Tell me this is not worshipping Mary

[utilyan]

Sadly, there is nothing worse than some one who is sincere about their false worship. It's difficult to pull that person out of that false religion because they are genuinely motivated to doing what they think is right. "There is a way that seems right to man, but the end is the way of death..."

Well your doing a excellent job of providing scripture why YOU are wrong. How about providing some that says I am wrong.

You almost sound like good works is required or there is trouble.

I'm still waiting for you guys to step up to the plate.

ANY WORSHIP that is not LOVE is TRASH. One can't handle that message if everything they do is for a selfish reason.

 

[JonShaff]

Well your doing a excellent job of providing scripture why YOU are wrong. How about providing some that says I am wrong.

You almost sound like good works is required or there is trouble.

I'm still waiting for you guys to step up to the plate.

ANY WORSHIP that is not LOVE is TRASH. One can't handle that message if everything they do is for a selfish reason.

The reality is, unless it's God's Love Working through you, It's Trash. Have you been born again?

 

[utilyan]

The reality is, unless it's God's Love Working through you, It's Trash. Have you been born again?

The scripture I showed is AGAPE. Also known as Charity 1 Corinthians 13

Jesus Christ provides the Samaritan as the exemplar TO DO LIKEWISE.

Jesus had to provide the good Samaritan for same reason you only want to qualify yourself just like the Pharisees did.


God is love. 1 john 4.


We don't says well there is Good Works and then there is Good Works that is really EVIL work.

We don't say well there is LOVE and then there is LOVE that is really HATE.

Pharisees tried this trick with Jesus.

Matthew 12
33“Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for the tree is known by its fruit. 34“You brood of vipers, how can you, being evil, speak what is good? For the mouth speaks out of that which fills the heart. 35“The good man brings out of his good treasure what is good; and the evil man brings out of his evil treasure what is evil. 36“But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment. 37“For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”


The Pharisees want to say ok there is Love and then 2nd class love. Only they were capable of 1st class love.


So when Jesus did anything good, the Pharisees gave themselves the right to call it Evil.
Sound familiar?

Mathew 12
24But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “This man casts out demons only by Beelzebul the ruler of the demons.”
25And knowing their thoughts Jesus said to them, “Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste; and any city or house divided against itself will not stand. 26“If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then will his kingdom stand? 27“If I by Beelzebul cast out demons, by whom do your sons cast them out? For this reason they will be your judges. 28“But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. 29“Or how can anyone enter the strong man’s house and carry off his property, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house.


Jesus' comeback was not that he was good, play by their stupid game. But if indeed he is evil then satan casts out satan and he is divided against himself.

 

[Adonia]

So the pagan who feeds the homeless is worshipping God? The heathen who takes care of a puppy is worshipping God? I think you need to go back to Scripture to find out what really worshipping the Lord God Almighty is about.

Hey, isn't there a scriptural passage somewhere that says: (to paraphrase) What you do to the least of them, you do to me? Where is Christ? Who is Christ? Isn't he is the homeless person on the street? The elderly shut in at home? The sick person in the hospital? The prisoner locked up? Isn't giving alms to the poor a form of worship? Or visiting the sick? I think there is more than just one way to worship God.

 

[Adonia]

Sadly, there is nothing worse than some one who is sincere about their false worship. It's difficult to pull that person out of that false religion because they are genuinely motivated to doing what they think is right. "There is a way that seems right to man, but the end is the way of death..."

And you somehow have the correct form of worship? To my mind you have chased Jesus and his sacrifice out of your church's and instead opted for a pulpit instead of an altar. What happens there is one man giving you his interpretation of things, nothing more, nothing less.

 

[Adonia]

I'm quite familiar with the Fatima story. I believe it really happened just as described.

Only I'm convinced that because the MESSAGE from "Mary" is 100% opposed to what God says that the experience was not of God, but of the devil masquerading as an "angel of the light".

Again, I'm not trying to offend anyone - truly.

I just have to ask - are YOU familiar with what "Mary" taught that day?

I'm not trying to derail this thread, so I am starting a new one with the message from "her" in its entirety.

I really am not inclined to march behind statues and such, or to pray in front of one.The only thing the Catholic Church says about Fatima is that as a private revelation it is worthy of belief. It is not doctrine or anything else, and no one is forced to believe it.

 

[JonShaff]

The scripture I showed is AGAPE. Also known as Charity 1 Corinthians 13

Jesus Christ provides the Samaritan as the exemplar TO DO LIKEWISE.

Jesus had to provide the good Samaritan for same reason you only want to qualify yourself just like the Pharisees did.


God is love. 1 john 4.


We don't says well there is Good Works and then there is Good Works that is really EVIL work.

We don't say well there is LOVE and then there is LOVE that is really HATE.

Pharisees tried this trick with Jesus.

Matthew 12
33“Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for the tree is known by its fruit. 34“You brood of vipers, how can you, being evil, speak what is good? For the mouth speaks out of that which fills the heart. 35“The good man brings out of his good treasure what is good; and the evil man brings out of his evil treasure what is evil. 36“But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment. 37“For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”


The Pharisees want to say ok there is Love and then 2nd class love. Only they were capable of 1st class love.


So when Jesus did anything good, the Pharisees gave themselves the right to call it Evil.
Sound familiar?

Mathew 12
24But when the Pharisees heard this, they said, “This man casts out demons only by Beelzebul the ruler of the demons.”
25And knowing their thoughts Jesus said to them, “Any kingdom divided against itself is laid waste; and any city or house divided against itself will not stand. 26“If Satan casts out Satan, he is divided against himself; how then will his kingdom stand? 27“If I by Beelzebul cast out demons, by whom do your sons cast them out? For this reason they will be your judges. 28“But if I cast out demons by the Spirit of God, then the kingdom of God has come upon you. 29“Or how can anyone enter the strong man’s house and carry off his property, unless he first binds the strong man? And then he will plunder his house.


Jesus' comeback was not that he was good, play by their stupid game. But if indeed he is evil then satan casts out satan and he is divided against himself.

You misunderstand the fruit/tree parable

Good fruit doesn't make the tree good.

Good fruit comes from a good tree.

Are you born again?

 

[utilyan]

You misunderstand the fruit/tree parable

Good fruit doesn't make the tree good.

Good fruit comes from a good tree.

Are you born again?

I am born again. Jesus Christ is Lord. Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God.

There is more then one presentation of fruit/tree. Very similar.

The one I think your referring to is:

Matthew 7

15“Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16“You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? 17“So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18“A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19“Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20“So then, you will know them by their fruits.



The one I am showing you is Matthew 12. If you read the whole of Mathew 12, The good works Jesus is performing are being voided by the Pharisees on the grounds that the GOOD he does Is really only evil by Satan.

Jesus Christ is telling them in essence to get their story straight. MAKE the tree Good or MAKE it Evil.

We do good works like feeding the poor. If that's evil say that then. Don't be like the Pharisees and say hey they are doing "GOOD" and then well no its "EVIL".

Matthew 12

33“Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for the tree is known by its fruit. 34“You brood of vipers, how can you, being evil, speak what is good? For the mouth speaks out of that which fills the heart. 35“The good man brings out of his good treasure what is good; and the evil man brings out of his evil treasure what is evil. 36“But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment. 37“For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”


You accused of False worship, by the good works we do. So I'm telling you what Jesus tells Pharisees. Namely first call it evil from beginning to end. Evil tree to Evil fruit.

2ndly, Like Jesus If we do Good Works then Satan is divided against himself

Or like Jesus says If we are doing good works by the power the Devil, what are you doing Good works by the power of?



The Pharisees had this bigoted position that only they can do TRUE GOOD and everyone else is false good. Sound familiar?

This is why you are shown good Samaritan, this is why you are shown Satan divided against himself.


The Pharisees are still around today, if you don't know who they are, well I got some bad news for you.

 

[JonShaff]

I am born again. Jesus Christ is Lord. Jesus Christ has come in the flesh is from God.

There is more then one presentation of fruit/tree. Very similar.

The one I think your referring to is:

Matthew 7

15“Beware of the false prophets, who come to you in sheep’s clothing, but inwardly are ravenous wolves. 16“You will know them by their fruits. Grapes are not gathered from thorn bushes nor figs from thistles, are they? 17“So every good tree bears good fruit, but the bad tree bears bad fruit. 18“A good tree cannot produce bad fruit, nor can a bad tree produce good fruit. 19“Every tree that does not bear good fruit is cut down and thrown into the fire. 20“So then, you will know them by their fruits.



The one I am showing you is Matthew 12. If you read the whole of Mathew 12, The good works Jesus is performing are being voided by the Pharisees on the grounds that the GOOD he does Is really only evil by Satan.

Jesus Christ is telling them in essence to get their story straight. MAKE the tree Good or MAKE it Evil.

We do good works like feeding the poor. If that's evil say that then. Don't be like the Pharisees and say hey they are doing "GOOD" and then well no its "EVIL".

Matthew 12

33“Either make the tree good and its fruit good, or make the tree bad and its fruit bad; for the tree is known by its fruit. 34“You brood of vipers, how can you, being evil, speak what is good? For the mouth speaks out of that which fills the heart. 35“The good man brings out of his good treasure what is good; and the evil man brings out of his evil treasure what is evil. 36“But I tell you that every careless word that people speak, they shall give an accounting for it in the day of judgment. 37“For by your words you will be justified, and by your words you will be condemned.”


You accused of False worship, by the good works we do. So I'm telling you what Jesus tells Pharisees. Namely first call it evil from beginning to end. Evil tree to Evil fruit.

2ndly, Like Jesus If we do Good Works then Satan is divided against himself

Or like Jesus says If we are doing good works by the power the Devil, what are you doing Good works by the power of?



The Pharisees had this bigoted position that only they can do TRUE GOOD and everyone else is false good. Sound familiar?

This is why you are shown good Samaritan, this is why you are shown Satan divided against himself.


The Pharisees are still around today, if you don't know who they are, well I got some bad news for you.

Please share with us when you were born again, thank you!

 

[JonShaff]

If (only)good deeds constituted true worship then I know a lot of atheists who worship God. But we know thats not true. It's a matter of the Spirit and His Truth.

 

[utilyan]

Please share with us when you were born again, thank you!

Yes sir,
Sure its different from present company who might be more familiar with Evangelical Faith first that produces regeneration, or a Calvinist regeneration first that produces faith.

I was born again through baptism, water and spirit when I was a infant. Probably the biggest beef between Baptists and rest of the protestants.

I'm sure its debatable we can certainty start a thread, it will be fun.

Can I ask you a quickie myself, can you obtain salvation if God hasn't forgiven you?

 

[JonShaff]

Yes sir,
Sure its different from present company who might be more familiar with Evangelical Faith first that produces regeneration, or a Calvinist regeneration first that produces faith.

I was born again through baptism, water and spirit when I was a infant. Probably the biggest beef between Baptists and rest of the protestants.

I'm sure its debatable we can certainty start a thread, it will be fun.

Can I ask you a quickie myself, can you obtain salvation if God hasn't forgiven you?

A. I'm not sure how you could remember your born-again experience when you were too little to remember it

B. Salvation isn't something to obtain, can you please rephrase your question and i'd be happy to oblige!

 

[utilyan]

If (only)good deeds constituted true worship then I know a lot of atheists who worship God. But we know thats not true. It's a matter of the Spirit and His Truth.

I think you need to be more strict with splitting hairs and what you call a "GOOD deed".

Atheism ain't all that, Good father is always a father first. Its possible for someone to get caught up with such a perfect father they identify him as such without the notion of God.

There might even be biblical grounds to say there is no such thing as an atheist.

Romans 1
18For the wrath of God is revealed from heaven against all ungodliness and unrighteousness of men, who hold the truth in unrighteousness; 19Because that which may be known of God is manifest in them; for God hath shewed it unto them. 20For the invisible things of him from the creation of the world are clearly seen, being understood by the things that are made, even his eternal power and Godhead; so that they are without excuse:


2 timothy 2
24The Lord’s bond-servant must not be quarrelsome, but be kind to all, able to teach, patient when wronged, 25with gentleness correcting those who are in opposition, if perhaps God may grant them repentance leading to the knowledge of the truth, 26and they may come to their senses and escape from the snare of the devil, having been held captive by him to do his will.


Atheist doing GOOD WORKS assuming its actual GOOD....will do good to them and can even build a complete faith.

James 2
22You see that faith was active along with his works, and faith was completed by his works;



Having atheists do good works that's a good start for seeking God.

Acts 17
26and He made from one man every nation of mankind to live on all the face of the earth, having determined their appointed times and the boundaries of their habitation, 27that they would seek God, if perhaps they might grope for Him and find Him, though He is not far from each one of us; 28for in Him we live and move and exist, as even some of your own poets have said, ‘For we also are His children.’

 

[Revmitchell]

Rev,<-=-=-=-=-=-==-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=

Now I am going to provide you scripture showing love of God. The connection with love of neighbor.


ANY WORSHIP that is not LOVE is TRASH <--- this challenged has you whipped?

"Answer me this, how does someone worship a false idol? How do false religions engage in worship of their false God?"

The very moment you commit a sin of any kind it is idolatry. You found something more important then God. Every sin breaks the first. That's why we can condense it all into one command.

The very last time you sinned it was worship of a false idol. His name could have been greed, vanity, fear.

This post is not even coherent. You failed to answer my question.

 

[utilyan]

This post is not even coherent. You failed to answer my question.

No problem Rev.

Your question is this:
Answer me this, how does someone worship a false idol? How do false religions engage in worship of their false God?

My answer is with any sin.

 

[utilyan]

I stated ANY WORSHIP that is not LOVE is TRASH.

While some here say the WHOLE of worship is other things beside Love of God and Neighbor.

You guys avoided giving your definition of worship.


Debating this has been a piece of cake. If God was on your side you'd have no trouble coughing up your own definition.

 

[annsni]

I see that people are interchanging words here. Love is not worship. Worship is not love. They are two different entities. We cannot say that when we love something, we worship God. That's just ridiculous.

 

[utilyan]

I see that people are interchanging words here. Love is not worship. Worship is not love. They are two different entities. We cannot say that when we love something, we worship God. That's just ridiculous.

Remember what your saying right now. Because it going to be your greatest joy being so WRONG.

Worship that is not love is absolute TRASH. The problem here is you never thought this through.

none of you have given a definition.



We get this selfish point of view for glasses and you put them on God and it never works out because GOD IS GOOD.

Some peoples idea of God is worst then my idea of the Devil. Just heartless hideously evil.

Practically the spiritual version of Hitler.



James 1
27Pure and undefiled religion in the sight of our God and Father is this: to visit orphans and widows in their distress, and to keep oneself unstained by the world.


1 Timothy 1

5But the goal of our instruction is love from a pure heart and a good conscience and a sincere faith.

 

[Scarlett O.]

God is Love. You hate LOVE, its not surprise you hate God.

I think you've crossed the line here.

No one has said that they hate God, view him as Hitler, or hate love.

What we believe is that doing good deeds might be an expression of worship and it may be a sign of something else altogether, but it is not the definition of worship.

I started a new thread on the definition according to scriptures.

 

[annsni]

God is Love. You hate LOVE, its not surprise you hate God.

Interesting. By what bit of evidence can you accuse me of hating God?