Faith being credited as righteousness? Part deux

[percho]

But now the righteousness of God without the law is manifested, being witnessed by the law and the prophets; Rom 3:21 KJV
And now apart from law hath the righteousness of God been manifested, testified to by the law and the prophets, Rom 3:21 YLT

but when the fulness of the time came, God sent forth his Son, born of a woman, born under the law, Gal 4:4

And before the coming of the faith, under law we were being kept, shut up to the faith about to be revealed, so that the law became our child-conductor -- to Christ, that by faith we may be declared righteous, and the faith having come, no more under a child-conductor are we,

I ask again. What took place that manifested the righteousness of God?

Neither yield ye your members as instruments of unrighteousness unto sin: but yield yourselves unto God, as those that are alive from the dead, and your members as instruments of righteousness unto God. For sin shall not have dominion over you: for ye are not under the law, but under grace. Rom 6:13,14

At what moment in time, could men be removed from being under law, the schoolmaster unto Christ, to being under grace, instruments of righteousness, unto God?

Was Jesus removed from being under the law <Gal 4:4 when the righteousness of God was, manifested? Romans 6:9,10 Knowing that Christ being raised from the dead dieth no more; death hath no more dominion over him. For in that he died, he died unto sin once: but in that he liveth, he liveth unto God.

Does the resurrection from the dead of Jesus of Nazareth have anything to do with the manifestation of the righteousness of God?

Did it require life from the dead to manifest the obedience of the one who died, for our sins.

 

[Van]

Now the KJV and family (NKJV, etc) translate G3049, logzoma, a few times as impute. See, Romans 4:6, 8, 11, 22, 23, and 24 plus James 2:23. But the NASB and LEB do not.

Consider Romans 4:22 And therefore it was imputed G3049 to him for righteousness.

The "it" refers to Abraham's faith, and therefore according to the KJV mistranslation, Abraham's faith had a righteousness all its own. No, God credited his worthless merit-less faith as righteousness.

 

[rsr]

Hi RSR, it is not me but scripture that says become the righteousness of God in Him. Now refer to the verse that says Christ's righteousness is imputed to us. Tick tock

Romans 5:19
For as through the one man’s disobedience the many were made sinners, even so through the obedience of the One the many will be made righteous.

I have at least two verses on my side of the ledger, made, become, and you have zero. Quote a verse please!

I have not even ventured an opinion on the matter.

And credit, reckon, and count do not mean the same as impute, note the attributing the righteousness of another is not part of credit, reckon or count. This should not be this hard.

Apparently it is that hard. Anything can be imputed, reckoned, counted, credited to. Impute does not of itself connote righteousness. That's why the term is imputed righteousness.

http://www.etymonline.com/index.php?term=impute

 

[Van]

Whenever you see "declared righteous" read it as "justified." The declared righteous mistranslation is found primarily in the NET and HCSB with a few cases in the dreaded NIV.

 

[Van]

RSR, thanks for agreeing that I was not wrong when I said we are made and become the righteousness of God rather than having that characteristic "imputed." Take the time to consider Romans 4:22 and tell me again they mean the same thing. Even the NKJV did not go down that rabbit hole.

Impute
Theology. to attribute (righteousness, guilt, etc.) to a person or persons vicariously; ascribe as derived from another.

 

[rsr]

Sigh. I have not agreed with anything. Done here.

 

[Van]

Tick tock still waiting for someone across the divide to cite a verse in support of the righteousness of Christ being imputed. Or will the subject be changed. Tick tock.

 

[percho]

that to the nations the blessing of Abraham may come in Christ Jesus, that the promise of the Spirit we may receive through the faith. Gal 3:14 YLT

Phil 1:29 For unto you it is given in the behalf of Christ, not only to believe on him, but also to suffer for his sake;

But the righteousness which is of faith speaketh on this wise, Say not in thine heart, Who shall ascend into heaven? (that is, to bring Christ down from above Or, Who shall descend into the deep? (that is, to bring up Christ again from the dead.) But what saith it? The word is nigh thee, even in thy mouth, and in thy heart: that is, the word of faith, which we preach; That if thou shalt confess with thy mouth the Lord Jesus, and shalt believe in thine heart that God hath raised him from the dead, thou shalt be saved. For with the heart man believeth unto righteousness; and with the mouth confession is made unto salvation. For the scripture saith, Whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed. For there is no difference between the Jew and the Greek: for the same Lord over all is rich unto all that call upon him. For whosoever shall call upon the name of the Lord shall be saved. How then shall they call on him in whom they have not believed? and how shall they believe in him of whom they have not heard? and how shall they hear without a preacher? And how shall they preach, except they be sent? as it is written, How beautiful are the feet of them that preach the gospel of peace, and bring glad tidings of good things! Romans 10:6-15 KJV

Therefore I make known to you that no one speaking by the Spirit of God calls Jesus accursed, and no one can say that Jesus is Lord except by the Holy Spirit. 1 Cor 12:3 NKJV

We hear the word of faith by which we received, the Holy Spirit, the Spirit of Truth, the Spirit of adoption. That is; Christ died for our sins, he was buried, he rose from the dead, according to the scriptures,witnessed by the law and the prophets. The word of faith.

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. 2 Cor 5:21

I have a question for the Greek guys. Who does the him at the end of 5:21 refer or can that even be determined? I have the same question concerning Eph 1:10.

Bible study questions.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

For he hath made him to be sin for us, who knew no sin; that we might be made the righteousness of God in him. 2 Cor 5:21

I have a question for the Greek guys. Who does the him at the end of 5:21 refer or can that even be determined? I have the same question concerning Eph 1:10.

The 'Him' at the end of the verse is the same as the 'Him' at the start of the verse. What other candidates are there? The same applies to Ephesians 1:10. Whom else could it refer to except Christ, who is in any case the nearest antecedent?

 

[Martin Marprelate]

2 Corinthians 5:21. For He [God] made Him who knew no sin [Christ] to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.'

The One who knew no sin was made sin. Obviously the meaning is not that the Lord Jesus committed sin, nor that His perfect righteousness was somehow stripped from Him (cf. Isaiah 53:11; Acts 2:27 etc.). Here is Charles Hodge on the verse:

'He was made sin; we are made "righteousness." The only sense in which we are made the righteousness of God is that we are in Christ regarded and treated as righteous [cf. Philippians 3:9. M.M.] , and therefore the sense in which he was made sin, is that he was regarded and treated as a sinner. His being made sin is consistent with his being in himself free from sin; and our being made righteous is consistent with our being in ourselves ungodly. In other words, our sins were imputed to Christ, and his righteousness is imputed to us.'

That this is the proper meaning of the verse is shown by the use of logizomai, (to 'reckon' or 'impute') in verse 19. Christ bears what is not personally His by nature (our sins) so that we might bear what is not personally ours by nature (His righteousness).

I might add that all this is secured for us by Substitutionary Atonement. Christ is made sin 'for us,' huper hemon, 'on our behalf.'

'Because the sinless Saviour died,
My sinful soul is counted free;
For God the Just is satisfied
To look on Him and pardon Me.'

 

[percho]

2 Corinthians 5:21. For He [God] made Him who knew no sin [Christ] to be sin for us, that we might become the righteousness of God in Him.'

The One who knew no sin was made sin. Obviously the meaning is not that the Lord Jesus committed sin, nor that His perfect righteousness was somehow stripped from Him (cf. Isaiah 53:11; Acts 2:27 etc.). Here is Charles Hodge on the verse:

'He was made sin; we are made "righteousness." The only sense in which we are made the righteousness of God is that we are in Christ regarded and treated as righteous [cf. Philippians 3:9. M.M.] , and therefore the sense in which he was made sin, is that he was regarded and treated as a sinner. His being made sin is consistent with his being in himself free from sin; and our being made righteous is consistent with our being in ourselves ungodly. In other words, our sins were imputed to Christ, and his righteousness is imputed to us.'

That this is the proper meaning of the verse is shown by the use of logizomai, (to 'reckon' or 'impute') in verse 19. Christ bears what is not personally His by nature (our sins) so that we might bear what is not personally ours by nature (His righteousness).

I might add that all this is secured for us by Substitutionary Atonement. Christ is made sin 'for us,' huper hemon, 'on our behalf.'

'Because the sinless Saviour died,
My sinful soul is counted free;
For God the Just is satisfied
To look on Him and pardon Me.'

I agree. I was just looking at both as speaking of God in concept of the Father and Christ, therefore it could be a choice however I also think Christ is him in 2c5 esp. Not sure in e1:10 but probably there also.

 

[rsr]

Against my better judgment:

Van insists upon being shown that imputation is a biblical doctrine. In doing so will accept only verses that can be rendered "the righteousness of Christ." That is akin to demanding that the Trinity can be proved only by verses that say "Trinity."

Aside from stubbornly contending that imiputation is different from reckoning or ascribing, he ignores where the righteousness that we can claim comes from. It is not from our faith, but our faith in Christ, whose obedience is the source of the righteousness to which we can lay claim. Faith in and of itself is worthless; it is in the faith in God and our Lord Jesus Christ that we are justified based upon the work that Christ himself has accomplished through He his obedience to the Father.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Against my better judgment:

Van insists upon being shown that imputation is a biblical doctrine. In doing so will accept only verses that can be rendered "the righteousness of Christ." That is akin to demanding that the Trinity can be proved only by verses that say "Trinity."

Aside from stubbornly contending that imiputation is different from reckoning or ascribing, he ignores where the righteousness that we can claim comes from. It is not from our faith, but our faith in Christ, whose obedience is the source of the righteousness to which we can lay claim. Faith in and of itself is worthless; it is in the faith in God and our Lord Jesus Christ that we are justified based upon the work that Christ himself has accomplished through He his obedience to the Father.

You have to take into account who you are addressing. He will not listen to anyone not named Van. He says the unregenerate can understand the sincere milk of the gospel, but it avers differently. He wrests Matthew 23:13 from its truth. He says ppl can seek God w/o being drawn, when 1 Corinthians 2:14 avers differently.
He is a theological trainwreck.

 

[SovereignGrace]

Sigh. I have not agreed with anything. Done here.

Study his theology. [Snipped].

 

[percho]

"The righteousness of God, what is it," by William Kelly is a good read.

Google is your friend.

 

[percho]

Righteousness by the faith of Jesus?

Would the following be kind of parallel passages?

Concerning his Son Jesus Christ our Lord, which was made of the seed of David according to the flesh; And declared to be the Son of God with power, according to the spirit of holiness, by the resurrection from the dead: Romans 1:3,4 KJV

and, confessedly, great is the secret of piety -- God was manifested in flesh, declared righteous in spirit, seen by messengers, preached among nations, believed on in the world, taken up in glory!

Next question. Did God (The Father) show himself as righteous, in the resurrection of Jesus, by which we can be made the righteousness of God, in the faith of Jesus?

for the shewing forth of His righteousness in the present time, for His being righteous, and declaring him righteous who is of the faith of Jesus. Rom 3:26 YLT

Is, "in the present time," relative to the resurrection of Jesus?

 

[Yeshua1]

Imputed righteousness is the standard Reformation understanding of justification. The righteousness of Christ is counted as our righteousness before God, even though we have none of our own.

Wesley agrees that at the new birth God imputes the righteousness of Christ to our account. But sanctification requires the imparted righteousness of Christ as our nature gradually becomes more like Christ's as we are obedient to him, cooperating in the process that removes sin from our lives.

The Latin Rite believes that righteousness is infused, that is, we become justified and sanctified (they are a continuous process) from the sacraments and good works as the Holy Spirit works to make us more like Christ.

Or something like that.

Basic Reformed viewpoint is that God credits/imputes to us even while yet sinners the fullness of the Rightiousness/Grace of Jesus death at the cross towards us, so we are still yet sinners, yet God can declare us also saints at same time

Church of rome hates that, they see it legal fiction, so came up with Sacramental grace , that God infuses within sinners that choose to co operste with Him to get saved, so eventually, they would have enough of their own good works and behavior to merit God noe calling them right enough to get saved!

 

[Yeshua1]

Romans 4:4-5, 23-24. Faith is credited, counted, reckoned as righteousness to believers by God.

How can we who arer sinners by nature though get credit by God for anything that we can do?
When we stand before God, will it be my faith that gets me in, or that God clothed me with the very robe of Jesus, so He sees jesus in me, my hope of glory?

You seem to be having this faith being the very hinge salvations revolves around, and cannot see that in the Bible!

 

[Van]

Your problem is not we me but with the inspired word of God. God credits our faith, yes as worthless as it may be, as righteousness. To deny that is to deny scripture. And salvation does not "hinge" on our faith. Our faith provides our access to the "grace" of salvation. Thus salvation "hinges" on God's grace which was brought to us through the sacrifice of Christ. We are saved by grace through faith.

In summary God credits, counts, or reckons our faith as righteousness to us, He does not impute Christ's righteous to us. But having our faith credited to us as righteousness does not make us righteous, only the precious blood of Christ does that. We become the righteousness of God in Him. In Him we are made righteous.

The question you should ponder is why all the confusion. Why cannot you get this simple, clear, repeated and repeated concept in scripture straight.

 

[Van]

Against my better judgment:

Van insists upon being shown that imputation is a biblical doctrine. In doing so will accept only verses that can be rendered "the righteousness of Christ." That is akin to demanding that the Trinity can be proved only by verses that say "Trinity."

Aside from stubbornly contending that imiputation is different from reckoning or ascribing, he ignores where the righteousness that we can claim comes from. It is not from our faith, but our faith in Christ, whose obedience is the source of the righteousness to which we can lay claim. Faith in and of itself is worthless; it is in the faith in God and our Lord Jesus Christ that we are justified based upon the work that Christ himself has accomplished through He his obedience to the Father.

Did I ever say the only evidence I will accept is "the righteousness of Christ?" Nope. Why misrepresent my view, if truth is on your side?

I provided quotes from two different dictionaries in support of my view. Read Romans 4:22, did God really impute righteousness from Abraham's faith. Impute is a mistranslation.

I do not deny where our righteousness comes from. Yet another slander.

Did I say our faith which provides our access to God's grace was in pumpkin pancakes? No of course not. Of course our faith, our love, our devotion is toward Jesus.