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He believes that when people are baptized and celebrate the Eucharist (among other things) that they are in fact participating in the Kingdom (experiencing the Kingdom within a covenant relationship) in the present instead of just participating in a symbolic ritual in anticipation of a future Kingdom. Those wacky Anglicans and their Eucharist.
Yeah! Wow! If he is talking about the final above of glorified saints, then ok, but if he is talking about the present state of the dead then he is wrong! Where did Paul go then when he said he was caught up to the "third" heaven. Where is Christ right now? Where are the saints that Christ will BRING WITH HIM FROM HEAVEN then? Where are those "spirits" in Hebrews 12:23???
You believe great great grandma is walking the streets of gold in her final, etneral home right now? If so, then do you have a passage to support that and how do you deal with passages that speak of a new creation, resurrected saints, a new body, etc. Are they just symbolic for what already exist in the sky? If not, then yea...wow. there will be a new, literal Creation and we will exist with new, glorified bodies.
Wright has clarified very strongly that he is speaking of that final home, so I take it you two are wondering about me. I agree with both Wright and DA Carson here. Heaven is a new creation.
I believe DA Carson hit it right (in his gospel series). What is spoken of is God's presence with man in a new creation where we will have physical, resurrected bodies. I do not believe my father is already glorified in a resurrected body waiting for the city to be lowered to earth.
How can there be anything "new" in timeless eternity?
I don't think anyone is claiming the resurrection has already occurred or that the saints in Glory already have their resurrection bodies.
I don't know. I wouldn't have used those words (I borrowed them from the Apostle John).
I agree, except that I do believe that where we go when we die is an "intermediate" heaven, a place where we await "that day", and our final home is a reconciled and perfect and physical Heaven which is the New Earth.
Yes. We all believe that. So what is the debate about? It seems to me the only question is, "Does the Heavenly City already exist?" (Hint: It isn't called "Heavenly" for nothing.)
Well, actually, you didn't. John is talking about a "new heaven" and a "new earth." The last part should give you a hint where those new things are located. (Hint: earth exists in time.)I don't know. I wouldn't have used those words (I borrowed them from the Apostle John).
Are you saying God, the Father, will have a physical body??
No! I am saying Christ is in a physical body existing somewhere? I am saying Paul said there is now presently a new Jerusalem existing above somewhere!
I brought it up because it is essential to my view of Heaven. I believe that Heaven (as our final "abode") includes Creation itself re-created and reconciled to God. As Carson put it, what God did in raising His Son will be done to Creation, it will be resurrected from it's current state. Heaven is this new creation of which we, in Christ, will take part.
I have not studied the matter to that extent. When I watched the videos by D.A. Carson, I noticed a few things he said that I had not considered. He relates the New Jerusalem as the presence of God and views Christ as the lion, slain lamb, and city. So in his view, Heaven (not our "in between time" is the presence of God coming to dwell with His children in this new creation. He also considered "time, times and half a time" to be akin to "four score and seven years ago". He said it was a common expression to which the Jews would identify (pointing to the Maccabeans and speaking to this current time...these "last days"). I haven't considered that very much either.