Mid Trib Rapture

[Ed Edwards]

Originally Posted by Ed Edwards
resurrection2 - a resurrection1 followed closely by a rapture1 at the end of the 70th week of Daniel
rapture2 - a resurrection1 followed closely by a rapture1 at the beginning of the 70th week of Daniel



Palatka51: //Direct and total contradiction to Rev 20:11-15//

Ah, you want to talk about a resurrection3 of the damned 1,000 years after the 70th week of Daniel.

I rephrase for better understanding:

resurrection1 - the raising from the dead of the dead in Christ (with new body) of people done by Jesus
rapture1 - like resurrection1 but with living people in Christ (with new body) also done by Jesus

 

[Ed Edwards]

//There are too many scriptures in conflict with a pretrib view. All fits with a pre-wrath rapture.//

The pretrib view is a pre-wrath view. I know of at least three 'wrath of God' at three different times:

1. the light wrath of God - the first 3½-years of the 70th week of Daniel, the first half of the 70th week of Daniel
2. the undiluted Wrath of God -- the second 3½-years of the 70th week of Daniel, the second half of the 70th week of Daniel
3. the eternal wrath of God in the bottomless pit

 

[Palatka51]

The pretrib view is a pre-wrath view.

That being the case then we are basically arguing semantics then. We should therefore be in agreement then. :thumbs:

 

[RevJWWhiteJr]

Pre-Trib Conditional Rapture

I did not anticipate having to defend the Pre-Tribulation position. I have in the past been accused of believing in and therefore teaching “escapist theology”. Such does not bother me in the least since Yeshua (Jesus) used that very term in the Olivet Discourse. Whether he was establishing the initiation of the fundamental teaching of the gathering (catching up) (Rapture) [I’ll use any term you prefer] from the Great Tribulation in the form of an escape of it before its inception matters not. The point of fact in question is he did speak directly of an escape from it. I prefer to believe the scripture and not man’s interpretation of it. I was interested in learning of the escape he was speaking of (Rapture or no Rapture). I came to learn a Pre-Tribulational event is the only “theory” that agrees with his teachings. The rest of the scripture confirms.

2 Thessalonians 2:1-3
1. Now we beseech you, brethren, by the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ, and by our gathering together unto him,
2. That ye be not soon shaken in mind, or be troubled, neither by spirit, nor by word, nor by letter as from us, as that the day of Christ is at hand.
3. Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

If you ask the scripture, “what day shall not come”, the scripture answers, “the day of Christ”, but does not define that day. The teachings of that day have to be cross referenced. The Rapture of the Bride does not take place on the “day of Christ” which is the day of the return of the Messiah or the traditional second coming at the conclusion of the Great Tribulation. I totally agree with your passage. That day shall not come “except” (a term that is critical in Rev 2:22) there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed.
Verse one is the passage most leave out. Paul is writing a second letter to the Thessalonians due to the fact someone has come into their midst and was teaching falsely they had missed “the gathering”. If they had, that would place them inside The Great Tribulation and waiting now on the day of Christ. Paul is confirming for them that they had not. Also, all the comforting terms Paul uses mirror,

1 Thessalonians 4:18 Wherefore comfort one another with these words. (Referring to the gathering).
I know this is old news to Post and Mid-Tribbers, but If no one escapes, I see no comfort in that news.
The foundation of the Pre-Tribulation teachings are clearly defined by the descriptions given by the scripture.

Revelation 1:7
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

This is most definitely the Glorious Appearing or the “Traditional Second Coming” that occurs at the end of the Great Tribulation period. The truth is, the phrase “second coming” does not appear anywhere in the King James Version of the scripture that I have been able to find. I will stand corrected if any one can refer me to such a passage. I am sure it was the invention of a well meaning theologian somewhere in church history and derived from the obvious teachings regarding the return of Jesus Christ. But the term in and of itself does not appear in the text of the scripture. That is not to say there will be no second coming. There most certainly will be. But we must first find it in scripture under another term. This we will do from the passage Hebrews 9:28. The only instance in the entirety of the scripture (that I am aware of) when and where a numerical value is placed within the teaching of a reference to the return of our Lord.

Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

This is the only verse in the scripture that directly identifies itself as referring to the second time the Lord Jesus will appear. Not the Rapture, (caught up or “snatched” before the Great Tribulation Period) not the traditional Second Coming (at the end of the Great Tribulation Period) but the next time or “second time” Jesus will make an appearance into this physical world.
The appearance of Jesus that is most commonly referred to, has him coming with/or/in the clouds of heaven, in/or/with great power and great glory (Matthew 24:29-30, Mark 13:24-26 and Luke 21:25-27).

Matthew 24:29-30
29 Immediately after the tribulation of those days shall the sun be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light, and the stars shall fall from heaven, and the powers of the heavens shall be shaken:
30 And then shall appear the sign of the Son of man in heaven: and then shall all the tribes of the earth mourn, and they shall see the Son of man coming in the clouds of heaven with power and great glory.

Mark 13:24-26
24 But in those days, after that tribulation, the sun shall be darkened, and the moon shall not give her light,
25 And the stars of heaven shall fall, and the powers that are in heaven shall be shaken.
26 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in the clouds with great power and glory.

Luke 21:25-27
25 And there shall be signs in the sun, and in the moon, and in the stars; and upon the earth distress of nations, with perplexity; the sea and the waves roaring;
26 Men’s hearts failing them for fear, and for looking after those things which are coming on the earth: for the powers of heaven shall be shaken.
27 And then shall they see the Son of man coming in a cloud with power and great glory.

These passages paired together in context suggest they speak of the same coming as it is also recorded in Revelation 1:7.

Revelation 1:7
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him: and all kindreds of the earth shall wail because of him. Even so, Amen.

This appearance, that is so obviously the Glorious Appearing (every eye shall see him) undoubtedly takes place at the end of The Great Tribulation Period (after the tribulation of those days). But, these narratives do not record the numerical value identifying any of them as the second coming, nor do they agree with the description of Hebrews 9:28 that does (unto them that look for him shall he appear “the second time”).
The writer of Hebrews records clearly that he will appear to those who are looking for him and defines that appearance as the second time. These two criteria are then associated with the return of Jesus Christ in our future, due to the fact it has not yet occurred. Nowhere else in scripture are we given these two pieces of information attached to a single passage that is referring to an appearance of our Lord Jesus Christ.
Since the passage of Hebrews is so dissimilar than the text of Matthew, Mark and Luke, the differences in their descriptions suggest there will be two separate events, both of which involve an appearance of the Lord Jesus Christ. The Rapture, (the second time) appearing only to the select few who are looking for his return which will initiate the Great Tribulation Period. Then the traditional Second Coming, when the entire population of the world will see and witness his Triumphant Glorious Appearing which will end The Great Tribulation Period.
But, since this “theory” is derived from the assumption that the Rapture is in fact a biblical teaching from a predetermined Pre-Tribulational perspective, we need scriptural corroboration in order to accept it as truth. Is there a passage in the scripture that would help us confirm this “interpretation” of two separate comings of the Lord ? I believe there is, and as it happens, Jesus himself is again the speaker.

Luke 17:20-22
20 And when he was demanded of the Pharisees, when the kingdom of God should come, he answered them and said, The kingdom of God cometh not with observation:
21 Neither shall they say, Lo here! or, lo there! for, behold, the kingdom of God is within you.
22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.

He then turns to his disciples, with the subject of the coming of the Kingdom of God still the topic, and makes reference to the days of the Son of man, making the two subjects synonymous. But when he does so, he mentions the days in the plural, and then a time that will come when the disciples will desire to see one of them. “One of the days of the Son of man” is a direct indication of more than one, confirmed by the rest of the scripture in its descriptions as two, beginning and ending the time known as The Great Tribulation Period.

 

[skypair]

I appreciate the supposed clarifications, however I am not convinced. There are too many scriptures in conflict with a pretrib view. All fits with a pre-wrath rapture.

Problem there is -- do we try to put scripture into our "model" or, the other way round, do we try to understand scripture as it all fits together. You will find, if you study it much, that prewrath has a lot of loose ends like not ending the plagues of the GT before Christ comes back -- within the 1260 days and within Daniel's 70th week.

2 Thes 2:1-12
Verse 3 in particular; 3Let no man deceive you by any means: for that day shall not come, except there come a falling away first, and that man of sin be revealed, the son of perdition;

I don't see a people that have a desire for the things of God in this last generation. I see a Church that must endure judgment/tribulation.

As indeed, there are! Laodicea, Thyatira for sure. But they are the "FOOLISH virgins" who never believed.

This visitation is tribulation of the Saints. Therefore judgment will begin at the house of God.

I believe you are almost right! Not of the "saints" but of the church. I believe that the left behind church is the "platform" for AC's one world religion and that, as Christ said, "And I will kill her children with death;..." Rev 2:23 In fact, they are the martyrs of the 5th seal! But again, these didn't believe when they might have been saved (2Thes 2:10). You even quote yourself 1Pet 4:17 -- they "obeyed not the gospel." "Righteous scarcely be saved" speaks of the rapture, does it not?

I pray that all of you are correct but the more I study the more solid it seems, that we will endure tribulation.

I find the people that say this find it easy to follow someone else's "footsteps" through the snow but are not very adept at finding the way by themselves. The question you should ask yourself is not "is it convincing" but is it "convicting." Men convince -- the Holy Spirit convicts. If we expect that tribulation first, we may be convinced to lay up food and guns for the hard times as Mormons do. If we expect the rapture first and imminently, we fashion our lives to be "found so doing when He comes." Mt 24:46

skypair

 

[skypair]

RevJWW,

You have a good way with words and the Word. :thumbsup:

2 Thessalonians 2:2-3 2. ...as that the day of Christ is at hand. 3. ... for that day shall not come,..."

If you ask the scripture, “what day shall not come”, the scripture answers, “the day of Christ”,..."

And in 2:3 there is the occurrence of this phrase that throughout the OT referred to the end times and Messiah's coming -- "that day!"

.
The foundation of the Pre-Tribulation teachings are clearly defined by the descriptions given by the scripture.

Revelation 1:7
7 Behold, he cometh with clouds; and every eye shall see him, and they also which pierced him..."

[ References Zech 12:10.

Hebrews 9:28 So Christ was once offered to bear the sins of many; and unto them that look for him shall he appear the second time without sin unto salvation.

Love your insight on this!

...the differences in their descriptions suggest there will be two separate events, both of which involve an appearance of the Lord Jesus Christ.

I didn't see this. Can you explain?

skypair

 

[MB]

10 virgins 5 were ready and five weren't. It wasn't works that made the five ready, It was a submission to the righteousness of God. No matter how many good works we do our righteousness is still filthy rags.
Submission is not a work but a giving up of our rebellion against God. It's not doing anything but rather it's the ceasing of our rebellion. The extra oil is the work of God in our lives.
The virgins that weren't ready weren't concerned with God at all. They went through the motions but there heart just wasn't in it. They believed but hadn't submitted to the righteousness of God.
Rom 10:2 For I bear them record that they have a zeal of God, but not according to knowledge.
Rom 10:3 For they being ignorant of God's righteousness, and going about to establish their own righteousness, have not submitted themselves unto the righteousness of God.
Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.

My personal belief is pretrib.
Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Noah was saved from destruction before the flood and so will we.
MB

 

[Palatka51]

Thank you Skypar for that. It was a great read. However when you speak of Laodicea and Thyatira. It is apparent that Jesus is telling them to get their act straight. In the Olivet discourse Jesus gave us that account of the 10 virgins. Once the door was shut the 5 without oil are outside looking in. Jesus does not say that they come back later with their lights burning and then letting them in. They are done for. Outside without light and hope. However Laodicea and Thyatira's candlestick (though admonished that it could be) is not only still in the lamp but is burning thus having oil. Laodicea is exhorted to have their gold tried in fire. Purest gold is refined with the hottest fire.

What Church had the most persecutions? Smyrna.
Revelation 2:8-11
8And unto the angel of the church in Smyrna write; These things saith the first and the last, which was dead, and is alive;
9I know thy works, and tribulation, and poverty, (but thou art rich) and I know the blasphemy of them which say they are Jews, and are not, but are the synagogue of Satan.
10Fear none of those things which thou shalt suffer: behold, the devil shall cast some of you into prison, that ye may be tried; and ye shall have tribulation ten days: be thou faithful unto death, and I will give thee a crown of life.
11He that hath an ear, let him hear what the Spirit saith unto the churches; He that overcometh shall not be hurt of the second death.

This is the only Church that Jesus saw as being perfect. He gives them encouragement. In fact He tells them they are rich. Contrasted with Laodicea who was worldly rich their gold has been refined. So tribulation is the refining process that God uses to enrich His people.

Laodicea is the Western Church in today's time. It is worldly and very rich in assets and monetary wealth. Several generations have passed sense the Church in the western world has had persecution or tribulation (as Thyatira's persecution is equated with tribulation). Laodicea will be tried. It's gold will be made pure.

Look at this board that calls itself a Christian site. Many here defend their use of alcohol, some elicit drugs and even many defend and elect leaders of this nation (USA) that are killing the unborn through legislation and adjudication. Don't even get me started with Western Europe's social mess.

There are times I feel like Jeremiah who message God gave him to deliver only to be thrown into prison and left to lament his peoples plight.

Yes, sir just as God did in the past, "Judgment must begin at the house of God.":tear: He will bring the gold back to all it's gleaming glory for His glory and Names sake.

Jeremiah 6:18-30
18Therefore hear, ye nations, and know, O congregation, what is among them.
19Hear, O earth: behold, I will bring evil upon this people, even the fruit of their thoughts, because they have not hearkened unto my words, nor to my law, but rejected it.
20To what purpose cometh there to me incense from Sheba, and the sweet cane from a far country? your burnt offerings are not acceptable, nor your sacrifices sweet unto me.
21Therefore thus saith the LORD, Behold, I will lay stumblingblocks before this people, and the fathers and the sons together shall fall upon them; the neighbour and his friend shall perish.
22Thus saith the LORD, Behold, a people cometh from the north country, and a great nation shall be raised from the sides of the earth.
23They shall lay hold on bow and spear; they are cruel, and have no mercy; their voice roareth like the sea; and they ride upon horses, set in array as men for war against thee, O daughter of Zion.
24We have heard the fame thereof: our hands wax feeble: anguish hath taken hold of us, and pain, as of a woman in travail.
25Go not forth into the field, nor walk by the way; for the sword of the enemy and fear is on every side.
26O daughter of my people, gird thee with sackcloth, and wallow thyself in ashes: make thee mourning, as for an only son, most bitter lamentation: for the spoiler shall suddenly come upon us. Remember 2 Thess Chapter 2 anyone? A falling away came first then comes the son of perdition.
27I have set thee for a tower and a fortress among my people, that thou mayest know and try their way.
28They are all grievous revolters, walking with slanders: they are brass and iron; they are all corrupters.
29The bellows are burned, the lead is consumed of the fire; the founder melteth in vain: for the wicked are not plucked away.
30Reprobate silver shall men call them, because the LORD hath rejected them.

Jeremiah 7:1-20
1The word that came to Jeremiah from the LORD, saying,
2Stand in the gate of the LORD’S house, and proclaim there this word, and say, Hear the word of the LORD, all ye of Judah, that enter in at these gates to worship the LORD.
3Thus saith the LORD of hosts, the God of Israel, Amend your ways and your doings, and I will cause you to dwell in this place.
4Trust ye not in lying words, saying, The temple of the LORD, The temple of the LORD, The temple of the LORD, are these.
5For if ye thoroughly amend your ways and your doings; if ye thoroughly execute judgment between a man and his neighbour;
6If ye oppress not the stranger, the fatherless, and the widow, and shed not innocent blood in this place, neither walk after other gods to your hurt:
7Then will I cause you to dwell in this place, in the land that I gave to your fathers, for ever and ever.
8Behold, ye trust in lying words, that cannot profit.
9Will ye steal, murder, and commit adultery, and swear falsely, and burn incense unto Baal, and walk after other gods whom ye know not;
10And come and stand before me in this house, which is called by my name, and say, We are delivered to do all these abominations?
11Is this house, which is called by my name, become a den of robbers in your eyes? Behold, even I have seen it, saith the LORD.
12But go ye now unto my place which was in Shiloh, where I set my name at the first, and see what I did to it for the wickedness of my people Israel.
13And now, because ye have done all these works, saith the LORD, and I spake unto you, rising up early and speaking, but ye heard not; and I called you, but ye answered not;
14Therefore will I do unto this house, which is called by my name, wherein ye trust, and unto the place which I gave to you and to your fathers, as I have done to Shiloh.
15And I will cast you out of my sight, as I have cast out all your brethren, even the whole seed of Ephraim.
16Therefore pray not thou for this people, neither lift up cry nor prayer for them, neither make intercession to me: for I will not hear thee.
17Seest thou not what they do in the cities of Judah and in the streets of Jerusalem?
18The children gather wood, and the fathers kindle the fire, and the women knead their dough, to make cakes to the queen of heaven, and to pour out drink offerings unto other gods, that they may provoke me to anger.
19Do they provoke me to anger? saith the LORD: do they not provoke themselves to the confusion of their own faces?
20Therefore thus saith the Lord GOD; Behold, mine anger and my fury shall be poured out upon this place, upon man, and upon beast, and upon the trees of the field, and upon the fruit of the ground; and it shall burn, and shall not be quenched.

In chapter 7 the people responded to this message of Jeremiah's thinking that they possessed the House of God (Temple) and God would not do anything to hurt His House.

This thinking permeated the people as God did spare His House in the time of Hezekiah's reign. Shiloh was not spared, chapter 7:12&14 and God will not spare Jerusalem this time.

Hezekiah sought the LORD with repentance and was spared. Our people today have got to seek the Lord for repentance now or just as He did to His House then He will do to His House today. Don't think that because we are in the Church that we will escape judgment that must begin at God's House. :tear: Again 1Peter 4.

 

[Palatka51]

Luk 17:26 And as it was in the days of Noe, so shall it be also in the days of the Son of man.
Noah was saved from destruction before the flood and so will we.
MB

Ok, and thank you MB, Let us look at Noah then.

You have said Noah was saved from destruction. I think we agree, that destruction is the Wrath of God. Noah therefore is the Church. The Ark is safety in Christ. In Noah you have all representatives of the human race in Shem, Ham and Japheth, Noah's sons, Jew and Gentile are found in these three men. There is no one left behind that is going to be saved after the flood. It is God who closes the doors to the Ark (Christ). There is no second boat on it's way to carry anyone treading water to dry land. All outside of the Ark is doomed and reserved for wrath. This is where we are in agreement.

Hebrews 11:7
7By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.

There is coming a time when the Church will stand and cast out all the worldliness it is holding onto. Just as Lot had to do at Sodom. Think not that Jesus is going to remove His Church out in the condition that it is in.

Where we are in disagreement with is just what and who will endure tribulation. Tribulation is not the Wrath of God. Tribulation is the furnace that purifies the Church's gold, again Rev 2:8-11 and Rev 3:14-22.

Noah had to endure tribulation/persecution while he built the Ark.
1 Peter 3:18-20
18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.

Does not scripture show that the sons of God were indeed disobedient before the flood came? Today's Church is indeed disobedient and unrepentant.
2 Timothy 3:7
1This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Sounds very much like the days of Noah doesn't it? The above verses are right out of today's headlines. Pastors are molesting children. Deacons are leaving their wives and taking up with the pianist. Women are being ordained which is opposed to scripture. Gay men and women are put in positions of Church authority. How in all that is seen do you think the world is going to be able to discern what is the true Church if the Church is just like the world.

Remember that the 10 virgins were sleeping together and both's lamps were not illuminated. So that at the cry of the midnight hour BEHOLD THE BRIDEGROOM COMES! Both jump up to trim and light their lamps. Only 5 have light as they have oil. The Bridegroom receives them in and closes the door.

Who closed the door of the Ark? God.

Was any let in after it was closed? No

Was the 5 foolish virgins allowed in after the Bridal Chamber was closed? No

What caused the 10 to trim their lamps? The darkest hour of the night, and a cry. Indicative of faining hope, and hard tribulation/persecution. Five already have oil. Five go to buy it in the marketplace of the world. The marketplace of "religious diversity" that has never had oil. Isn't it strange that at this time the world will be going after the false religion of the Antichrist.

James 5:1-11
1Go to now, ye rich men, (Laodicea =modern Church)weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you.
2Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are motheaten.
3Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.
4Behold, the hire of the labourers who have reaped down your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth: and the cries of them which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of sabaoth.
5Ye have lived in pleasure on the earth, and been wanton; ye have nourished your hearts, as in a day of slaughter.
6Ye have condemned and killed the just; and he doth not resist you.
7Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.
8Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.
9Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door. (Again judgment begins at the House of God)
10Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience.
11Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.

 

[RevJWWhiteJr]

Pre-Trib Conditioanl (partial) Rapture

I will attempt to put this in a nutshell. I so must enjoy writing I tend to prolong the dialog. (But, it is truly for the purpose of teaching, let me assure you).

The parable of the ten virgins and the parable of the talents of Matthew chapter 25 has never been used by me as an illustration of the Pre-Trib Rapture due to the ability of some to effectively misinterpret lessons into the passages I feel are unfounded. I do not even mention them in my book. Each begins with a quote by Jesus of them to represent what “the kingdom of heaven is liken unto”. Nowhere in the text is there a clear connection of teaching making it synonymous with “the Gathering”. Through interpretation they can be used to illustrate a variety of teachings. I have seen such. One anomaly is the obvious connotation that the passage speaks directly of them to be wedding guest to the marriage (not the Bride herself) and their ability and inability to attain access to the marriage and accompanying feast. That in itself can be interpreted in an after the fact explanation in that the actual “Bride” is already in attendance inside, and these are merely guests (after the Bride is taken?).

Hebrews 9:28 however, describes a coming of the Lord (appearance of Christ) classified by the passage itself as “the second time” he will appear. This is the only verse or verses in the scripture that possess this numerical description. In addition it describes precisely to whom he will appear, (if one accepts the wording to be a significant factor, as I do) which clearly directs this appearance to “them that look for him“, no one else. The passage does not say “only” but implies that directive through directional speech.

Revelation 1:7 is a different matter all together. At this appearance (that is not given a numerical) Jesus will be seen by every single solitary individual, not just to them which are looking for his arrival. This is the significant difference between these two passages. When taken literally and at face value, the scripture interprets itself with no help from us.

Laodicea and Thyatira were mentioned in one post. Each are supremely significant concerning the teachings of the Pre-Tribulation Rapture.

Revelation 2:22
22 Behold, I will cast her into a bed, and them that commit adultery with her into great tribulation, except they repent of their deeds.

One can not commit adultery against anyone but ones spouse. Therefore, the individuals being addressed are engaged to the speaker, Christ. They are in violation of the marriage agreement between them and their Bridegroom by accepting the false teachings being taught by the false prophetess, and participating in activities condemned by God. Essentially, they have tied themselves to the things of this world. For this infraction they (believers, engaged to the Bridegroom) will be cast into Great Tribulation. But Jesus goes on to Conditionalize this penalty, “except they repent of their deeds”. Some or part of the Church (I believe most) is going into Great Tribulation for the crime of adultery. A small portion (Philadelphia, who has kept the word of his patience, waiting and watching for his return) will escape the Great Tribulation through the open door of the Rapture provided by her Bridegroom.

 

[Palatka51]

One can not commit adultery against anyone but ones spouse. Therefore, the individuals being addressed are engaged to the speaker, Christ. They are in violation of the marriage agreement between them and their Bridegroom by accepting the false teachings being taught by the false prophetess, and participating in activities condemned by God. Essentially, they have tied themselves to the things of this world. For this infraction they (believers, engaged to the Bridegroom) will be cast into Great Tribulation. But Jesus goes on to Conditionalize this penalty, “except they repent of their deeds”. Some or part of the Church (I believe most) is going into Great Tribulation for the crime of adultery. A small portion (Philadelphia, who has kept the word of his patience, waiting and watching for his return) will escape the Great Tribulation through the open door of the Rapture provided by her Bridegroom.

Tribulation yes, Wrath no. A pre trib rapture will have to be followed up by a second one before Wrath. Where is there scripture that says this? There is none, not one. What you have given is scripture that confirms that Christ's first coming is that of His birth in Bethlehem. His 33.5 years walking amongst men and His death burial and resurrection. His second appearing will indeed be that of the gathering of His Bride, the Church once. There is a fractured resurrection, Christ's the first fruits and those that were around Jerusalem, then later at His return for the Church. Where then is a rapture prepared for these Tribulation Saints of yours in scripture? There, again, is none. There can only be a pre Wrath rapture/resurrection. Where upon the door is shut. Like that of the Ark and that of the Bridegroom's chamber.

 

[webdog]

Tribulation yes, Wrath no. A pre trib rapture will have to be followed up by a second one before Wrath.

Why is this? Christ being born, dying, going to the Father, and returning upon resurrection is considered only one coming, no? Why is Christ coming in the clouds, rapture of the church, going to the Father, and us returning with Christ have to be considered two comings? It's the same thing, and is symbolic of His first coming. Nobody states man has a second coming, even though when we die (or are raptured) we go to the Father and return to earth with Christ, which is the second time we are on earth.

 

[Palatka51]

Why is this? Christ being born, dying, going to the Father, and returning upon resurrection is considered only one coming, no? Why is Christ coming in the clouds, rapture of the church, going to the Father, and us returning with Christ have to be considered two comings? It's the same thing, and is symbolic of His first coming. Nobody states man has a second coming, even though when we die (or are raptured) we go to the Father and return to earth with Christ, which is the second time we are on earth.

Ask RevJWWhiteJr, it was his premise. :wavey: BTW I am about to concede the other argument to you. However wine and alcohol use is another subject. There may be in fact plant life "death" before man's fall. I am just not throughly convinced yet. :flower:

 

[MB]

Ok, and thank you MB, Let us look at Noah then.
You have said Noah was saved from destruction. I think we agree, that destruction is the Wrath of God. Noah therefore is the Church. The Ark is safety in Christ. In Noah you have all representatives of the human race in Shem, Ham and Japheth, Noah's sons, Jew and Gentile are found in these three men. There is no one left behind that is going to be saved after the flood. It is God who closes the doors to the Ark (Christ). There is no second boat on it's way to carry anyone treading water to dry land. All outside of the Ark is doomed and reserved for wrath. This is where we are in agreement.
Hebrews 11:7
7By faith Noah, being warned of God of things not seen as yet, moved with fear, prepared an ark to the saving of his house; by the which he condemned the world, and became heir of the righteousness which is by faith.
There is coming a time when the Church will stand and cast out all the worldliness it is holding onto. Just as Lot had to do at Sodom. Think not that Jesus is going to remove His Church out in the condition that it is in.

There isn't one man or woman that can claim truthfully they are sinless. Since God hates all sin, even a white lie we might tell, is deserving of death. Salvation is not kept by works nor is it gained by works. Salvation excludes us from the punishment of sin. Like it or not the Bible does say;
Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Where there is no law there is no punishment.

Where we are in disagreement with is just what and who will endure tribulation. Tribulation is not the Wrath of God. Tribulation is the furnace that purifies the Church's gold, again Rev 2:8-11 and Rev 3:14-22.

I'm sorry but the trying by fire is for 10 days not 3 and a half years. Being neither cold or hot isn't saved at all. It's going through the motions of religion with out the heart's involvement.

Noah had to endure tribulation/persecution while he built the Ark.

True but then we all have our own tribulations everyday that have nothing to do with the great tribulations

1 Peter 3:18-20
18For Christ also hath once suffered for sins, the just for the unjust, that he might bring us to God, being put to death in the flesh, but quickened by the Spirit:
19By which also he went and preached unto the spirits in prison;
20Which sometime were disobedient, when once the longsuffering of God waited in the days of Noah, while the ark was a preparing, wherein few, that is, eight souls were saved by water.
Does not scripture show that the sons of God were indeed disobedient before the flood came? Today's Church is indeed disobedient and unrepentant.

The sons of God before the flood is a term used to describe fallen angles not men.

2 Timothy 3:7
1This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.
Sounds very much like the days of Noah doesn't it? The above verses are right out of today's headlines. Pastors are molesting children. Deacons are leaving their wives and taking up with the pianist. Women are being ordained which is opposed to scripture. Gay men and women are put in positions of Church authority. How in all that is seen do you think the world is going to be able to discern what is the true Church if the Church is just like the world.

The church referred to here isn't the body of Christ. While there are wolves in sheep clothing in every congregation it doesn't mean every one in that congregation is guilty of the same. While I hesitate to say Child molesters will be in heaven because the very thought of such a thing is disgusting to me. There will be many who certainly do not deserve to be there including myself. We are suppose to walk in holiness yet there isn't ever going to be anyone who can do this while still wearing this body of death.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?

Remember that the 10 virgins were sleeping together and both's lamps were not illuminated. So that at the cry of the midnight hour BEHOLD THE BRIDEGROOM COMES! Both jump up to trim and light their lamps. Only 5 have light as they have oil. The Bridegroom receives them in and closes the door.

Yes and remember they were called foolish virgins. The term "foolish" speaks to what kind of women they were. To be foolish is to be in rebellion against God.
Psa 53:1 <To the chief Musician upon Mahalath, Maschil, A Psalm of David.> The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.

Who closed the door of the Ark? God.
Was any let in after it was closed? No
Was the 5 foolish virgins allowed in after the Bridal Chamber was closed? No
What caused the 10 to trim their lamps? The darkest hour of the night, and a cry. Indicative of faining hope, and hard tribulation/persecution. Five already have oil. Five go to buy it in the marketplace of the world. The marketplace of "religious diversity" that has never had oil. Isn't it strange that at this time the world will be going after the false religion of the Antichrist.
James 5:1-11
1Go to now, ye rich men, (Laodicea =modern Church)weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you.
2Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are motheaten.
3Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.
4Behold, the hire of the labourers who have reaped down your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth: and the cries of them which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of sabaoth.
5Ye have lived in pleasure on the earth, and been wanton; ye have nourished your hearts, as in a day of slaughter.
6Ye have condemned and killed the just; and he doth not resist you.
7Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.
8Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.
9Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door. (Again judgment begins at the House of God)
10Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience.
11Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.

Most of what you've stated here doesn't seem to consider scripture as a whole. Many today worry about the sin in there lives, we all have them. When we worry about it we are in disbelief because Salvation isn't because of something we do or maintain but instead is completely of God. It isn't our righteousness but God's righteousness. All we can do is stop the rebellion and only with the help of God. He is the Author and Finisher.
Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
If we believe at all, it isn't because, we thought of it first. He drew us because he draws all men. His word and His Spirit convinced us of the truth and convicted us of our sins. We aren't saved because of anything we've done but because of what He did and does. Our freewill can only choose to rebel and with many they still do. We don't choose Christ because He has already chosen us. Salvation is plainly all of God. No one saves himself. The only true righteousness any of us have is the wearing of the righteousness of Christ. The Law was righteous but man cannot live by the Law.
MB

 

[Palatka51]

There isn't one man or woman that can claim truthfully they are sinless. Since God hates all sin, even a white lie we might tell, is deserving of death. Salvation is not kept by works nor is it gained by works. Salvation excludes us from the punishment of sin. Like it or not the Bible does say;
Rom 10:4 For Christ is the end of the law for righteousness to every one that believeth.
Where there is no law there is no punishment.

I'm sorry but the trying by fire is for 10 days not 3 and a half years. Being neither cold or hot isn't saved at all. It's going through the motions of religion with out the heart's involvement.


True but then we all have our own tribulations everyday that have nothing to do with the great tribulations



The sons of God before the flood is a term used to describe fallen angles not men.

The church referred to here isn't the body of Christ. While there are wolves in sheep clothing in every congregation it doesn't mean every one in that congregation is guilty of the same. While I hesitate to say Child molesters will be in heaven because the very thought of such a thing is disgusting to me. There will be many who certainly do not deserve to be there including myself. We are suppose to walk in holiness yet there isn't ever going to be anyone who can do this while still wearing this body of death.
Rom 7:24 O wretched man that I am! who shall deliver me from the body of this death?


Yes and remember they were called foolish virgins. The term "foolish" speaks to what kind of women they were. To be foolish is to be in rebellion against God.
Psa 53:1 <To the chief Musician upon Mahalath, Maschil, A Psalm of David.> The fool hath said in his heart, There is no God. Corrupt are they, and have done abominable iniquity: there is none that doeth good.


Most of what you've stated here doesn't seem to consider scripture as a whole. Many today worry about the sin in there lives, we all have them. When we worry about it we are in disbelief because Salvation isn't because of something we do or maintain but instead is completely of God. It isn't our righteousness but God's righteousness. All we can do is stop the rebellion and only with the help of God. He is the Author and Finisher.
Heb 12:2 Looking unto Jesus the author and finisher of our faith; who for the joy that was set before him endured the cross, despising the shame, and is set down at the right hand of the throne of God.
If we believe at all, it isn't because, we thought of it first. He drew us because he draws all men. His word and His Spirit convinced us of the truth and convicted us of our sins. We aren't saved because of anything we've done but because of what He did and does. Our freewill can only choose to rebel and with many they still do. We don't choose Christ because He has already chosen us. Salvation is plainly all of God. No one saves himself. The only true righteousness any of us have is the wearing of the righteousness of Christ. The Law was righteous but man cannot live by the Law.
MB

Thank you for reading and the reply MB. Please keep in mind that I believe that tribulation is coming on the Church. Judgment must begin at the House of God. 1Peter 4. Where shall the sinner appear? In Wrath. 1Peter 4. The House of God is the Church. The saved salvation is secure. We are saved from wrath. Romans 5:9 The unsaved will endure wrath.
The Church at Symrna had tribulation 10 days. I did not say that it was 3.5 years, (hence great tribulation) that is for Laodicea. I brought out Symrna to show that Christians endure tribulations.

Laodicea is the condition of the modern western Church (please see my above posts as I will not go into my reasoning for this again at this time).

There are 7 golden candle sticks, are there not? Yes.

Is not Laodicea the 7th? Yes.

In any place in the Revelation of Jesus Christ is that candle stick removed or put out? No.

Laodicea is threatened to be spewed out but neither happens. Why? Because they are exhorted to have their gold tried in fire. Fire of what? Tribulation, even the great tribulation. Not Wrath because they are the House of God, 1Peter 4.
The first judgment/tribulation is on God's House, The second is on the sinner, again 1Peter 4. This is Wrath. Thus the resurrection is preWrath not pre trib.

God will rebuke and chasten His children. The tribulation is His chastening hand on this the latter Church.

Revelation 3:18&19
18I counsel thee to buy of me gold tried in the fire, that thou mayest be rich; and white raiment, that thou mayest be clothed, and that the shame of thy nakedness do not appear; and anoint thine eyes with eyesalve, that thou mayest see.
19As many as I love, I rebuke and chasten: be zealous therefore, and repent.

Please read Jeremiah 6:14 through chapter 7, and you will see again that God will indeed not spare this generation what is to come. Sense He did not spare those of that generation. Just as Noah was persecuted before the Ark was complete.

God is the same, yesterday, today and will be tomorrow.

 

[RevJWWhiteJr]

Tribulation yes, Wrath no. A pre trib rapture will have to be followed up by a second one before Wrath. Where is there scripture that says this? There is none, not one. What you have given is scripture that confirms that Christ's first coming is that of His birth in Bethlehem. His 33.5 years walking amongst men and His death burial and resurrection. His second appearing will indeed be that of the gathering of His Bride, the Church once. There is a fractured resurrection, Christ's the first fruits and those that were around Jerusalem, then later at His return for the Church. Where then is a rapture prepared for these Tribulation Saints of yours in scripture? There, again, is none. There can only be a pre Wrath rapture/resurrection. Where upon the door is shut. Like that of the Ark and that of the Bridegroom's chamber.

First and foremost I would like to thank each and every person who questions and discusses any and all subjects pertaining to the study of The Word. Each and every time I converse with others the Lord never fails to show me something I had overlooked, even inside the teachings I am familiar with. Thank You, All.
This is fun.

When referring to “Rapture” one is referencing directly the “caught up” event of 1st Thessalonians 4:17 as everyone already knows. This is confusing across the denominational board concerning its counterpart, resurrection. There are several resurrections throughout the scripture, both past and future. Some resurrections back to life in the physical and some to heaven (which have yet to occur). The Rapture, on the other hand is the only resurrection event which will include “those who are alive and remain” (changed from mortal to immortal) which will be caught up to meet the Lord in the air with those (who were “in Christ” at the point of physical death) that have been resurrected from their death (separation from physical life). Those that were resurrected from physical death at the time of the resurrection of Jesus were not changed to incorruptable (if in fact that is what was meant by you, I wasn‘t clear on your point in mentioning them with Christ, the first fruits and therefore including them), since they were not “in Christ” when they died. Their passing occurred under the Old Covenant. (Which places them in a unique and unprecedented position inside the plan of God, by the way). They will be raised at the second appearance.

There is only one caught up event. It takes place the next time Jesus returns, which is defined by Hebrews 9:28. Only those that are looking for that return will witness it. (And yes, it is technically Pre-Wrath since it does occur before the second half of the Great Tribulation, but also prior the first half as well.) There is no record of a second caught up alive event in scripture because there is not one. Inside the Great Tribulation or otherwise. There is only a resurrection and it is clearly defined and described in the scripture without a caught up event included. It has been confused with the Rapture. Those found under the altar, crying out to God for justice against the individuals that sent them to their death during the onslaught of the Great Tribulation. From the first seal till the fifth seal.


Revelation 6:9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:
10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?
11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

No believer going into the Great Tribulation period, or individuals that are saved during the Great Tribulation period are going to come out alive. There is no “alive and remain, caught up event” inside this terrible time. All true believers will be martyred for their faith in Christ. Then resurrected from the dead out from under the altar in the middle of the Great Tribulation.

Revelation 7:13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?
14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

Two things about this passage misunderstood by the modern Church.
1. This passage states these came out of Great Tribulation. This is before the trumpet and bowl judgments of the second half of the Great Tribulation confirming the entire seven years of the tribulation period as Great Tribulation. (Some believe only the second half is “great”).
2. Upon reception of our wedding garments as the Bride, our robes are clean. But as this passage states these robes had to be washed, confirming those that had acquired them before the Great Tribulation were soiled upon the onslaught of this terrible time. This is confirmed in the description of these saints in the first passage in that there are two classes of tribulation saints. Fellow servants (those saved inside the Great Tribulation, therefore fellow servants to John as he observed them) and brethren (those blood kin to John under the New Covenant left behind after the Rapture).

 

[Amy.G]

Mel, I haven't been keeping up with this thread so forgive me if I seem ignorant, but are you saying that the rapture will take place after the 7 year tribulation and just before God pours out His wrath on the earth?

This is what I think scripture says, but I am quite alone in that belief. I'm not even sure that's what I believe. It's quite a confusing topic for me (can you tell? :laugh: ) and everyone has a different view.

 

[RevJWWhiteJr]

One of the (two) days

Ask RevJWWhiteJr, it was his premise. :wavey: BTW I am about to concede the other argument to you. However wine and alcohol use is another subject. There may be in fact plant life "death" before man's fall. I am just not throughly convinced yet. :flower:

This is Jesus’ descriptions.
Luke 17:22
22 And he said unto the disciples, The days will come, when ye shall desire to see one of the days of the Son of man, and ye shall not see it.

1. Hebrews 9:28
2. Revelation 1:7
This is one of the days. The other is his Glorious Appearing.


John 14:1. Let not your heart be troubled: ye believe in God, believe also in me.
2 In my Father’s house are many mansions: if it were not so, I would have told you. I go to prepare a place for you.
3 And if I go and prepare a place for you, I will come again, and receive you unto myself; that where I am, there ye may be also.

Upon the second appearance of Jesus, he will gather his bride from the dead in Christ, and those that are alive and remain, to take them back to the fathers house. The Fathers house is New Jerusalem.
New Jerusalem will remain in heaven until the thousand years is fulfilled.

Revelation 21:2
2 And I John saw the holy city, new Jerusalem, coming down from God out of heaven, prepared as a bride adorned for her husband.

With the Bride residing in it.

 

[Palatka51]

First and foremost I would like to thank each and every person who questions and discusses any and all subjects pertaining to the study of The Word. Each and every time I converse with others the Lord never fails to show me something I had overlooked, even inside the teachings I am familiar with. Thank You, All.
This is fun.

Yes it is and until Christ comes let none of us ever depart from it's truth. :thumbs:

 

[Palatka51]

Mel, I haven't been keeping up with this thread so forgive me if I seem ignorant, but are you saying that the rapture will take place after the 7 year tribulation and just before God pours out His wrath on the earth?

This is what I think scripture says, but I am quite alone in that belief. I'm not even sure that's what I believe. It's quite a confusing topic for me (can you tell? :laugh: ) and everyone has a different view.

Thanks for asking Amy. Please read what has been posted and you'll be caught up. But as for this question, No I believe that scripture clearly defines a two part 7 year period that is divided into Tribulation then Wrath. Tribulation is a trial that the Church must experience, 1Peter chapter 4. Jesus will return and remove His Church and then begins the Wrath of God upon the remainder of all mankind. After the total 7 year period Christ will overthrow the Antichrist, Beast and false Prophet. The details are in the previous posts.

Mel