1. Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.

    Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.

    We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!

Featured New Interview with Dr. Robinson

Discussion in 'Bible Versions & Translations' started by John of Japan, Sep 7, 2016.

  1. evangelist6589

    evangelist6589 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2010
    Messages:
    10,285
    Likes Received:
    163
    Faith:
    Baptist
    James White is pretty smart you know.
     
  2. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    Messages:
    19,638
    Likes Received:
    1,834
    Faith:
    Baptist
    A lot of smart people are completely ignorant about textual criticism. Other smart people have studied textual criticism on their own, but gotten it completely wrong.
     
  3. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
     
  4. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    20,080
    Likes Received:
    3,491
    Faith:
    Baptist
    The problem is that so far no proponent of the CT has been able to overcome the primary fault of the eclectic methodology.
     
    • Agree Agree x 2
  5. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    There is also though the truth that one cannot use the majority position as being the primary one without any question...

    Still hold that regardless of how one views this issue, the Greek texts that we have either in MT/CT are pretty much the same as the origonals were, and that we can have confidence that either of them qualify to being the Word of God to us now, and that either text can be used as a basis to translate off from and producing a solid translation!
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  6. evangelist6589

    evangelist6589 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2010
    Messages:
    10,285
    Likes Received:
    163
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Not DA Carson!
     
  7. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    20,080
    Likes Received:
    3,491
    Faith:
    Baptist
    And who has suggested elevating the Byzantine textform to unquestionable status? I must of missed that claim. :)
     
  8. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    20,080
    Likes Received:
    3,491
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Where did you get your Ph.D./Th.D. which qualifies you to make a definitive determination regarding the relative merits of Dr. Carson's or Dr. Robinson's CV or textual position?
     
    • Agree Agree x 1
  9. McCree79

    McCree79 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2015
    Messages:
    2,232
    Likes Received:
    305
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Pickering. :)

    Sent from my LGLS990 using Tapatalk
     
  10. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    20,080
    Likes Received:
    3,491
    Faith:
    Baptist
    No, he didn't. I have read "The Identity of the New Testament Text" several times and I can't find where he ever claimed his "New Testament According to the Majority Text" was above question.

    In fact, to arrive at the most reliable text certain questions have to be asked:

    1. Antiquity - The age of the actual manuscript. This is not a conclusive text for a 14th century mss may be an accurate copy of a 3rd century mss, whereas a 6th century mss may be a poor copy of a 3rd century mss.

    2. Consent - The number of other witnesses. Normal practice is to accept the word of the majority of witnessess against the different readings of a few, especially when those few do not agree with each other.

    3. Variety - The universality of evidence. Manuscripts supporting a certain reading should come from a variety of geographical locations and be attested to be a variety of other mss, lectionaries, versions, and Patristics.

    4. Respectability - The reliability of the witness. Manuscripts which habitually contain errors are poor witnesses.

    5. Continuity - The unbroken tradition of a witness. Have the readings/mss in question been widely accepted by churches over a wide spectrum of time?

    6. Context - The evidence of the whole passage. The nature of the text surrounding a questioned reading can cast much light on the issue. If the reading is surrounded by obvious errors, it is much less likely to be a true reading.

    7. Reasonableness - The internal credibility of the text. If a text contains grammatical absurdities, or obvious geographical, scientific, or biblical errors, the reading is not likely to be reliable.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  11. McCree79

    McCree79 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2015
    Messages:
    2,232
    Likes Received:
    305
    Faith:
    Baptist
    "Presumably the evidence is the same for both believer and unbeliever, but the interpretation of the facts depends upon the presuppositions used. Let the conservative Christian not be ashamed of his presuppositions—they are more reasonable than those of the unbeliever…. God has preserved the text of the New Testament…the Traditional Text is in the fullest sense of the term, just that." - An Evaluation of the Contribution of John William Burgon to New Testament Textual Criticism,” p. 90.

    The traditional text he speaks of is the MT. His presupposition is that God preserved the MT. So to question the MT is to question the autographs.



    Sent from my LGLS990 using Tapatalk
     
  12. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    20,080
    Likes Received:
    3,491
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I too have read Burgon, along with Tregelles, Scrivener, Hoskier and the more contemporary such as Hodges, Farstad, Bock, Sturz, and, of course, Robinson.

    But nowhere do I see any statement that the Byzantine Texform is beyond question.
     
  13. evangelist6589

    evangelist6589 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2010
    Messages:
    10,285
    Likes Received:
    163
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Kind of the same analogy to be used between you and ..... never mind
     
  14. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    20,080
    Likes Received:
    3,491
    Faith:
    Baptist
    I must correct my earlier statement. I just got an email from Dr. Robinson wherein he quoted a mailing from Wilbur Pickering in which Dr. Pickering stated:

    “The Original Text is the ultimate archetype; any candidate must also be an archetype—a real, honest to goodness, objectively verifiable archetype; there is only one—Family 35. I affirm that God used Family 35 to preserve the precise original wording of the New Testament Text; it is reproduced in my edition of the Greek Text. I affirm that God has preserved the precise original wording of the New Testament, and that we can, and do, know what it is. It is reproduced precisely in my edition of the Greek New Testament.”

    So, it seems I was wrong. (Not the first time so I didn't break a perfect record.) :D There does seem to be at least one person who sees his own Greek New Testament (Family 35) as being above question and an "objectively verifiable archetype" of the original manuscripts.

    I am not certain on what basis Dr. Pickering makes that assertion, as Dr. Robinson pointed out in his email to me, some of the variants within the Byzantine text form are so equally divided as to be a statistical toss up. (My wording, not his. He articulates these things much better than I do.) I wonder what infallible method Dr. Pickering used to choose between two equal probabilities?

    So, McCree79, you were right and I was wrong. I tender my humble apologies for not doing my homework before posting. :)

    PS: Dr. Pickering's "Family 35" Greek New Testament is available for download at http://www.bgnt.net/
     
  15. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    Messages:
    19,638
    Likes Received:
    1,834
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Between me and a lot of people, including my son. :Coffee

    But it was hyperbole.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  16. evangelist6589

    evangelist6589 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Nov 22, 2010
    Messages:
    10,285
    Likes Received:
    163
    Faith:
    Baptist
    That's not what I meant. I meant between you and Comfort.
     
  17. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    Messages:
    19,638
    Likes Received:
    1,834
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Why in the world would I want to debate him? :Laugh

    P. S. This sub-form is about Bible translation. That's an area of expertise as well as personal evangelism.
     
  18. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Mar 19, 2012
    Messages:
    52,624
    Likes Received:
    2,742
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Not saying beyond question, but you and others have elevated it to being superior to the Critical texts, which if fine, but also suggesting that many textual critics do not regard it in that same fashion!
     
  19. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
    Site Supporter

    Joined:
    Sep 22, 2005
    Messages:
    19,638
    Likes Received:
    1,834
    Faith:
    Baptist
    That's because of the Westcott/Hort presupposition that the Alexandrian was superior. Putting the Byzantine above the Alexandrian is based to some extent on the proven canon that the shorter reading is, in fact, not the best.
     
    • Like Like x 1
  20. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
    Administrator

    Joined:
    Mar 30, 2005
    Messages:
    20,080
    Likes Received:
    3,491
    Faith:
    Baptist
    Think about it. Which textform is more likely to represent the original"

    One that has been in constant use in churches for 1500 years (that we know of) or one that never existed until 1850 and after?
     
Loading...