Another thought concerning the blood. Scriptural or not?

[HankD]

Hi HankD, eternity refers to no beginning and no end. Duration is in view. Not the absence of sequence, or duration. You offered no scripture and claimed science supported your view. Physical time was created by God, that is science, but science does not address whether the spiritual realm is timeless or not.

The mistranslation refers to Revelation 13:8 and the claim Christ was slain from the foundation of the world. Here is the NET footnote

27tn The prepositional phrase “since the foundation of the world” is traditionally translated as a modifier of the immediately preceding phrase in the Greek text, “the Lamb who was killed” (so also G. B. Caird, Revelation [HNTC], 168), but it is more likely that the phrase “since the foundation of the world” modifies the verb “written” (as translated above). Confirmation of this can be found in Rev 17:8 where the phrase “written in the book of life since the foundation of the world” occurs with no ambiguity.​

OK, I will cede to the possibility of your great research conclusion above - Revelation 13:8 as compared to Revelation 17:8 - good point, although I don't believe it is an unshakeable conclusion as both these events were quite possibly simultaneous (yes a time stream qualifying word - sorry) or sequential (again a time continuum word) He was slain from before the foundation of the world and our names were incorporated into the Lamb's book of life in a moment at the beginning of the time continuum after all a book is a created entity

That does leave us with other passages like

1 Peter 1
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

John 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

Again our sole definition of time is based upon the sidereal solar day.

Here is a question concerning John 17:24 to illustrate the timelessness (or eternality Of Jesus Christ aka Ho Logos - The second person of the Trinity).

For how many years did the Father love the Son before the creation?
There is no answer in terms of time - the answer is outside of the definition of time based upon the creation.

There was no earth, no sun, no days, years, etc and as Tom pointed out no eternity past. Just timeless eternity.

There is indeed one scripture that assigns endlessness in terms of time:

Hebrews 7:3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

This IMO refers to His immortality which is different than His eternality.

There are many things in the Christian belief system which have to be determined from a logical conclusion based upon scriptural assumptions. e.g. the Trinity.

Jesus said the father and I are one. The assumption is that the father and the son are not one and the same person but are two distinct persons (actually three distinct persons) in one divine essence.

So as with John 17:24 If Jesus existed before the creation then He is/was timeless outside of God's creation and an uncreated being and therefore eternal unless we hold to the Arian doctrine that Jesus (Ho Logos) was part of the creation.

I know you don't believe that.

Also the scripture on occasion will meet us where we live and speak in terms we understand like the "setting" of the sun.

Anyway I'm through - take the last word if you wish.

HankD

 

[Van]

Hi HankD, I think you are paddling up a river in Egypt, De Nile.

1) No verse says Christ was slain before the foundation of the world. The translations that translate apo as before are corrupt. This bogus translation is agenda driven. There is no possibility that it is correct.

2) 1 Peter 1:20 says Christ was known before creation. That fact is non-germane and not in dispute. All the verses that actually say before the foundation of the world, refer to before creation.

3) The bible speaks of days (creation week days) before the creation of the sun. Therefore the claim that time did not exist in scripture before the creation of the sun is bogus.

4) The bible does not teach God loved the Son for a number of years before creation. You are making an argument from silence. God is eternal, both the Father and the Son. Thus God's love for the Son has no beginning. You see, two can play your game.

I will let scripture have the last word, people in heaven asked "how long" indicating people in heaven are aware of duration, the passage of (spiritual) time.

Returning to topic - when was our sin burden removed? It was removed when God transferred us into Christ, in Him is the redemption in Him Blood. In Him we undergo the circumcision of Christ. In Him we undergo the washing of regeneration. God is reconciling the world to Himself, one sinner at a time. In Christ - reconciled, not in Christ - not reconciled.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Revelation 13:8 And all that dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written in the book of life of the Lamb slain from the foundation of the world.

It's hard to know exactly what the argument is on this thread since I have Van firmly on 'ignore' and no intention of changing that, but it is possible to translate Rev. 13:8 like this: 'And all who dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written from the foundation of the earth in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.' I don't say that's a better translation in the light of 1 Peter 1:19-20, but it is possible.

 

[TCassidy]

'And all who dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written from the foundation of the earth in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.'

When a word in Greek can have more than one antecedent that fits CNG, the rule of thumb is to use the closest antecedent. In this case "slain" is closer than "written" and thus avoids an unnecessary complication in the reading.

 

[Van]

Doctor Wallace has provided ample support for the proper translations. Efforts to discount the analysis are agenda driven. See, NET, NASB and LEB.

Returning to topic, our sin burden is removed when God transfers us into Christ where we undergo the circumcision of Christ and the washing of regeneration.

 

[Iconoclast]

Doctor Wallace has provided ample support for the proper translations. Efforts to discount the analysis are agenda driven. See, NET, NASB and LEB.

Returning to topic, our sin burden is removed when God transfers us into Christ where we undergo the circumcision of Christ and the washing of regeneration.

oh no.....you are not doing the "in the greek "thing again are you

 

[rsr]

I know I'm going to regret this, Van, because it's your hobbyhorse, but please:

1. Give your translation of Revelation 13:8, and

2. Explain what difference your translation makes in understanding the verse.

 

[percho]

1 Peter 1:18-20 What was known, of Christ, before the foundation of the world was, his blood would be the redeeming factor. It was known before the foundation of the world that the Christ would die, pour out his soul unto death.

What Van is saying took place before or from the foundation of the world, was that names were written in the book of life. Which is true, however if at that time it wasn't determined for the Christ to be slain there would be no need to write any names in a book.

 

[rsr]

No fair.

 

[Van]

1. Give your translation of Revelation 13:8, and
2. Explain what difference your translation makes in understanding the verse.

1) Lets go with the NET translation, "and all those who live on the earth will worship the beast,26 everyone whose name has not been written since the foundation of the world in the book of life belonging to the Lamb who was killed.

2) Christ was slain about 4000 years ago, not before creation. When God transfers us spiritually into Christ, that is when our name is written in the Lamb's book of life. The Calvinist hacks rewrite this verse to say before the foundation to support the myth that individuals were chosen before creation. However, since the names are written after or from or since creation, that supports that individuals are chosen not before but after creation, when God credits their faith as righteousness.

 

[TCassidy]

Revelation 13:8 καὶ προσκυνήσουσιν αὐτὸν πάντες οἱ κατοικοῦντες ἐπὶ τῆς γῆς, ὧν οὐ γέγραπται τὸ ὄνομα ἐν τῷ βιβλίῳ τῆς ζωῆς τοῦ ἀρνίου τοῦ ἐσφαγμένου ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου.

Couldn't be more clear. The antecedent is εσφαγμενου not γεγραπται.

What makes more sense? To use the word immediately before the clause in question, ἀπὸ καταβολῆς κόσμου, or a word removed from the clause by 11 words intervening?

Let's see what the modern Greek New Testament says. This is the bible read by the people who speak, read, and write Greek today as their native language.

"Και θελουσι προσκυνησει αυτο παντες οι κατοικουντες επι της γης, των οποιων τα ονοματα δεν εγραφησαν εν τω βιβλιω της ζωης του Αρνιου του εσφαγμενου απο καταβολης κοσμου."

Oh! Look! "The Lamb killed from the down-laying of the world!"

And, of course, the Jews were the ones intimately familiar with the sacrifice of the pascal lamb. Let's see how the verse reads in the modern Hebrew bible.

"וישתחוו לה כל ישבי הארץ אשר לא נכתבו שמותם בספר החיים אשר לשה הטבוח מיום הוסד תבל׃"

And there you have it again. "The Lamb killed from the founding of the world."

And what says the greatest Greek scholar of modern times (1750-present)? (With the very possible exception of my friend Dr. Maurice Robinson.)

Dr. A. T. Robertson, Wake Forest (N. C.) College (M. A., 1885) and the Southern Baptist Theological Seminary (SBTS), Louisville, Kentucky (Th. M., 1888), where he was professor of New Testament interpretation and Greek for the rest of his life.

Author of Word Pictures in the New Testament and A Grammar of the Greek New Testament in Light of Historical Research, which are still used as textooks in Seminaries today.

What says A.T. Robertson regarding the antecedent of απο "καταβολης κοσμου"? Robertson says "the most natural use is with εσφαγμενου."

Case closed.

 

[HankD]

It is very very difficult for us, the members of the human race, limited as we are in this body of mortal flesh to think outside the time stream box.

One day we will have His perfect sight fulfilling the promise of eternal life.

John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is (timeless-eternal).


HankD

 

[HankD]

I believe this is in reality a conflict of theological views - you know C vs A.

So why not forget the views of mortal men and go with the raw meaning of the text.

We we written in the lambs book of life from the beginning (even before) the creation of the world Who was also slain from that reference point.

I am not a calvinist.
I am not arminian.

But, with God all things are possible.

HankD

 

[TCassidy]

It is very very difficult for us, the members of the human race, limited as we are in this body of mortal flesh to think outside the time stream box.

I agree. It is impossible for our finite minds to comprehend the infinite. It is equally impossible for our time-limited minds to comprehend the timelessness of eternity.

Our very thought processes are sequential and in order to try to understand eternity we would have to think outside our established thought processes, something we cannot, in this life, do.

The best illustration I have come across is that of God sitting at a table. There is a yard stick lying on the table in front of Him.

The yard stick represents time. The past is to His left and the future is to his right on the yard stick.

God can, from where He is sitting, reach out and touch any part of the time line. He can reach to his left and touch Adam at 1 inch on the yard stick. At the same time (yes, yes, I know!) he can reach out with his right hand and touch the consummation of the age at the 36 inch mark.

When Jesus was crucified, in time, He (Jesus) was still limited by His having emptied Himself of some of the Divine prerogatives. But the moment He stepped back into eternity His nail pierced hands and feet, and the blood of His sacrifice now existed in eternity and God could dip His finger in the blood of the Lamb and apply it to His left, to Adam, or to His right, to the saints at the time of the consummation of the age.

So, the Lamb was already slain before the foundation of the world was laid because Jesus, in eternity, was no longer limited by time, sequence, or duration. He transcends time. He is greater than time. And He is unlimited by time. He is far too big to be contained by time. He is the All in All.

 

[TCassidy]

I believe this is in reality a conflict of theological views - you know C vs A.

I am not sure I see it as Augustinianism (Monergism) verses Pelagianism or Semi-Pelagianism (Synergism). I would suspect that even our Semi-Pelagian brothers and sisters realize the Lamb's Book of Life exists in eternity and therefore the names of the redeemed are written down in eternity.

I would think everyone would acknowledge that election is a real thing and is taught in the bible. The difference, as I understand it, is the cause of election. Why is one name in the Lamb's Book of Life and another is not?

The Augustinian (Monergist) would say the elect were elected according to the good pleasure of God's Sovereign will.

The Semi-Pelagian (Synergist) would say the elect were elected according to the foreknowledge of God.

Neither of those views would deny the names in the Lamb's Book of Life have been so written for all eternity.

 

[Iconoclast]

1) Lets go with the NET translation, "and all those who live on the earth will worship the beast,26 everyone whose name has not been written since the foundation of the world in the book of life belonging to the Lamb who was killed.

2) Christ was slain about 4000 years ago, not before creation. When God transfers us spiritually into Christ, that is when our name is written in the Lamb's book of life. The Calvinist hacks rewrite this verse to say before the foundation to support the myth that individuals were chosen before creation. However, since the names are written after or from or since creation, that supports that individuals are chosen not before but after creation, when God credits their faith as righteousness.

New day......same error posted yet again.....
Christ slain in 2000bc?
God credits man?
Maybe when the cows come home in fantasyland.

 

[HankD]

I am not sure I see it as Augustinianism (Monergism) verses Pelagianism or Semi-Pelagianism (Synergism). I would suspect that even our Semi-Pelagian brothers and sisters realize the Lamb's Book of Life exists in eternity and therefore the names of the redeemed are written down in eternity.

I would think everyone would acknowledge that election is a real thing and is taught in the bible. The difference, as I understand it, is the cause of election. Why is one name in the Lamb's Book of Life and another is not?

The Augustinian (Monergist) would say the elect were elected according to the good pleasure of God's Sovereign will.

The Semi-Pelagian (Synergist) would say the elect were elected according to the foreknowledge of God.

Neither of those views would deny the names in the Lamb's Book of Life have been so written for all eternity.

All true. I was expressing my own personal feelings.


HankD

 

[Martin Marprelate]

God chose (elected) His people in Christ before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4; 2 Thessalonians 2:13). It is logical that our names were written in the Book of Life at that point, and that, in the mind of God at least, Christ was crucified at that time. To suggest that it happened in 2,000BC is bizarre.

I think TCassidy's explanation in post #34 is quite acceptable.

 

[HankD]

Yes, Dr Tom has a way with words and a fair view of others interpretation of difficult concepts.

HankD

 

[Yeshua1]

God chose (elected) His people in Christ before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4; 2 Thessalonians 2:13). It is logical that our names were written in the Book of Life at that point, and that, in the mind of God at least, Christ was crucified at that time. To suggest that it happened in 2,000BC is bizarre.

I think TCassidy's explanation in post #34 is quite acceptable.

From the viewpoint of God, we have been saved in jesus from Eternity Past, but in order to have that really come to pass in history, Jesus came/died/rose again, and we had to put faith in Him!