneration ain't conversion, and vice versa. But one does not become regenerated without ever having heard about Jesus Christ.
Brother KYR...
Q. 32. How are we made partakers of the redemption obtained by Christ?
A. We are made partakers of the redemption obtained by Christ, by the effectual application of it to us [o], by His Holy Spirit [p].
o. Galatians 4:5
p. Titus 3:5-6
Q. 33. How doth the Spirit apply to us the redemption obtained by Christ?
A. The Spirit applieth to us the redemption obtained by Christ, by working faith in us [q], and thereby uniting us to Christ [r], in our effectual calling [s].
q. Ephesians 2:8
r. Ephesians 3:17
s. I Corinthians 1:9
Q. 34. What is effectual calling?
A. Effectual calling is the work of God’s Spirit [t], whereby convincing us of our sin [u] and misery [w], enlightening our minds in the knowledge of Christ [x], and renewing our wills [y], he doth persuade and enable us to embrace Jesus Christ, revealed as the free gift of God to us, in the gospel [z].
t. II Timothy 1:9
u. John 16:8
w. Acts 2:37
x. Acts 26:18
y. Ezekiel 36:26
z. John 6:44-45
I have zero clue why you included those last two links...they undermined your stance, sawed your legs off at the knees.
Q. 32. How are we made partakers of the redemption obtained by Christ?
A. We are made partakers of the redemption obtained by Christ, by the effectual application of it to us [o], by His Holy Spirit [p].
o. Galatians 4:5
p. Titus 3:5-6
Q. 33. How doth the Spirit apply to us the redemption obtained by Christ?
A. The Spirit applieth to us the redemption obtained by Christ, by working faith in us [q], and thereby uniting us to Christ [r], in our effectual calling [s].
q. Ephesians 2:8
r. Ephesians 3:17
s. I Corinthians 1:9
Q. 34. What is effectual calling?
A. Effectual calling is the work of God’s Spirit [t], whereby convincing us of our sin [u] and misery [w], enlightening our minds in the knowledge of Christ [x], and renewing our wills [y], he doth persuade and enable us to embrace Jesus Christ, revealed as the free gift of God to us, in the gospel [z].
t. II Timothy 1:9
u. John 16:8
w. Acts 2:37
x. Acts 26:18
y. Ezekiel 36:26
z. John 6:44-45
I have zero clue why you included those last two links...they undermined your stance, sawed your legs off at the knees.
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Brother KYR...from the link 'The doctrine of regeneration'...
James P. Boyce (first president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, in Louisville, Kentucky): “It is not strange, therefore, that they [i.e. regeneration and conversion] are often confounded. Yet, after all, the Scriptures also teach that regeneration is the work of God, changing the heart of man by his sovereign will, while conversion is that act of man turning towards God with the new inclination thus given to his heart” (Abstract of Systematic Theology, p. 374).
John A. Broadus (distinguished professor of New Testament and successor to Boyce at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary): “1. Q. What is meant by the word regeneration? A. Regeneration is God’s causing a person to be born again. 9. Q. Does faith come before the new birth? A. No, it is the new heart that truly repents and believes” (taken from Broadus’ A Catechism of Bible Teaching, reprinted in A Baptist Treasury, pp. 67-68).
John L. Dagg (first writing Southern Baptist theologian; president of Mercer University in Georgia): “In our natural state we are totally depraved. No inclination to holiness exists in the carnal heart; and no holy act can be performed, or service to God rendered, until the heart is changed. This change, it is the office of the Holy Spirit to effect. . . . But, in his own time and manner, God, the Holy Spirit, makes the word effectual in producing a new affection in the soul: and, when the first movement of love to God exists, the first throb of spiritual life commences” (A Manual of Theology, pp. 277, 279).
B. H. Carroll (founder and first president of Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth, Texas): “The true scriptural position [concerning regeneration] is this: There is, first of all, a direct influence of the Holy Spirit on the passive spirit of the sinner, quickening him or making him sensitive to the preaching of the Word. In this the sinner is passive. But he is not a subject of the new birth without contrition, repentance and faith. In exercising these he is active. Yet even his contrition is but a response to the Spirit’s conviction, and the exercise of his repentance is but a response to the Spirit’s conviction, and the exercise of his repentance and faith are but responses to the antecedent spiritual graces of repentance and faith.” Carroll goes on to state that “repentance and faith are fruits of regeneration” (An Interpretation of the English Bible, Volume 4, p. 287).
J. B. Tidwell (professor of Bible at Baylor University in Waco, Texas): “Regeneration is a change of the soul’s affections from self to God–an act of God by which the governing disposition of the soul which was formerly sinful becomes holy, 2 Cor. 2:17–this making us new creatures.” (Christian Teachings, p. 54)
W. T. Conner (professor of Systematic Theology at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary): “This change [i.e., regeneration] is one that is wrought in the moral nature of man by the Spirit of God. Nothing but divine power could produce the change. . . . God’s power works this change. . . . The man who experiences regeneration knows as well as he knows daylight from darkness that he himself did not work the change.” (The Gospel of Redemption, p. 189)
Look at B.H. Carroll's quote. He does not differ than the others who were quoted, but he goes a little deeper than they and shows that regeneration via the Spirit of God is via God's word, whether by preaching and/or witnessing and/or teaching and/or reading.
James P. Boyce (first president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, in Louisville, Kentucky): “It is not strange, therefore, that they [i.e. regeneration and conversion] are often confounded. Yet, after all, the Scriptures also teach that regeneration is the work of God, changing the heart of man by his sovereign will, while conversion is that act of man turning towards God with the new inclination thus given to his heart” (Abstract of Systematic Theology, p. 374).
John A. Broadus (distinguished professor of New Testament and successor to Boyce at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary): “1. Q. What is meant by the word regeneration? A. Regeneration is God’s causing a person to be born again. 9. Q. Does faith come before the new birth? A. No, it is the new heart that truly repents and believes” (taken from Broadus’ A Catechism of Bible Teaching, reprinted in A Baptist Treasury, pp. 67-68).
John L. Dagg (first writing Southern Baptist theologian; president of Mercer University in Georgia): “In our natural state we are totally depraved. No inclination to holiness exists in the carnal heart; and no holy act can be performed, or service to God rendered, until the heart is changed. This change, it is the office of the Holy Spirit to effect. . . . But, in his own time and manner, God, the Holy Spirit, makes the word effectual in producing a new affection in the soul: and, when the first movement of love to God exists, the first throb of spiritual life commences” (A Manual of Theology, pp. 277, 279).
B. H. Carroll (founder and first president of Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth, Texas): “The true scriptural position [concerning regeneration] is this: There is, first of all, a direct influence of the Holy Spirit on the passive spirit of the sinner, quickening him or making him sensitive to the preaching of the Word. In this the sinner is passive. But he is not a subject of the new birth without contrition, repentance and faith. In exercising these he is active. Yet even his contrition is but a response to the Spirit’s conviction, and the exercise of his repentance is but a response to the Spirit’s conviction, and the exercise of his repentance and faith are but responses to the antecedent spiritual graces of repentance and faith.” Carroll goes on to state that “repentance and faith are fruits of regeneration” (An Interpretation of the English Bible, Volume 4, p. 287).
J. B. Tidwell (professor of Bible at Baylor University in Waco, Texas): “Regeneration is a change of the soul’s affections from self to God–an act of God by which the governing disposition of the soul which was formerly sinful becomes holy, 2 Cor. 2:17–this making us new creatures.” (Christian Teachings, p. 54)
W. T. Conner (professor of Systematic Theology at Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary): “This change [i.e., regeneration] is one that is wrought in the moral nature of man by the Spirit of God. Nothing but divine power could produce the change. . . . God’s power works this change. . . . The man who experiences regeneration knows as well as he knows daylight from darkness that he himself did not work the change.” (The Gospel of Redemption, p. 189)
Look at B.H. Carroll's quote. He does not differ than the others who were quoted, but he goes a little deeper than they and shows that regeneration via the Spirit of God is via God's word, whether by preaching and/or witnessing and/or teaching and/or reading.
I believe the only way to really grasp regeneration is from a proper understanding of the ontological makeup of a man.
The "what" of man is spirit and body
The "who" of man is soul.
Scripture says the inner man, or spirit, has been made perfect. Washed, cleansed, purufied, sins removed. Healed. Regenerated. And this is spoken of as having been completed already. Especially in Hebrews 9-10. We haven't simply been credited with the righteousness of God, we have been made the righteousness of God. New creation, not just a new mindset.
Scripture also speaks in the same kind of terms regarding the body, anticipating the resurrection. Our body is not healed yet, or regenerated yet. Sin has not been removed from our body yet. But it will happen "in the regeneration"
It is my firm belief that our soul has not been, is not being, nor will be regenerated. It's simply our personhood - persona. personality. ego. Our soul is influenced by the spirit relating to God, or by the body (through our senses).
So we have a sinless, regenerated spirit dwelling in a sinful unregenerated body, both holding sway over our soul. We are called to "walk" in the spirit and not yield to the flesh. This is the ongoing part, being transformed by a renewing of the mind to put away the influence of the flesh. Like Jesus did. In the resurrection our body will be made perfect, and our mind will have no sinful influences.
The "what" of man is spirit and body
The "who" of man is soul.
Scripture says the inner man, or spirit, has been made perfect. Washed, cleansed, purufied, sins removed. Healed. Regenerated. And this is spoken of as having been completed already. Especially in Hebrews 9-10. We haven't simply been credited with the righteousness of God, we have been made the righteousness of God. New creation, not just a new mindset.
Scripture also speaks in the same kind of terms regarding the body, anticipating the resurrection. Our body is not healed yet, or regenerated yet. Sin has not been removed from our body yet. But it will happen "in the regeneration"
It is my firm belief that our soul has not been, is not being, nor will be regenerated. It's simply our personhood - persona. personality. ego. Our soul is influenced by the spirit relating to God, or by the body (through our senses).
So we have a sinless, regenerated spirit dwelling in a sinful unregenerated body, both holding sway over our soul. We are called to "walk" in the spirit and not yield to the flesh. This is the ongoing part, being transformed by a renewing of the mind to put away the influence of the flesh. Like Jesus did. In the resurrection our body will be made perfect, and our mind will have no sinful influences.
No, they did not 'saw my legs off'. Several anti-Jn 1:13/3:8 folks have posted recently making no distinction between the heavenly birth and conversion. All three links clearly make that distinction between the two and that one definitely precedes the other. From the SB link:
"James P. Boyce (first president of the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary, in Louisville, Kentucky): "It is not strange, therefore, that they [i.e. regeneration and conversion] are often confounded. Yet, after all, the Scriptures also teach that regeneration is the work of God, changing the heart of man by his sovereign will, while conversion is that act of man turning towards God with the new inclination thus given to his heart" (Abstract of Systematic Theology, p. 374).
John A. Broadus (distinguished professor of New Testament and successor to Boyce at Southern Baptist Theological Seminary): "1. Q. What is meant by the word regeneration? A. Regeneration is God's causing a person to be born again. 9. Q. Does faith come before the new birth? A. No, it is the new heart that truly repents and believes" (taken from Broadus' A Catechism of Bible Teaching, reprinted in A Baptist Treasury, pp. 67-68).
John L. Dagg (first writing Southern Baptist theologian; president of Mercer University in Georgia): "In our natural state we are totally depraved. No inclination to holiness exists in the carnal heart; and no holy act can be performed, or service to God rendered, until the heart is changed. This change, it is the office of the Holy Spirit to effect. . . . But, in his own time and manner, God, the Holy Spirit, makes the word effectual in producing a new affection in the soul: and, when the first movement of love to God exists, the first throb of spiritual life commences" (A Manual of Theology, pp. 277, 279).
B. H. Carroll (founder and first president of Southwestern Baptist Theological Seminary in Fort Worth, Texas): "The true scriptural position [concerning regeneration] is this: There is, first of all, a direct influence of the Holy Spirit on the passive spirit of the sinner, quickening him or making him sensitive to the preaching of the Word. In this the sinner is passive. But he is not a subject of the new birth without contrition, repentance and faith. In exercising these he is active. Yet even his contrition is but a response to the Spirit's conviction, and the exercise of his repentance is but a response to the Spirit's conviction, and the exercise of his repentance and faith are but responses to the antecedent spiritual graces of repentance and faith." Carroll goes on to state that "repentance and faith are fruits of regeneration" (An Interpretation of the English Bible, Volume 4, p. 287)."
22 for I delight in the law of God according to the inward man,
23 and I behold another law in my members, warring against the law of my mind, and bringing me into captivity to the law of the sin that is in my members. Ro 7
"John L. Dagg (first writing Southern Baptist theologian; president of Mercer University in Georgia): "In our natural state we are totally depraved. No inclination to holiness exists in the carnal heart; and no holy act can be performed, or service to God rendered, until the heart is changed. This change, it is the office of the Holy Spirit to effect. . . . But, in his own time and manner, God, the Holy Spirit, makes the word effectual in producing a new affection in the soul: and, when the first movement of love to God exists, the first throb of spiritual life commences" (A Manual of Theology, pp. 277, 279)."
15 But when it was the good pleasure of God, who separated me, even from my mother`s womb, and called me through his grace,
16 to reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the Gentiles; straightway I conferred not with flesh and blood: Gal 1
15 But when it was the good pleasure of God, who separated me, even from my mother`s womb, and called me through his grace,
16 to reveal his Son in me, that I might preach him among the Gentiles; straightway I conferred not with flesh and blood: Gal 1
Regeneration, being spiritually born anew, occurs after God credits our faith as righteousness and transfers us out of the realm of darkness into the kingdom of His Son.
Lets consider John 1:12-13. "But as many as received Him" is indeed referring to when a person responds to the gospel. It does not say during the presentation so this response could be during or after.
"to them He gave the right to become child of God" How do we obtain the right to be adopted at Christ's second coming? When we are regenerated! When we are born anew! Which occurs when we are spiritually placed in Christ.
"even to those who believe in His name." So the "receivers" are putting their faith and trust in Christ, even though they did not know Jesus as a physical person.
"who were born" To whom does the "who" refer? The receivers? Yes. God givers the right to become children of God by causing them to be born of God. Regeneration!
Did God do this before they received or after. After! To those who received He gave spiritual regeneration which establishes their right to become children of God physically at Christ second coming.
Lets consider John 1:12-13. "But as many as received Him" is indeed referring to when a person responds to the gospel. It does not say during the presentation so this response could be during or after.
"to them He gave the right to become child of God" How do we obtain the right to be adopted at Christ's second coming? When we are regenerated! When we are born anew! Which occurs when we are spiritually placed in Christ.
"even to those who believe in His name." So the "receivers" are putting their faith and trust in Christ, even though they did not know Jesus as a physical person.
"who were born" To whom does the "who" refer? The receivers? Yes. God givers the right to become children of God by causing them to be born of God. Regeneration!
Did God do this before they received or after. After! To those who received He gave spiritual regeneration which establishes their right to become children of God physically at Christ second coming.
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Romans 1:16 does not say regeneration occurs before receiving the gospel.
1 Corinthians 1:18-21 does not say regeneration occurs before receiving the gospel.
Ephesians 1:13 does not say regeneration occurs before receiving the gospel.
So three for three non-germane verses claimed to support what is not found anywhere in scripture.
Regeneration occurs when a person is transferred into Christ after God credits their faith as righteousness. No one was regeneration before Christ died and no one is regenerated until placed spiritually in Christ.
1 Corinthians 1:18-21 does not say regeneration occurs before receiving the gospel.
Ephesians 1:13 does not say regeneration occurs before receiving the gospel.
So three for three non-germane verses claimed to support what is not found anywhere in scripture.
Regeneration occurs when a person is transferred into Christ after God credits their faith as righteousness. No one was regeneration before Christ died and no one is regenerated until placed spiritually in Christ.
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I like this post, I agree, now let me ask.
Relative to Jesus speaking to Nicodemus in John 3 and relative to the gospel of the kingdom of God: Is Jesus speaking of man in a piece meal manner of being born again. That he needs to be born again a piece at a time or that the whole of the man needs to be born again? That which was born of woman must be born of Spirit? The whole of the man?
Does not the entering in, the inheriting, just as the children of Israel crossed over the Jordan to inherit to enter in, take place when the Son of Man shall sit on the throne of his glory, "in the regeneration"? Matt 19:28 Must we follow Jesus, in the regeneration, in order to inherit, enter the promise land, the city not made with hands?
Does not the, Spirit of adoption, bring forth, give birth, to the adoption? R8:11 But if the Spirit of him that raised up Jesus from the dead dwell in you, he that raised up Christ from the dead shall also quicken your mortal bodies by his Spirit that dwelleth in you. R8:15,23 For ye have not received the spirit of bondage again to fear; but ye have received the Spirit of adoption, whereby we cry, Abba, Father. And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.
Does baptism point to new birth?
But I have a baptism to be baptized with; and how am I straitened till it be accomplished! Luke 12:50 What baptism was that?
Did the immersion of Jesus in the Jordan point to his death? Did Jesus literally die?
Did his coming up out of the water point to him being, made alive, quickened, from the dead? Was his soul raised from Hades in flesh incorruptible? Was this done by the Spirit? Rom 8:11, 1 Peter 3:18, Acts 2:31,
Was the Spirit then upon him? Did He receive from the Father the promise of the Holt Spirit? Was Jesus renewed with Holy Spirit? Acts 2:33
Therefore being by the right hand of God exalted, and having received of the Father the promise of the Holy Ghost, he hath shed forth this, which ye now see and hear.
Declared the Son of God with power? Rom 1:4 And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead:
Both times this voice was heard from heaven stating,"beloved Son," it is in the context of, the resurrected Jesus. At his baptism and at the transfiguration and coming in his glory.
Do we also still have a baptism to be baptized with?
Does not born again refer to the whole of the man and is still in the future?
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We received the promise of the Spirit because the faith came by which we can be declared righteous. in him. Gal 3:14 Gal 3:23,25 2 Cor 5:21
That promise of the Spirit, then is our earnest, that we shall be like him in his resurrection, that the selfsame thing that Jesus received we also shall receive. 2 Cor 4:7 through 5:5
That is all relative to the faith of God in Christ.
Even the faith of 2 Cor 4:13 is the faith of Christ, the Lord, being dead yet believing he will walk before the LORD. That belief is given us through the promise of the Spirit. Phil 1:29
1 Thes 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so (by the same manner) them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. To enter, to inherit the kingdom of God.
The Spirit of the same faith of Jesus???????????????????????????????
That promise of the Spirit, then is our earnest, that we shall be like him in his resurrection, that the selfsame thing that Jesus received we also shall receive. 2 Cor 4:7 through 5:5
That is all relative to the faith of God in Christ.
Even the faith of 2 Cor 4:13 is the faith of Christ, the Lord, being dead yet believing he will walk before the LORD. That belief is given us through the promise of the Spirit. Phil 1:29
1 Thes 4:14 For if we believe that Jesus died and rose again, even so (by the same manner) them also which sleep in Jesus will God bring with him. To enter, to inherit the kingdom of God.
The Spirit of the same faith of Jesus???????????????????????????????
Where do we obtain the blessings of Abraham? In Christ or outside of Christ? Galatians 3:14. Where do we become the righteousness of God? In Christ or outside of Christ? 2 Corinthians 5:21.
Regeneration occurs when a person is transferred into Christ after God credits their faith as righteousness. No one was regeneration before Christ died and no one is regenerated until placed spiritually in Christ.
Regeneration occurs when a person is transferred into Christ after God credits their faith as righteousness. No one was regeneration before Christ died and no one is regenerated until placed spiritually in Christ.
Does the receiving of the Holy Spirit put one who was birthed of the earth, earthly, in the body of Christ, Jerusalem above, Mount Zion, the mother of us all, to be birthed of the heavenly at the return of Christ, into the kingdom of God?
Consider
Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child. Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children. Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God. Isa 66:7-9
Is the man child of verse 7 the resurrection of Jesus being birthed without birthpangs?
Acts 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament
Verse 24
Verse 24
God raised up (ο τεος ανεστησεν — ho theos anestēsen). Est hoc summum orationis (Blass). Apparently this is the first public proclamation to others than believers of the fact of the Resurrection of Jesus. “At a time it was still possible to test the statement, to examine witnesses, to expose fraud, the Apostle openly proclaimed the Resurrection as a fact, needing no evidence, but known to his hearers” (Furneaux).
The pangs of death (τας ωδινας του τανατου — tas ōdinas tou thanatou). Codex Bezae has “Hades” instead of death. The lxx has ωδινας τανατου — ōdinas thanatou in Psalm 18:4, but the Hebrew original means “snares” or “traps” or “cords” of death where sheol and death are personified as hunters laying snares for prey. How Peter or Luke came to use the old Greek word ωδινας — ōdinas(birth pangs) we do not know. Early Christian writers interpreted the Resurrection of Christ as a birth out of death. “Loosing” (λυσας — lusas) suits better the notion of “snares” held a prisoner by death, but birth pangs do bring deliverance to the mother also.
Because (κατοτι — kathoti). This old conjunction (κατα οτι — kataκρατεισται αυτον — hoti) occurs in the N.T. only in Luke‘s writings.
That he should be holden (ην αδυνατον — krateisthai auton). Infinitive present passive with accusative of general reference and subject of λυσας — ēn adunaton The figure goes with “loosed” (lusas) above.
What can I say. Maybe, just maybe, the Holy Spirit inspired them/him to use the word for birth pangs.
Consider
Before she travailed, she brought forth; before her pain came, she was delivered of a man child. Who hath heard such a thing? who hath seen such things? Shall the earth be made to bring forth in one day? or shall a nation be born at once? for as soon as Zion travailed, she brought forth her children. Shall I bring to the birth, and not cause to bring forth? saith the LORD: shall I cause to bring forth, and shut the womb? saith thy God. Isa 66:7-9
Is the man child of verse 7 the resurrection of Jesus being birthed without birthpangs?
Acts 2:24 Whom God hath raised up, having loosed the pains of death: because it was not possible that he should be holden of it.
Robertson's Word Pictures in the New Testament
Verse 24
Verse 24
God raised up (ο τεος ανεστησεν — ho theos anestēsen). Est hoc summum orationis (Blass). Apparently this is the first public proclamation to others than believers of the fact of the Resurrection of Jesus. “At a time it was still possible to test the statement, to examine witnesses, to expose fraud, the Apostle openly proclaimed the Resurrection as a fact, needing no evidence, but known to his hearers” (Furneaux).
The pangs of death (τας ωδινας του τανατου — tas ōdinas tou thanatou). Codex Bezae has “Hades” instead of death. The lxx has ωδινας τανατου — ōdinas thanatou in Psalm 18:4, but the Hebrew original means “snares” or “traps” or “cords” of death where sheol and death are personified as hunters laying snares for prey. How Peter or Luke came to use the old Greek word ωδινας — ōdinas(birth pangs) we do not know. Early Christian writers interpreted the Resurrection of Christ as a birth out of death. “Loosing” (λυσας — lusas) suits better the notion of “snares” held a prisoner by death, but birth pangs do bring deliverance to the mother also.
Because (κατοτι — kathoti). This old conjunction (κατα οτι — kataκρατεισται αυτον — hoti) occurs in the N.T. only in Luke‘s writings.
That he should be holden (ην αδυνατον — krateisthai auton). Infinitive present passive with accusative of general reference and subject of λυσας — ēn adunaton The figure goes with “loosed” (lusas) above.
What can I say. Maybe, just maybe, the Holy Spirit inspired them/him to use the word for birth pangs.
Internet Theologian
Well-Known Member
How you came to that absurd (and false) conclusion off of my statement is bewildering. Tell me how you deduced that from what I stated. I'll get the popcorn!
"Does the receiving of the Holy Spirit put one who was birthed of the earth, earthly, in the body of Christ, Jerusalem above, Mount Zion, the mother of us all, to be birthed of the heavenly at the return of Christ, into the kingdom of God?"
No. After we are put into Christ spiritually, then we are sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit. We are not born anew spiritually at Christ's second coming, but we are resurrected in glorified bodies, our adoption as sons[children] of God, Romans 8:23.
No. After we are put into Christ spiritually, then we are sealed in Him with the Holy Spirit. We are not born anew spiritually at Christ's second coming, but we are resurrected in glorified bodies, our adoption as sons[children] of God, Romans 8:23.
Is the Zion that travailed of Isa 66:8 and the Mt Zion, the heavenly Jerusalem of Hebrews 12:22 and Jerusalem which is above of Gal. 4:26, all the same?
When do you think she brings forth her children? When do you think the nation, will be born at once?
You may be correct but I think the questions are merited, relative to the scriptures quoted.