Mid Trib Rapture

[Darrenss1]

Jesus is Israel because he came through the tribe of Judah,house of David, when he left heaven. Judah is one of the 12 tribes of Israel so Jesus cannot be seperated from Israel.

I've not read Paul ever refer to Jesus being Israel, rather of the lineage of Israel, Judah, David..etc

Israel the natural branches was cut off because of their unbelief, your characterization of Paul including Jesus as Israel is more than presumptuous, it just doesn't fit from what I can see.

Romans 11:24 CULTIVATED OLIVE TREE
Jesus is God and has never needed any cultivating.

The root is God.
11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

Israel was cut off from the natural tree grown from the root and will be grafted into their own tree eventually.

Gentiles were of the wild olive tree, their branches broken off and grafted into the good olive tree.

Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree?

The reason it is so important understanding this truth is that it will affect how you view end time events including the "so called rapture".

Ok so how will it effect my view of the rapture and end times events?

Darren

 

[grainofwheat]

I've not read Paul ever refer to Jesus being Israel, rather of the lineage of Israel, Judah, David..etc

Israel the natural branches was cut off because of their unbelief, your characterization of Paul including Jesus as Israel is more than presumptuous, it just doesn't fit from what I can see.




The root is God.
11:16 For if the firstfruit be holy, the lump is also holy: and if the root be holy, so are the branches.

Israel was cut off from the natural tree grown from the root and will be grafted into their own tree eventually.

Gentiles were of the wild olive tree, their branches broken off and grafted into the good olive tree.

Rom 11:24 For if thou wert cut out of the olive tree which is wild by nature, and wert graffed contrary to nature into a good olive tree: how much more shall these, which be the natural branches, be graffed into their own olive tree




Ok so how will it effect my view of the rapture and end times events?

Darren

You tell me who the "them" is in verse 11 :17 ?
We the Gentiles [wild olive tree] were GRAFTED in among "them".

I used Luke chapter 3 as a reference for Jesus being part of Israel not Paul's writings.

If Jacob is Israel then that makes Jesus part of Israel and He cannot be seperated from Israel because He was born into the tribe of Judah.

Who do you think started the lineage in Luke chapter 3 ? I know the answer.

 

[Darrenss1]

I used Luke chapter 3 as a reference for Jesus being part of Israel not Paul's writings.
If Jacob is Israel then that makes Jesus part of Israel and He cannot be seperated from Israel because He was born into the tribe of Judah.
Who do you think started the lineage in Luke chapter 3 ? I know the answer.

Its a significant point to make that Jesus was not one of those in wilderness that rebelled because of unbelief or at the time of Acts whom rejected the Messiah, clearly Jesus is NOT that Israel whom rejected Him. The fact of the matter is the Israel Paul referred to, was broken off, clearly Jesus was not broken off as they were; But they were broken off because they rejected their Messiah. You have Israel, you have Israel's Messiah, that's 2 different identities you are trying to classify into 1.

Darren

 

[DeafPosttrib]

Darren,

You say:

...Clearly Jesus is NOT that Israel whom rejected Him,

Huh?

Yes, the Bible tells us that Jesus is Israel.

In Matthew 2:15 "And was there until the death of Herod: that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying Out of Egypt have I called my son."

Matthew 2:15 quoted and fulfilled Hosea 11:1 says, "When ISRAEL was a child, then I loved him, and called my son out of Egypt."

Clearly Hosea 11:1 speaks of 'Israel' is Jesus.

grainofwheat is right, that Jesus is Israel. Because He is the seed. If anyone who have faith in Christ, they are are belong to the same seed, which, God gave the promise to Abraham of his seed, which is Christ's.

In Galatians 3:14 - "That the blessing of Abraham might come on the Gentiles through Jesus Christ; that we(Gentiles and Jews Christians) receive the promise of the Spirit through faith."

Galatins 3:14 fulfilled in Genesis 17:4.

Notice Gal.3:16 says: "Now to Abraham and his seed were the promise made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of ONE, and to thy seed, which is CHRIST."

Throughout Old Testament period for about 2,500 years, many Jews, even included few Gentiles put their faith on God, they were part of Abraham's seed which is THROUGH Christ! -Gal. 3:7, same as we have faith in Christ, both O.T. saints and N.T. saints are on the same boat, which we are on Christ- the same seed.

Gal. 3:26-29 "For ye are ALL the children of God by faith in Christ Jesus. For as many of you as have been baptized into Christ have put on Christ. There is neither Jew nor Greek, there is neither bond nor female: for re are ALL ONE in Christ Jesus. And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise."

Galatians chapter 3 is not talking about about nation. It talks about individuals over the world, anyone either Jew or Gentile, who have faith in Jesus Christ, both are on the same boat that both did share the same promise, which God has told to Abraham, that we all are in ONE SEED.


Well, also, Romans chapter 11 telling us that we are on the same tree. Romans chapter 11 is not discuss about physical nation. It discusses about individual's salvation.

Church doesn't replace Israel. Church is Israel. Israel is Church. Both are same. Israel means God's people, well also, church means God's people. Both are no difference.

I am NOT a "Replacement Theology".

Israel was never been replaced, Israel is now expanding, because God added Gentiles upon the same tree, which believing Jews are remain on it. Gentiles are now join with believing Jews, both are share on the same tree, which is JESUS CHRIST!

The tree of Romans chapter 11 is all about Jesus Christ, not physical nation.

God only have one family.

Simple, in the heaven, there is only one city, one family, one God. There is no division in heaven.

Whole Bible is all about Jesus Christ, not tiny physical Jewish nation.

Understand clear? Thanks.

In Christ
Rev. 22:20 -Amen!

 

[HAmilton]

I agree--I wish that Christians would stop supporting Israel's abuses in the occupied territories (ie. stoning Palestinians and ripping up their crops among many other things in order to push them off their land). I recently read a study by a Jewish academic that shows that the Palestinians have a more direct genetic link to ancient Jews than do most of the Jews who emmigrated from Europe and whose descendants were European converts to Judaism.

 

[Darrenss1]

I am NOT a "Replacement Theology".

Sounds like it to me. As long as you take that position we'll have to agree to disagree. See you after the rapture. :laugh:

Darren

 

[FR7 Baptist]

Sounds like it to me. As long as you take that position we'll have to agree to disagree. See you after the rapture. :laugh:

Darren

What many people call "Replacement Theology" is really "Expansionist Theology" in that it makes God's offer of salvation available to all. Now, to be clear the universal availability was there in the OT, but the NT expands it from national Israel to the Church, spiritual Israel.

One book that does a good job of debunking dispensationalism is The Rapture Exposed by the Rev. Barbara Rossing, a Lutheran theologian.

 

[MB]

There is coming a time when the Church will stand and cast out all the worldliness it is holding onto. Just as Lot had to do at Sodom. Think not that Jesus is going to remove His Church out in the condition that it is in.

That all depends which church you are speaking of, a building or, the individual believer.
I believe the believer is the is the body of Christ and the true church.
Those not prepared have no faith. To be faithful in anything one has to be prepared.

Where we are in disagreement with is just what and who will endure tribulation. Tribulation is not the Wrath of God. Tribulation is the furnace that purifies the Church's gold, again Rev 2:8-11 and Rev 3:14-22.
Neither one of these verses support your theory You will find later on in those chapters they are told to repent they are faithless people who are not prepared. Who may still be saved after the trib has started.

Noah had to endure tribulation/persecution while he built the Ark.


Does not scripture show that the sons of God were indeed disobedient before the flood came? Today's Church is indeed disobedient and unrepentant.

We all suffer persecution we don't have to be in the trib for that. Christ suffered it and said we would to if we follow Him.
Obviously you haven't read who the sons of God were. They were actually responsible for the most part of the flood. There offspring were called the Nephilem.

2 Timothy 3:7
1This know also, that in the last days perilous times shall come.
2For men shall be lovers of their own selves, covetous, boasters, proud, blasphemers, disobedient to parents, unthankful, unholy,
3Without natural affection, trucebreakers, false accusers, incontinent, fierce, despisers of those that are good,
4Traitors, heady, highminded, lovers of pleasures more than lovers of God;
5Having a form of godliness, but denying the power thereof: from such turn away.
6For of this sort are they which creep into houses, and lead captive silly women laden with sins, led away with divers lusts,
7Ever learning, and never able to come to the knowledge of the truth.

Sounds very much like the days of Noah doesn't it? The above verses are right out of today's headlines. Pastors are molesting children. Deacons are leaving their wives and taking up with the pianist. Women are being ordained which is opposed to scripture. Gay men and women are put in positions of Church authority. How in all that is seen do you think the world is going to be able to discern what is the true Church if the Church is just like the world.

Remember that the 10 virgins were sleeping together and both's lamps were not illuminated. So that at the cry of the midnight hour BEHOLD THE BRIDEGROOM COMES! Both jump up to trim and light their lamps. Only 5 have light as they have oil. The Bridegroom receives them in and closes the door.

Who closed the door of the Ark? God.

Was any let in after it was closed? No

Exactly no one was let in after the door was closed and it was closed before the flood came. Not in the middle of it.

Was the 5 foolish virgins allowed in after the Bridal Chamber was closed? No

What caused the 10 to trim their lamps? The darkest hour of the night, and a cry. Indicative of faining hope, and hard tribulation/persecution. Five already have oil. Five go to buy it in the marketplace of the world. The marketplace of "religious diversity" that has never had oil. Isn't it strange that at this time the world will be going after the false religion of the Antichrist.

What's strange about it most of the world is all ready to accept it right now?

James 5:1-11
1Go to now, ye rich men, (Laodicea =modern Church)weep and howl for your miseries that shall come upon you.
2Your riches are corrupted, and your garments are motheaten.
3Your gold and silver is cankered; and the rust of them shall be a witness against you, and shall eat your flesh as it were fire. Ye have heaped treasure together for the last days.
4Behold, the hire of the labourers who have reaped down your fields, which is of you kept back by fraud, crieth: and the cries of them which have reaped are entered into the ears of the Lord of sabaoth.
5Ye have lived in pleasure on the earth, and been wanton; ye have nourished your hearts, as in a day of slaughter.
6Ye have condemned and killed the just; and he doth not resist you.
7Be patient therefore, brethren, unto the coming of the Lord. Behold, the husbandman waiteth for the precious fruit of the earth, and hath long patience for it, until he receive the early and latter rain.
8Be ye also patient; stablish your hearts: for the coming of the Lord draweth nigh.
9Grudge not one against another, brethren, lest ye be condemned: behold, the judge standeth before the door. (Again judgment begins at the House of God)
10Take, my brethren, the prophets, who have spoken in the name of the Lord, for an example of suffering affliction, and of patience.
11Behold, we count them happy which endure. Ye have heard of the patience of Job, and have seen the end of the Lord; that the Lord is very pitiful, and of tender mercy.

None of this disproves the pretribulation rapture nor does it prove midtrib. It's a matter of God's promises and He would have to take the Holy Spirit from every Christian on earth because it is Him the restrains and the Anti Christ cannot be revealed until He is taken out of the way. It is the wrath of Satan when he deceives the masses and He does this in the first half of the trib.
MB

 

[grainofwheat]

Its a significant point to make that Jesus was not one of those in wilderness that rebelled because of unbelief or at the time of Acts whom rejected the Messiah, clearly Jesus is NOT that Israel whom rejected Him. The fact of the matter is the Israel Paul referred to, was broken off, clearly Jesus was not broken off as they were; But they were broken off because they rejected their Messiah. You have Israel, you have Israel's Messiah, that's 2 different identities you are trying to classify into 1.

Darren

The cultivated olive tree was planted long before Israel was in the wilderness with Moses.
It goes back to at least Abraham who was justified by faith.Hebrews chapter 11 takes it back even farther than Abraham.

He came to His own,and His own did not receive Him. John 1:11
"His own is Israel."

Luke chapter 3:23-38 gives a complete circle from Adam to Jesus.
Jesus started this perfect circle by creating Adam and then leaving Heaven coming through the VIRGIN womb of Mary to COMPLETE THE CIRCLE.
Abraham Isaac Jacob [Israel] are in this direct lineage.

Jesus is the root and Israel is the natural branches of the SAME OLIVE TREE. My posting in #116 of this thread stated that God did not plant a new tree but grafted us into the original cultivated Olive Tree.
You have actually done a good job of proving my point [ better than me ] that Jesus is the root of this Tree. Israel was the original branches of this tree and some of them were cut off to make room for us Gentiles.[ but it is still the same original tree - not a new one , my original premise in #116 ].

 

[Darrenss1]

Luke chapter 3:23-38 gives a complete circle from Adam to Jesus.
Jesus started this perfect circle by creating Adam and then leaving Heaven coming through the VIRGIN womb of Mary to COMPLETE THE CIRCLE.

Abraham Isaac Jacob [Israel] are in this direct lineage.

The circle is fine, we agree on that, as for Jesus being "Israel" I don't see it that way.

Darren

 

[The Parson]

Call me silly but in the Gospels the Savior spoke of the end times events in a specific order. (Matt 24 & Mark 13) And those who speak of us not being appointed unto wrath haven't really separated the difference between God's wrath which we aren't appoint to and mans (anti-Christs) wrath. Or did I miss a post? Anyway, I'm still studying it but lean more towards a mid trib view than any other.

 

[webdog]

Call me silly but in the Gospels the Savior spoke of the end times events in a specific order. (Matt 24 & Mark 13) And those who speak of us not being appointed unto wrath haven't really separated the difference between God's wrath which we aren't appoint to and mans (anti-Christs) wrath. Or did I miss a post? Anyway, I'm still studying it but lean more towards a mid trib view than any other.

Since God is using the AC...is this not God's wrath against mankind?

 

[The Parson]

Since God is using the AC...is this not God's wrath against mankind?

Wonderful answer but permissive will doesn't always relate to God's direct Judgment does it? Consider Lot. He was vexed sorely over the evil in Sodom wasn't he? Yet before God's judgment, he was removed. And Job. Was he receiving the wrath of God? That's something to ponder on. We could even equate Noah I believe into the conversation.

The first section of the Saviors description in Matthew and Mark speaks of major persecution and then the calling out. Next we see God's wrath poured out. God didn't initiate the persecution in the first part of the Saviors description which really equates to tribulation did He?

Not debating, just pondering.