Union With Christ

[The Biblicist]

The OP spoke to this;
from post #1;
Good works will follow all true believers.

no problem with that as long as there is no quantitative standard or manifest quantitative standard of good works.

The Scriptures clearly teach that every true Christian has been brought into spiritual union with Christ,

and that this vital relationship is by sovereign grace alone, was determined in eternity, is necessarily evidenced in the life, and will infallibly be consummated in glory. The believer’s union with Christ is thus the biblical reality that forms “the central truth of all theology and all religion”

That is precisely why it is a complete perversion of this truth to make it inseparable from ANY CONCEPT of the church as the church "foundation" is time fixed after malichi. To confuse the church with the family or kingdom is to pervert the gospel of Jesus Christ into a church salvation doctrine. Here is where you confuse the METAPHOR with the REALITY and the result is Romanism church salvation.

Here it answers the question by looking at the negative...
• This truth forms the eternal and objective basis for the believer’s experience, confidence and hope.

Everything was good until the word "and hope" was added as perservance in good work works is no part of our "hope" as that is wholly confined to Christ's perservance in good works IN OUR BEHALF while in the flesh which satisfied all legal demands against us.

Herein is the only scriptural basis for a true, biblical assurance of salvation.

Amen! The key word here is "assurance."

To deny this revealed, glorious truth is to base one’s salvation on an experience, on personal faithfulness, or on adherence to a subjective, legalistic system. In the believer’s union with Christ is revealed the glory of free and sovereign grace in its fullness

To deny what glorious truth? The truth of spiritual union? If that is the truth intended then Amen! If that glorious truth is perservance in good works in any manifest quantitative measurement than that is error. Spiritual union is salvation and everything prior to spiritual union that characterizes the eternal purpose of God is expressed in spiritual union and everything that follows spiritual union is the manifest conclusion of God's eternal purpose and grace. That is why it is such a disgrace to the glory of God to confuse the church with spiritual union.

 

[The Biblicist]

The Biblicist

?

Jesus was not buried in water.

Jesus was buried in water by John the Baptist which Jesus said fulfilled all righteousness pointing to his ultimate death and burial and resurrection that actually obtained salvation for his elect.

The likeness speaks of the identification we have with Jesus in his death and being raised from the dead.

Oxymoronic! "identification" does not mean "likeness." You are teaching this baptism TO BE the actual literal means for spiritual union with his death and burial and resurrection not our "LIKENESS" with his death, burial and resurrection.

You are failing to understand baptism in this context. The context is shall we continue in sin that grace may abound. The PUBLIC identification with Christ in the LIKENESS of his death burial and resurrection by WATER baptism answers this question decisively. In water baptism there is a PUBLIC identification with the death of the Christ with regard to sin openly declaring to all that sin has not merely been paid in full by Christ but its finality is "buried" with Christ having no more authority over us. Moreover, in PUBLIC identification with Christ in the LIKENESS of his resurrection there is a open and clear and public declaration that we are ALIVE in Christ. Thus in baptism there is the UNION of the doctrine of justification and regeneration SYBMOLICALLY declared.

This text does not teach water regeneration in any LITERAL sense but it does teach it with regard to "LIKENESS" as it openly and publicly DECLARES OUR IDENTITY WITH A LIVING CHRIST.

In the PUBLIC VISIBLE ACT OF WATER BAPTISM justification by faith without works is declared by identification with Christ's in the LIKENESS of his death and burial through baptism, while at the very same time REGENERATION THAT PRODUCES good works is declared by our identification with the LIKENESS of his resurrection UNTO LIFE.

This is why many ancient Christians would remove their old clothing before entering into the waters of baptism and then upon exiting the water would put on NEW CLOTHES to further symbolize what baptism declared.

Moreover, there is no "baptism" that literally unites us with Christ. Water baptism does not. The baptism in the Spirit CANNOT as it is time fixed unless you want to teach all before Pentecost are OUTSIDE of Christ spiritually??????

 

[Van]

Icon says God does not transfer anyone into Christ. He says no one (knowing he claims what everyone thinks) believes Colossians 1:13-14. Pay no attention to those that nullify scripture in favor of copy and paste bogus nonsense. Of course God puts us into Christ. 1 Corinthians 1:30. And what occurs in Him? Ephesians 1:7 (1) we have redemption, (2) the forgiveness of trespasses. Compare the NLT, NIV and NASB at Philippians 2:1. Note that being "in Christ" (NASB) is rendered as "being united with Christ" NIV and "belonging to Christ" NLT.

 

[Iconoclast]

Jesus was buried in water by John the Baptist which Jesus said fulfilled all righteousness pointing to his ultimate death and burial and resurrection that actually obtained salvation for his elect.



Oxymoronic! "identification" does not mean "likeness." You are teaching this baptism TO BE the actual literal means for spiritual union with his death and burial and resurrection not our "LIKENESS" with his death, burial and resurrection.

You are failing to understand baptism in this context. The context is shall we continue in sin that grace may abound. The PUBLIC identification with Christ in the LIKENESS of his death burial and resurrection by WATER baptism answers this question decisively. In water baptism there is a PUBLIC identification with the death of the Christ with regard to sin openly declaring to all that sin has not merely been paid in full by Christ but its finality is "buried" with Christ having no more authority over us. Moreover, in PUBLIC identification with Christ in the LIKENESS of his resurrection there is a open and clear and public declaration that we are ALIVE in Christ. Thus in baptism there is the UNION of the doctrine of justification and regeneration SYBMOLICALLY declared.

This text does not teach water regeneration in any LITERAL sense but it does teach it with regard to "LIKENESS" as it openly and publicly DECLARES OUR IDENTITY WITH A LIVING CHRIST.

In the PUBLIC VISIBLE ACT OF WATER BAPTISM justification by faith without works is declared by identification with Christ's in the LIKENESS of his death and burial through baptism, while at the very same time REGENERATION THAT PRODUCES good works is declared by our identification with the LIKENESS of his resurrection UNTO LIFE.

This is why many ancient Christians would remove their old clothing before entering into the waters of baptism and then upon exiting the water would put on NEW CLOTHES to further symbolize what baptism declared.

Moreover, there is no "baptism" that literally unites us with Christ. Water baptism does not. The baptism in the Spirit CANNOT as it is time fixed unless you want to teach all before Pentecost are OUTSIDE of Christ spiritually??????

Water and outward profession.....show publicly what the unseen work of the Spirit has done in those who are actual believers. Water....does not justify, give life, or any such thing.

 

[The Biblicist]

Water....does not justify, give life, or any such thing.

If this is response to my post, then, you better read it again more slowly because I never said any such thing.

Baptism does openly and publicly identify the believer with the doctrine of justification by SYMBOLIZING the basis of justification in the death and burial of Christ. Baptism does openly and publicly identify the believer with the doctrine of regeneration by SYMBOLIZING the resurrection of Christ as his resurrection is being quickened from death.

 

[The Biblicist]

Moreover, there is no "baptism" that literally unites us with Christ. Water baptism does not. The baptism in the Spirit CANNOT as it is time fixed unless you want to teach all before Pentecost are OUTSIDE of Christ spiritually??????

No baptism of any kind LITERALLY unites the believer with Christ. The Baptism in the Spirit does not effect spiritual union with God. Hence, the only possible baptism in Romans 6 is water baptism and the only possible union with the death, burial and resurrection of Christ is SYMBOLIC or LIKENESS .

 

[Van]

Pay no attention to those that deny we have been been spiritually baptized into Christ.

For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

Those that claim they were water baptized by the Holy Spirit are out of their ever-loving minds. Christ baptizes not with water but with the Spirit.

For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. Again, those that deny our spiritual baptism into Christ are simply denying scripture.

I baptized you with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

When God transfers us spiritually into Christ we are immersed in Christ and indwelt with the Spirit of Christ such that we are in Christ and Christ is in us, behold the union of Christ.

 

[The Biblicist]

For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

Those that claim they were water baptized by the Holy Spirit are out of their ever-loving minds. Christ baptizes not with water but with the Spirit.

The Corinthinians were divided over water baptismal administrators - 1 Cor. 1:13-15

Paul's solution was that all baptismal administrators work as "one" under the leadership of the Spirit in building the temple of God at Corinth - 1 Cor. 3:5-16 - thus, "for under the leadership of one Spirit are we water baptized into one body - 1 Cor. 12:13a.

The Corinthians were divided overs spiritual gifts within the church body at Corinth - 1 Cor. 12:1

Paul's solution was that it is one and same Spirit that gifted each members according to His own purpose (1 Cor. 12:7-11) for the mutual edification of every member (1 Cor. 12:14-27) and therefore the gifts should be used in keeping the principle of love (1 Cor. 13) manifested by edification for all the church body (1 Cor. 14:1-19) without confusion and decently and in order (1 Cor. 14:23-41). Therefore every gifted member regardless of race, gender or station in life in that congregational body had been made partakers of the same Spirit for the same edifying purpose - "whether Jew or Gentile, bond or free all have been made to drink into the same Spirit"

For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ.

Once again this is water baptism, as the baptism in the Spirit had been fulfilled and at this time in Biblical history there is but "ONE baptism" and that is the "one" and only baptism promised to be administered by men to men in the great commission until the end of the age - Mt. 28:19-20.

In water baptism one PUTS ON Christ OUTWARDLY like a garment is put on OUTSIDE the physical body - IN FIGURE.

So Van, and Iconoclast are teaching ANOTHER baptism other than the only "ONE BAPTISM" which scriptures promise until the end of the age - Mt. 28:19-20 - water baptism

 

[Van]

The baptism performed by the Spirit is a spiritual baptism. Pay no attention to those who claim positional sanctification does not occur when God puts us into Christ.

For by one Spirit we were all baptized into one body, whether Jews or Greeks, whether slaves or free, and we were all made to drink of one Spirit.

Those that claim they were water baptized by the Holy Spirit are out of their ever-loving minds. Christ baptizes not with water but with the Spirit.

For all of you who were baptized into Christ have clothed yourselves with Christ. Again, those that deny our spiritual baptism into Christ are simply denying scripture.

I baptized you with water; but He will baptize you with the Holy Spirit.”

When God transfers us spiritually into Christ we are immersed in Christ and indwelt with the Spirit of Christ such that we are in Christ and Christ is in us, behold the union of Christ.

Of course God puts us into Christ. 1 Corinthians 1:30. And what occurs in Him? Ephesians 1:7 (1) we have redemption, (2) the forgiveness of trespasses. Compare the NLT, NIV and NASB at Philippians 2:1. Note that being "in Christ" (NASB) is rendered as "being united with Christ" NIV and "belonging to Christ" NLT.

 

[Van]

The only thing that happens to us in water baptism is we get wet. It is symbolic of our spiritual baptism where we were spiritually baptized into Christ's spiritual body - the one body - and made to dri9nk of one Spirit - we were sealed in Christ with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Romans 6:3-6
Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;

Pay no attention to those teaching water baptism results in new birth, removal of our body of sin,, or being united with Christ.

 

[The Biblicist]

The only thing that happens to us in water baptism is we get wet. It is symbolic of our spiritual baptism where we were spiritually baptized into Christ's spiritual body - the one body - and made to dri9nk of one Spirit - we were sealed in Christ with the indwelling of the Holy Spirit.

Romans 6:3-6
Or do you not know that all of us who have been baptized into Christ Jesus have been baptized into His death? 4 Therefore we have been buried with Him through baptism into death, so that as Christ was raised from the dead through the glory of the Father, so we too might walk in newness of life. 5 For if we have become united with Him in the likeness of His death, certainly we shall also be in the likeness of His resurrection, 6 knowing this, that our old self was crucified with Him, in order that our body of sin might be done away with, so that we would no longer be slaves to sin;

Pay no attention to those teaching water baptism results in new birth, removal of our body of sin,, or being united with Christ.

Pay no attention to those who simply repeat error instead of entering into honest debate with the evidences that disprove their parrot like mentality.

 

[Yeshua1]

good points on Sacramental Grace as a perversion of the truth of justification...

Would suggest that God elected us to be saved in Jesus, the Son died/rose again for that, and the Holy Spirit made it happen with us who were saved...

So keeping us until we die is the work and power of God himself on our behalf...

 

[Van]

Folks, just google positional sanctification. Pay no attention to those advocating unorthodox doctrine, that God does not put us spiritually into Christ, setting us apart (sanctification positionally) in Christ.

Pay no attention to those teaching water baptism results in new birth, removal of our body of sin,, or being united with Christ.

 

[Yeshua1]

Folks, just google positional sanctification. Pay no attention to those advocating unorthodox doctrine, that God does not put us spiritually into Christ, setting us apart (sanctification positionally) in Christ.

Pay no attention to those teaching water baptism results in new birth, removal of our body of sin,, or being united with Christ.

God places us into the body of Christ, spiritual union with Him when we believe in jesus, and that belief is a direct cause by God himself...

 

[Van]

LOL Yeshua1, please support your assertions with scripture. God does place us into the body of Christ. And that transfer establishes our spiritual union with Him. And this occurs when God credits our faith in Christ as righteousness. But "Irresistible Grace compelling us to 'willingly" believe is utter fiction.

 

[The Biblicist]

There is but "one baptism" not TWO and the ONLY baptism promised age long administration and it is the kind that men administer to other humans - Mt. 28:19-20. Try to disprove that fact!

Second, the baptism in the Spirit is a TIME LOCATED baptism "not many days hence" and a PLACE LOCATED baptism ("do not leave Jerusalem") and a FULFILLED baptism (Acts 11:15-16). So, now there is but "ONE baptism" - water baptism - Mt. 28:19-20

Third, spiritual union is effected by new birth BEFORE Pentecost (Jn. 3) and AFTER Pentecost (Rom. 8:7-9) not by any kind of baptism whether "spirit" or "water."

These are three facts impossible to refute IF the Bible is our final authority. Those who suggest otherwise, can only protest, deny and assert THEIR OPINIONS but cannot HONESTLY and DIRECTLY deal with these three Biblical immutable facts.

 

[Van]

LOL, they just post nonsense.

Does Jesus baptize with the Spirit? Yes
Are Christ's disciples commanded to water baptize in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit? Yes

Now count carefully. How many baptism's?

The "One" baptism into the One body is our spiritual baptism into Christ. The water baptism symbolizes the spiritual baptism. This is a core tenet of Baptists.

Standby for yet another blast of absurdity from the mistaken teachers of mistaken doctrine.

 

[The Biblicist]

LOL, they just post nonsense.

Does Jesus baptize with the Spirit? Yes
Are Christ's disciples commanded to water baptize in the Name of the Father, Son and Holy Spirit? Yes

What did I say? He can only assert his false doctrines but cannot exegetically defend them. The only absurdity is the parrot like responses.

Now count carefully

Van needs to go back to elementary and learn how to count because baptism "in water" is not baptism "In spirit" (lol, unless he is a Roman Catholic then he defines the water as "holy water."). "Now count carefully" one is "in water" while the other is "in Spirit." One and One makes TWO!

Furthermore, did not baptism in water precede baptism in spirit or was John lying (Mt. 3:11) when he placed baptism in the Spirit as FUTURE TENSE from baptism in water???? "Now count carefully" One baptism in water BEFORE and One baptism in Spirit AFTERWARDS. One and One is TWO!


Last is the administrator of water baptism the same one as baptism in the Spirit? "Now count carefully"! One is a human while the other is Christ. So One and ONE is TWO!


Standby for yet another blast of absurdity from the mistaken teachers of mistaken doctrine who cant even count small numbers.

 

[Iconoclast]

The Biblicist,

Jesus was buried in water by John the Baptist which Jesus said fulfilled all righteousness pointing to his ultimate death and burial and resurrection that actually obtained salvation for his elect.

Jesus acting as mediator and surety for all the elect identified with John's baptism of repentance. This was not Christian baptism.

Oxymoronic! "identification" does not mean "likeness." You are teaching this baptism TO BE the actual literal means for spiritual union with his death and burial and resurrection not our "LIKENESS" with his death, burial and resurrection.

Your view of ecclesiology skews your view and you do not understand this.

You are failing to understand baptism in this context

Once again it is your error that causes this lack of understanding.
.

The context is shall we continue in sin that grace may abound. The PUBLIC identification with Christ in the LIKENESS of his death burial and resurrection by WATER baptism answers this question decisively.

Complete nonsense. Being found In Christ by Spirit baptism saves.
It does not say....baptized into water...it says baptized into Christ.

water baptism there is a PUBLIC identification with the death of the Christ

It is a public confession.

with regard to sin openly declaring to all that sin has not merely been paid in full by Christ but its finality is "buried" with Christ having no more authority over us.

This sentence would be helpful to you when you struggle with the false teaching of the carnal Christian... you did not seem to believe that in that thread.

Moreover, in PUBLIC identification with Christ in the LIKENESS of his resurrection there is a open and clear and public declaration that we are ALIVE in Christ

.

The outward act of baptism points to the inner work of the Spirit.

Thus in baptism there is the UNION of the doctrine of justification and regeneration SYBMOLICALLY declared

.
This use of wording here is Ironic in that in Spirit Baptism it is a reality.
A water baptism can be a false profession, Spirit baptism does not allow for that.

This text does not teach water regeneration in any LITERAL sense but it does teach it with regard to "LIKENESS" as it openly and publicly DECLARES OUR IDENTITY WITH A LIVING CHRIST.

What is being spoken of in Romans 6 speaks of regeneration which is a Spiritual reality....that is why water is not primarily in view....

In the PUBLIC VISIBLE ACT OF WATER BAPTISM justification by faith without works is declared by identification with Christ's in the LIKENESS of his death and burial through baptism, while at the very same time REGENERATION THAT PRODUCES good works is declared by our identification with the LIKENESS of his resurrection UNTO LIFE.

Salvation is actual.....not an identification with the likeness.
We were co-crucified with Christ......it is actual.

Moreover, there is no "baptism" that literally unites us with Christ. Water baptism does not. The baptism in the Spirit CANNOT as it is time fixed unless you want to teach all before Pentecost are OUTSIDE of Christ spiritually??????

Not in your kind of church, or your understanding.....

 

[The Biblicist]

\

The Biblicist,


Jesus acting as mediator and surety for all the elect identified with John's baptism of repentance. This was not Christian baptism.


Your view of ecclesiology skews your view and you do not understand this.


Once again it is your error that causes this lack of understanding.
.
Complete nonsense. Being found In Christ by Spirit baptism saves.
It does not say....baptized into water...it says baptized into Christ.


It is a public confession.



This sentence would be helpful to you when you struggle with the false teaching of the carnal Christian... you did not seem to believe that in that thread.

.

The outward act of baptism points to the inner work of the Spirit.

.
This use of wording here is Ironic in that in Spirit Baptism it is a reality.
A water baptism can be a false profession, Spirit baptism does not allow for that.



What is being spoken of in Romans 6 speaks of regeneration which is a Spiritual reality....that is why water is not primarily in view....


Salvation is actual.....not an identification with the likeness.
We were co-crucified with Christ......it is actual.



Not in your kind of church, or your understanding.....

Just assertions and personal opinions. Nothing worth answering