Featured Another thought concerning the blood. Scriptural or not?

OK, I will cede to the possibility of your great research conclusion above - Revelation 13:8 as compared to Revelation 17:8 - good point, although I don't believe it is an unshakeable conclusion as both these events were quite possibly simultaneous (yes a time stream qualifying word - sorry) or sequential (again a time continuum word) He was slain from before the foundation of the world and our names were incorporated into the Lamb's book of life in a moment at the beginning of the time continuum after all a book is a created entity

That does leave us with other passages like

1 Peter 1
18 Forasmuch as ye know that ye were not redeemed with corruptible things, as silver and gold, from your vain conversation received by tradition from your fathers;
19 But with the precious blood of Christ, as of a lamb without blemish and without spot:
20 Who verily was foreordained before the foundation of the world, but was manifest in these last times for you,

John 17:24 Father, I will that they also, whom thou hast given me, be with me where I am; that they may behold my glory, which thou hast given me: for thou lovedst me before the foundation of the world.

Again our sole definition of time is based upon the sidereal solar day.

Here is a question concerning John 17:24 to illustrate the timelessness (or eternality Of Jesus Christ aka Ho Logos - The second person of the Trinity).

For how many years did the Father love the Son before the creation?
There is no answer in terms of time - the answer is outside of the definition of time based upon the creation.

There was no earth, no sun, no days, years, etc and as Tom pointed out no eternity past. Just timeless eternity.

There is indeed one scripture that assigns endlessness in terms of time:

Hebrews 7:3 Without father, without mother, without descent, having neither beginning of days, nor end of life; but made like unto the Son of God; abideth a priest continually.

This IMO refers to His immortality which is different than His eternality.

There are many things in the Christian belief system which have to be determined from a logical conclusion based upon scriptural assumptions. e.g. the Trinity.

Jesus said the father and I are one. The assumption is that the father and the son are not one and the same person but are two distinct persons (actually three distinct persons) in one divine essence.

So as with John 17:24 If Jesus existed before the creation then He is/was timeless outside of God's creation and an uncreated being and therefore eternal unless we hold to the Arian doctrine that Jesus (Ho Logos) was part of the creation.

I know you don't believe that.

Also the scripture on occasion will meet us where we live and speak in terms we understand like the "setting" of the sun.

Anyway I'm through - take the last word if you wish.

HankD

 

Hi HankD, I think you are paddling up a river in Egypt, De Nile.

1) No verse says Christ was slain before the foundation of the world. The translations that translate apo as before are corrupt. This bogus translation is agenda driven. There is no possibility that it is correct.

2) 1 Peter 1:20 says Christ was known before creation. That fact is non-germane and not in dispute. All the verses that actually say before the foundation of the world, refer to before creation.

3) The bible speaks of days (creation week days) before the creation of the sun. Therefore the claim that time did not exist in scripture before the creation of the sun is bogus.

4) The bible does not teach God loved the Son for a number of years before creation. You are making an argument from silence. God is eternal, both the Father and the Son. Thus God's love for the Son has no beginning. You see, two can play your game.

I will let scripture have the last word, people in heaven asked "how long" indicating people in heaven are aware of duration, the passage of (spiritual) time.

Returning to topic - when was our sin burden removed? It was removed when God transferred us into Christ, in Him is the redemption in Him Blood. In Him we undergo the circumcision of Christ. In Him we undergo the washing of regeneration. God is reconciling the world to Himself, one sinner at a time. In Christ - reconciled, not in Christ - not reconciled.

 

It's hard to know exactly what the argument is on this thread since I have Van firmly on 'ignore' and no intention of changing that, but it is possible to translate Rev. 13:8 like this: 'And all who dwell upon the earth shall worship him, whose names are not written from the foundation of the earth in the book of life of the Lamb who was slain.' I don't say that's a better translation in the light of 1 Peter 1:19-20, but it is possible.

 

Doctor Wallace has provided ample support for the proper translations. Efforts to discount the analysis are agenda driven. See, NET, NASB and LEB.

Returning to topic, our sin burden is removed when God transfers us into Christ where we undergo the circumcision of Christ and the washing of regeneration.

 

oh no.....you are not doing the "in the greek "thing again are you

 

1) Lets go with the NET translation, "and all those who live on the earth will worship the beast,26 everyone whose name has not been written since the foundation of the world in the book of life belonging to the Lamb who was killed.

2) Christ was slain about 4000 years ago, not before creation. When God transfers us spiritually into Christ, that is when our name is written in the Lamb's book of life. The Calvinist hacks rewrite this verse to say before the foundation to support the myth that individuals were chosen before creation. However, since the names are written after or from or since creation, that supports that individuals are chosen not before but after creation, when God credits their faith as righteousness.

 

It is very very difficult for us, the members of the human race, limited as we are in this body of mortal flesh to think outside the time stream box.

One day we will have His perfect sight fulfilling the promise of eternal life.

John 3:2 Beloved, now are we the sons of God, and it doth not yet appear what we shall be: but we know that, when he shall appear, we shall be like him; for we shall see him as he is (timeless-eternal).


HankD

 

I believe this is in reality a conflict of theological views - you know C vs A.

So why not forget the views of mortal men and go with the raw meaning of the text.

We we written in the lambs book of life from the beginning (even before) the creation of the world Who was also slain from that reference point.

I am not a calvinist.
I am not arminian.

But, with God all things are possible.

HankD

 

New day......same error posted yet again.....
Christ slain in 2000bc?
God credits man?
Maybe when the cows come home in fantasyland.

 

All true. I was expressing my own personal feelings.


HankD

 

God chose (elected) His people in Christ before the foundation of the world (Ephesians 1:4; 2 Thessalonians 2:13). It is logical that our names were written in the Book of Life at that point, and that, in the mind of God at least, Christ was crucified at that time. To suggest that it happened in 2,000BC is bizarre.

I think TCassidy's explanation in post #34 is quite acceptable.

 

Yes, Dr Tom has a way with words and a fair view of others interpretation of difficult concepts.

HankD

 

From the viewpoint of God, we have been saved in jesus from Eternity Past, but in order to have that really come to pass in history, Jesus came/died/rose again, and we had to put faith in Him!