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Featured The KJV has not remained unchanged since 1769

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by Logos1560, Aug 25, 2016.

  1. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Weren't some versions of the KJV also based upon the 1894 revision TR text though?
    Maybe Zondervans was for awhile?
     
  2. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    As far as I know there is not an edition of the KJV based on Scrivener's 1894 Greek New Testament. In fact, the opposite is true.

    Here is an excellent recounting of the 1894 text, its purpose, and its value.

    https://biblia.com/books/tr1894mr/Mt

    When the page loads it will start at the beginning of the Greek text itself. Scroll back up to the Introduction, which is what I referenced above.
     
  3. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    There is one edition: The NKJV. :Biggrin
     
  4. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    I keep learning new facts about editions of the KJV, and I keep revising and adding to my information about them.

    It remains the truth that the text of the KJV has not remained unchanged since 1769.
     
  5. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    The KJV text printed in the 1791 edition printed by Isaac Collins in Trenton, New Jersey, and the KJV text in the 1791 edition printed by Isaiah Thomas in Worcester, Massachusetts, is not unchanged from the 1769 Oxford KJV text.

    Both of these printers/editors consulted and compared several varying editions of the KJV, and they made editing or printing decisions that differed from each other and from the 1769 Oxford.
     
  6. Logos1560

    Logos1560 Well-Known Member
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    There would be more than one KJV edition that would have Timothy in place of Timotheos.


    Acts 16:1

    Timothy [2005, 2011 Cambridge] (1784 Piguenit) (1843 AFBS) (1963, 1968, 1970, 1971, 1988, 2004, 2008 ABS) (1911 TCE) (1968 Royal) (1970 TN) (1975 Open) (CSB) (RRB) (LASB) (1984, 1991 AMG) (KJRLB) (2006 PENG) (2002, 2010 KJVER) (1833 WEB) (1842 Bernard) (1851 Cone)

    Timotheus (1769 Oxford, SRB) [1769 Cambridge, DKJB}
     
    • Informative Informative x 2
  7. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    But that 1894 is considered to be the closest to the original texts in the TR then?
     
  8. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    I am not sure what you mean. The 1894 IS a TR. But it is quite different from the 1516 edition of Erasmus if that is what you are referring to when you say "the original texts in the TR."

    If you are talking about the Byzantine textform, then, no, no TR could be said to be close. All TRs show the inherent dangers of uncorrected transcription.
     
  9. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    Scrivener's compilation was an attempt to identify the Greek text underlying the KJV, which came from different sources. Thus it represents a variation of the TR, but only that which the KJV translators decided to use. Scrivener in his 1881 edition noted that the translators had, in some places, apparently used the Vulgate or the Rheims as the basis for renderings..
     
  10. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    Actually "quite different" is an objective statement.

    Scriveners has no variants or apparatus as it is not a "critical" work but as rsr has said - "an attempt to identify the Greek text underlying the KJV".

    Take a Nestle-Aland (NA) to see the NT text reconstructed from the major Greek Texts and manuscripts.
    Even 1 John 5:7 (Johannine Comma) is in the NA apparatus footnotes in Greek and Latin.

    If you don't already know how, you will have to learn how to read the critical apparatus.

    There is an English tutorial section (at least in my NA) in the beginning of the work with keys to the apparatus codes used in the body of the text.

    Take your time, practice using it and soon you won't need to flip back and forth.

    HankD
     
  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    It was an attempt to give in final form the textual basis used by the Kjv translators, the best that could show where they got version off from, correct?
     
  12. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    But it is a critical edition which includes a textual apparatus indicating the source for the variants. That was its original purpose. To indicate the differences between the ERV of 1881 and the KJV of 1611/1769 and the source of those differences.

    Most people forget, or didn't know, that Scrivener was on the translation committee for the ERV of 1881.
     
  13. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    So there is still no real TR Only text that can be used to support KJVO based upon these revisions and amendings to the textual basis used for the Kjv itself....
     
  14. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    There is no textual basis for KJVO, of any sort. Scriveners TR did not exist prior to 1881. The KJV is an eclectic revision of the Bishops' Bible. There is no singular source text underlying the NT. (The OT is more cohesive and tends to, for the most part, reflect Bomberg's Hebrew text.)

    As best as we can discern Erasmus used 7 manuscripts to produce his first edition of 1516.

    Minuscule 1eap, which contained all of the NT except Revelation.
    Minuscule1rK, which contained the Book of Revelation.
    Minuscule 2e, which contained the Gospels.
    Minuscule 2ap, which contained the Acts and Epistles.
    Minuscule 4ap, which contained the Pauline epistles.
    Minuscule 7p, which also contained the Pauline epistles.
    Minuscule 817, which contained the Gospel.

    But none of Erasmus's 5 editions of his TR follows any of those manuscripts entirely.

    For the second edition of 1519 he also used Minuscule 3 (entire NT except Revelation) but his 1519 edition differed from the 1516 edition in about 400 places.

    For the third edition of 1522 he added Codex Montfortianus to his group of manuscripts (famous for the fact it contained the Johnnine Comma). Montfortianus contains a scribal error in Revelation 2:13. The third edition differs from the second edition in 118 places.

    His fourth edition differed from the third edition in about 20 places.

    And his fifth edition differed from the fourth edition in only 4 places.

    But it was his third edition that was the most popular and the most used of his 5 editions and was the basis of later editions by Robert Estienne (Stephanus), Theodore Beza, and the Elzevirs (not brothers, as is commonly thought, but uncle and nephew).
     
  15. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    My apologies to all for misinformation.

    Mine does not have a critical apparatus.

    Who is the publisher Tom?

    Thanks

    HankD
     
    #35 HankD, Sep 15, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2016
  16. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Today, Scriveners TR is published, primarily, by the Trinitarian Bible Society, without the textual apparatus. I am not aware of anyone printing or making available online the Scrivener text including the apparatus.

    If anyone knows where either of those can be found please let me know. :)
     
  17. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    OK, I am currently making a scan and an inquiry of others.
    I really want an edition with an apparatus.
    I'll let everyone know if I succeed.

    Thanks
    HankD
     
  18. Martin Marprelate

    Martin Marprelate Well-Known Member
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    I have had a quick scan of one or two articles on the T.B.S. website and have not found any reference to Scrivener, let alone his apparatus. But I'm sure I have read something about Scrivener in a T.B.S. publication. You might find something here http://www.tbsbibles.org/articles or, failing that, contact the TBS and see what they have.

    In fairness to the TBS, they do faithful translations of the Bible into quite a large number of languages. I am not a Portuguese speaker, but I'm told that the translation in that language is both faithful and readable. It is the one used by the Gideons.
     
  19. HankD

    HankD Well-Known Member
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    No success yet but I did find an informative blurb about him:
    https://www.amazon.com/Greek-Testament-Scrivener-1894-Annotated-ebook&tag=baptis04-20

    This URL wont work because it's tagged with an elaborate Adware app.

    No reference notes were given.

    scan for:
    Greek New Testament (Scrivener 1894) (Annotated) Kindle Edition

    HankD
     
    #39 HankD, Sep 15, 2016
    Last edited: Sep 15, 2016
  20. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    I just bought the Kindle edition to take a look at. It does not contain the apparatus.
     
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