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Dispensational error pt2......or...is it truth?
- Thread starter Iconoclast
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Relevant in general? Yes because it is Bible. Relevant to dispensationalism? No.
Cricket?Ice hockey?
How about Revelation chapter 20?
Revelation 20:1 And I saw an angel come down from heaven, having the key of the bottomless pit and a great chain in his hand.
2 And he laid hold on the dragon, that old serpent, which is the Devil, and Satan, and bound him a thousand years,
3 And cast him into the bottomless pit, and shut him up, and set a seal upon him, that he should deceive the nations no more, till the thousand years should be fulfilled: and after that he must be loosed a little season.
4 And I saw thrones, and they sat upon them, and judgment was given unto them: and I saw the souls of them that were beheaded for the witness of Jesus, and for the word of God, and which had not worshipped the beast, neither his image, neither had received his mark upon their foreheads, or in their hands; and they lived and reigned with Christ a thousand years.
5 But the rest of the dead lived not again until the thousand years were finished. This is the first resurrection.
6 Blessed and holy is he that hath part in the first resurrection: on such the second death hath no power, but they shall be priests of God and of Christ, and shall reign with him a thousand years.
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
If there is no millennium (Chiliad) then there is no resurrection of verse 5.
HankD
I believe these beheaded saints do live and reign with Christ right now....
If this is the only place the thousand yes are mentioned.....could you show where it says the reign is on earth?
And as they heard these things, he added and spake a parable, because he was nigh to Jerusalem, and because they thought that the kingdom of God should immediately appear. He said therefore, A certain nobleman went into a far country to receive for himself a kingdom, and to return. And he called his ten servants, and delivered them ten pounds, and said unto them, Occupy till I come. Luke 19:11-13
This only would I learn of you, Received ye the Spirit by the works of the law, or by the hearing of faith? That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we might receive the promise of the Spirit through faith. Gal 3:2,14
The Jews first. Acts 15:7,8 And when there had been much dispute, Peter rose up and said to them: “Men and brethren, you know that a good while ago God chose among us, that by my mouth the Gentiles should hear the word of the gospel and believe. “So God, who knows the heart, acknowledged them by giving them the Holy Spirit, just as He did to us, ,Jews) And also the Gentiles V 14 “Simon has declared how God at the first visited the Gentiles to take out of them a people for His name.
I emboldened, and believe, in case Van is reading.Is the Holy Spirit the pounds he gave his servants and said occupy til I come?
And it came to pass, that when he was returned, having received the kingdom, then he commanded these servants to be called unto him, to whom he had given the money, that he might know how much every man had gained by trading. Then came the first, saying, Lord, thy pound hath gained ten pounds. And he said unto him, Well, thou good servant: because thou hast been faithful in a very little, have thou authority over ten cities. Luke 19:15-17
When will they be given authority to rule and will they be ruling without heads?
Acts 15:16 After this. After these things. I will return. "After this," is not a quote from Amos 9:11. Verse 15 states the scriptures agree with God taking out of the nations a people for his name sake, giving them the Holy Spirit, occupy til I come. Verse 16 IMHO states after this taking out, I will return.
How do you understand the the parable of Luke 19:11 relative to yours, I quoted?
Rev 5:10 And hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.
Been a long thousand years.
What about:
7 And when the thousand years are expired, Satan shall be loosed out of his prison,
8 And shall go out to deceive the nations which are in the four quarters of the earth, Gog and Magog, to gather them together to battle: the number of whom is as the sand of the sea.
9 And they went up on the breadth of the earth, and compassed the camp of the saints about, and the beloved city: and fire came down from God out of heaven, and devoured them.
10 And the devil that deceived them was cast into the lake of fire and brimstone, where the beast and the false prophet are, and shall be tormented day and night for ever and ever.
Have all these events above happened?
His reign will be over the earth.
9 And the LORD shall be king over all the earth: in that day shall there be one LORD, and his name one.
10 All the land shall be turned as a plain from Geba to Rimmon south of Jerusalem: and it shall be lifted up, and inhabited in her place, from Benjamin's gate unto the place of the first gate, unto the corner gate, and from the tower of Hananeel unto the king's winepresses.
11 And men shall dwell in it, and there shall be no more utter destruction; but Jerusalem shall be safely inhabited.
12 And this shall be the plague wherewith the LORD will smite all the people that have fought against Jerusalem; Their flesh shall consume away while they stand upon their feet, and their eyes shall consume away in their holes, and their tongue shall consume away in their mouth.
...
16 And it shall come to pass, that every one that is left of all the nations which came against Jerusalem shall even go up from year to year to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, and to keep the feast of tabernacles.
17 And it shall be, that whoso will not come up of all the families of the earth unto Jerusalem to worship the King, the LORD of hosts, even upon them shall be no rain.
18 And if the family of Egypt go not up, and come not, that have no rain; there shall be the plague, wherewith the LORD will smite the heathen that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
19 This shall be the punishment of Egypt, and the punishment of all nations that come not up to keep the feast of tabernacles.
20 In that day shall there be upon the bells of the horses, HOLINESS UNTO THE LORD; and the pots in the LORD'S house shall be like the bowls before the altar.
21 Yea, every pot in Jerusalem and in Judah shall be holiness unto the LORD of hosts: and all they that sacrifice shall come and take of them, and seethe therein: and in that day there shall be no more the Canaanite in the house of the LORD of hosts.
HankD
"John of Japan,
Let me answer you here using your own method....
I said;
Hosea does not mention the Abrahamic covenant.....the word covenant is not used there...so according to you we cannot use it....your point is dead in the water....
Where does Genesis use the the words;
"dispensation of innocence"
"dispensation of conscience"
"dispensation of human government"
Your point and teaching of dispensation is dead in the water unless you can show this in scripture......
You do this once again.....Hosea did not mention covenant either...
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you
I can to anyone who is not shielded from the truth by a false system.
I believe God meant what He said in Isa.49...The Servant of the Lord is the true Israel, the True Covenant Son.
3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.
4 Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the Lord, and my work with my God.
5 And now, saith the Lord that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the Lord, and my God shall be my strength.
6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
7 Thus saith the Lord, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the Lord that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.
8 Thus saith the Lord, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;
9 That thou mayest say to the prisoners, Go forth; to them that are in darkness, Shew yourselves. They shall feed in the ways, and their pastures shall be in all high places.
10 They shall not hunger nor thirst; neither shall the heat nor sun smite them: for he that hath mercy on them shall lead them, even by the springs of water shall he guide them.
11 And I will make all my mountains a way, and my highways shall be exalted.
Let me answer you here using your own method....
I said;
Hosea does not mention the Abrahamic covenant.....the word covenant is not used there...so according to you we cannot use it....your point is dead in the water....
Where does Genesis use the the words;
"dispensation of innocence"
"dispensation of conscience"
"dispensation of human government"
Your point and teaching of dispensation is dead in the water unless you can show this in scripture......
(unless you think God's covenant with the animals in v. 18 is the new covenant). 1 Peter 2:10 also does not mention the new covenant ("covenant" appears nowhere in Peter),
You do this once again.....Hosea did not mention covenant either...
No... I am following the teaching of the Spirit by Paul;
22 What if God, willing to shew his wrath, and to make his power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath fitted to destruction:
23 And that he might make known the riches of his glory on the vessels of mercy, which he had afore prepared unto glory,
24 Even us, whom he hath called, not of the Jews only, but also of the Gentiles?
25 As he saith also in Osee, I will call them my people, which were not my people; and her beloved, which was not beloved.
26 And it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people; there shall they be called the children of the living God.
27 Esaias also crieth concerning Israel, Though the number of the children of Israel be as the sand of the sea, a remnant shall be saved:
28 For he will finish the work, and cut it short in righteousness: because a short work will the Lord make upon the earth.
29 And as Esaias said before, Except the Lord of Sabaoth had left us a seed, we had been as Sodoma, and been made like unto Gomorrha.
30 What shall we say then? That the Gentiles, which followed not after righteousness, have attained to righteousness, even the righteousness which is of faith.
31 But Israel, which followed after the law of righteousness, hath not attained to the law of righteousness.
32 Wherefore? Because they sought it not by faith, but as it were by the works of the law. For they stumbled at that stumblingstone;
33 As it is written, Behold, I lay in Sion a stumblingstone and rock of offence: and whosoever believeth on him shall not be ashamed.
Jesus is the True Israel and us in Him.Not all Israel is of Israel.....you do not seem to accept that.
20 Likewise also the cup after supper, saying, This cup is the new testament in my blood, which is shed for you
I can to anyone who is not shielded from the truth by a false system.
I believe God meant what He said in Isa.49...The Servant of the Lord is the true Israel, the True Covenant Son.
3 And said unto me, Thou art my servant, O Israel, in whom I will be glorified.
4 Then I said, I have laboured in vain, I have spent my strength for nought, and in vain: yet surely my judgment is with the Lord, and my work with my God.
5 And now, saith the Lord that formed me from the womb to be his servant, to bring Jacob again to him, Though Israel be not gathered, yet shall I be glorious in the eyes of the Lord, and my God shall be my strength.
6 And he said, It is a light thing that thou shouldest be my servant to raise up the tribes of Jacob, and to restore the preserved of Israel: I will also give thee for a light to the Gentiles, that thou mayest be my salvation unto the end of the earth.
7 Thus saith the Lord, the Redeemer of Israel, and his Holy One, to him whom man despiseth, to him whom the nation abhorreth, to a servant of rulers, Kings shall see and arise, princes also shall worship, because of the Lord that is faithful, and the Holy One of Israel, and he shall choose thee.
8 Thus saith the Lord, In an acceptable time have I heard thee, and in a day of salvation have I helped thee: and I will preserve thee, and give thee for a covenant of the people, to establish the earth, to cause to inherit the desolate heritages;
9 That thou mayest say to the prisoners, Go forth; to them that are in darkness, Shew yourselves. They shall feed in the ways, and their pastures shall be in all high places.
10 They shall not hunger nor thirst; neither shall the heat nor sun smite them: for he that hath mercy on them shall lead them, even by the springs of water shall he guide them.
11 And I will make all my mountains a way, and my highways shall be exalted.
Methinks all need to go back and read Hosea again and determine just who were among the gentiles, that at one time had the law of righteousness, yet had cast away that righteousness some time back but were now being declared righteous by that, which is of faith?
How does that come about? Well IMO Christ died for their sins, Christ was raised from the dead, received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, to be shed forth. Then:
Acts 15:14 Simeon did declare how at first God did look after to take out of the nations a people for His name, ----- What did Simon say? Verse's 7,8,9 and there having been much disputing, Peter having risen up said unto them, 'Men, brethren, ye know that from former days, God among us did make choice, through my mouth, for the nations to hear the word of the good news, and to believe; and the heart-knowing God did bare them testimony, having given to them the Holy Spirit, even as also to us, and did put no difference also between us and them, by the faith having purified their hearts;
What purified them? What unleavened them? Something they conceived with their little minds of the obedience of faith, of Jesus of Nazareth? The shedding of his life giving blood. Lev. 17:11
Was God calling someone whom he had not known from among the nations or was he calling out from among the nations those he had foreknown but declared not my people. ---- Amos 3:1,2 Hear this word that the LORD hath spoken against you, O children of Israel, against the whole family which I brought up from the land of Egypt, saying, You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.
Read Hosea 1:4-10 And the LORD said unto him, Call his name Jezreel; for yet a little while, and I will avenge the blood of Jezreel upon the house of Jehu, and will cause to cease the kingdom of the house of Israel. And it shall come to pass at that day, that I will break the bow of Israel in the valley of Jezreel. And she conceived again, and bare a daughter. And Godsaid unto him, Call her name Loruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away. But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen. Now when she had weaned Loruhamah, she conceived, and bare a son. Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God. Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them,Ye are the sons of the living God.
With 1 Kings 18:37 Hear me, O LORD, hear me, that this people may know that thou art the LORD God, and that thou hast turned their heart back again. ----- Make no doubt about it is all of God.
With Jer 3:14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:.
How does that come about? Well IMO Christ died for their sins, Christ was raised from the dead, received of the Father the promise of the Holy Spirit, to be shed forth. Then:
Acts 15:14 Simeon did declare how at first God did look after to take out of the nations a people for His name, ----- What did Simon say?
Verse's 7,8,9 and there having been much disputing, Peter having risen up said unto them, 'Men, brethren, ye know that from former days, God among us did make choice, through my mouth, for the nations to hear the word of the good news, and to believe; and the heart-knowing God did bare them testimony, having given to them the Holy Spirit, even as also to us, and did put no difference also between us and them, by the faith having purified their hearts;What purified them? What unleavened them? Something they conceived with their little minds of the obedience of faith, of Jesus of Nazareth? The shedding of his life giving blood. Lev. 17:11
Was God calling someone whom he had not known from among the nations or was he calling out from among the nations those he had foreknown but declared not my people. ---- Amos 3:1,2 Hear this word that the LORD hath spoken against you, O children of Israel, against the whole family which I brought up from the land of Egypt, saying, You only have I known of all the families of the earth: therefore I will punish you for all your iniquities.
Read Hosea 1:4-10 And the LORD said unto him, Call his name Jezreel; for yet a little while, and I will avenge the blood of Jezreel upon the house of Jehu, and will cause to cease the kingdom of the house of Israel. And it shall come to pass at that day, that I will break the bow of Israel in the valley of Jezreel. And she conceived again, and bare a daughter. And Godsaid unto him, Call her name Loruhamah: for I will no more have mercy upon the house of Israel; but I will utterly take them away. But I will have mercy upon the house of Judah, and will save them by the LORD their God, and will not save them by bow, nor by sword, nor by battle, by horses, nor by horsemen. Now when she had weaned Loruhamah, she conceived, and bare a son. Then said God, Call his name Loammi: for ye are not my people, and I will not be your God. Yet the number of the children of Israel shall be as the sand of the sea, which cannot be measured nor numbered; and it shall come to pass, that in the place where it was said unto them, Ye are not my people, there it shall be said unto them,Ye are the sons of the living God.
With 1 Kings 18:37 Hear me, O LORD, hear me, that this people may know that thou art the LORD God, and that thou hast turned their heart back again. ----- Make no doubt about it is all of God.
With Jer 3:14 Turn, O backsliding children, saith the LORD; for I am married unto you: and I will take you one of a city, and two of a family, and I will bring you to Zion:.
Hosea 1:10--"sand of the sea," a direct quote from the Abrahamic Covenant in Gen. 32:12. The connection could not be more obvious, and the lack of connection to the new covenant could also not be more obvious. Exegete, man exegete.
And of course I could easily defend this--but I am very short on time. And besides, it might be taken as an attempt to divert attention from your own OP which you are trying to prove.
And the rest of your post is simply listing Scripture, which is no argument unless you exegete it. However, I do give you credit for pointing out the term "new testament," which in my hurry I forgot. The Greek is the same for covenant and testament: diatheke. I'll do some more study on that when I get the chance, but I have to teach four hours today, and have two more quizzes to make and a test to make by Friday.
Sayonara.
Very weak challenge icon.
Weak but a challenge nonetheless and I've used it myself
However, as a general principle this criteria would blow away many man made re-wordings of scripture dogma.
e.g. TULIP.
Where are ANY of the acrostic values found anywhere in scripture.
"Total depravity" - These words together are not found in the bible.
"Unconditional Election" ditto.
...
As a matter of fact a KJV scan of the word "Trinity" yields 0 results.
HankD
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That is my exact point Hank.....Very weak challenge icon.
Weak but a challenge nonetheless and I've used it myself
However, as a general principle this criteria would blow away many man made re-wordings of scripture dogma.
e.g. TULIP.
Where are ANY of the acrostic values found anywhere in scripture.
"Total depravity" - These words together are not found in the bible.
"Unconditional Election" ditto.
...
As a matter of fact a KJV scan of the word "Trinity" yields 0 results.
HankD
JOJ. Said that Peter did not use the word covenant.
I thought such statements are foolish so I turned the table on him.
Notice he suggests the sand of the sea is an obvious reference to the Abrahamic. Covenant In Hosea. ...he allows for that....yet when I use the language from Hosea he suggests it is not covenant language.
So we have come full circleThat is my exact point Hank.....
JOJ. Said that Peter did not use the word covenant.
I thought such statements are foolish so I turned the table on him.
Notice he suggests the sand of the sea is an obvious reference to the Abrahamic. Covenant In Hosea. ...he allows for that....yet when I use the language from Hosea he suggests it is not covenant language.
HankD
Right, because the language from Hosea is not quoted in the NT, nor is it a representation of anything that any passage says about the new covenant/testament. Your view verges on theological wishful thinking, not careful exegesis.That is my exact point Hank.....
JOJ. Said that Peter did not use the word covenant.
I thought such statements are foolish so I turned the table on him.
Notice he suggests the sand of the sea is an obvious reference to the Abrahamic. Covenant In Hosea. ...he allows for that....yet when I use the language from Hosea he suggests it is not covenant language.
And for the record, I did not say that Hosea was "not covenant language." I challenged you to prove the connection, which you have not done. Exegete, man, exegete!
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