1 Cor. 6:15 defines the nature of the TRUE body of Christ

[The Biblicist]

The problem, as I see it, is that you want to ignore the plain reading of Scripture to reinforce your own doctrine.

That is precisely my charge against your position.

There are a few places in Scripture that equate the Church with the Kingdom, the Body of Christ, etc. You don't like it, so you explain away the plain teaching of Scripture.

Don't generalize, be specific! If you be specific we will see how your argument holds up.

The signers of the Second London Confession were very careful in their definition of the Church Universal.

"The catholic or universal church, which (with respect to the internal work of the Spirit and truth of grace) may be called invisible, consists of the whole number of the elect, that have been, are, or shall be gathered into one, under Christ, the head thereof; and is the spouse, the body, the fulness of him that filleth all in all."

He ignores the context, which very carefully denies the existence of a present universal invisible church consisting of all the elect on earth.

Thus they said that one cannot know, for certain, the members of the Church Universal; only God knows, which seems to be a commonsense declaration. A good number of Baptist pastors signed both the first and second confessions, which would seem to indicate they saw the second as a fuller, not contradictory, statement of their faith.

This is consistent with their doctrine set forth in their associational minutes.

Now, I know that you believe that the Baptists began to slip into apostasy between the first and second London confessions. So be it.

Absolutely true!

I would recommend a reading of John Dagg on this topic. For him, the Church Universal is not invisible (except as it applies to the departed).

"Theological writers have maintained the existence of what they call the Visible Church Catholic, consisting of all who profess the true religion. They regard this as distinct from the body of true saints, which they designate the Invisible Church. The propriety of this designation we have denied, on the ground that true religion is visible in its effects. But the question as to the propriety of the names used to designate these bodies, is altogether different from the question whether these bodies actually exist. We have maintained the existence of what theological writers have called the Invisible Church, consisting of all who are spiritually united to Christ. Is there another body consisting of all who profess the true religion?

There is the problem - terminology! What Reformed Catholics call the universal invisible church the Bible teaches is the combination of the family and kingdom of God.The absolute evidence that our position is true and theirs is false is that their definition repudiates the Biblical fundamentals of salvation.

They have no modus operandi to place believers into their universal invisible church prior to Pentecost. Their church cannot precede its own "foundation" that consists FIRST of apostles and then SECOND prophets (Eph. 2:20 with 1 Cor. 12:28). They confuse the baptism in the Spirit with regeneration. We are "created in Christ" not by any kind of baptism but by quickening (Eph. 2:1-10).

The issue is clear and simple:

1. Spiritual separation = spiritual death
2. Spiritual union = spiritual life and giving life is QUICKENING not baptism

Their view leaves all pre-Pentecost saints in a state of spiritual separation/death from God, without life, light, love or holiness both in life and in death simply because they confuse the church with the family and kingdom of God.

The possibility of uniting all who profess the true religion in one mental conception, and of designating them by a collective name, cannot be disputed."

The bible calls that the "family" of God united by BIRTH not by baptism - Eph. 3:15

"Saul persecuted the church, and this he could not have done if the church had been invisible. We fully admit the visibility of the church, but we distinguish between visibility and organization."

Wrong again, it is both. It is an organization as it has government, officers, ordinances, membership requirements, discipline and a mission statement. It is an organism as it is an assembly of baptized believers. This is not to be confused with either the family or kingdom of God which BOTH PRECEDE THE CHURCH AND PRECEDE THE BAPTISM IN THE SPIRIT.

I can think of nothing to add to Dagg's observations on Scripture.

Well, you need to think a little bit more.

 

[The Biblicist]

Those saved by Godunder Old Covenant were saved on same basis we NT saints, by Crossof Christ on their behalf, but the did not experiencetefulness o the Spiri as e now hve Him, as that is themrk of NT chritian, t now been sealed ad all indwelt by Spirt!

Your position is absurd and unbiblical because there is NO SALVATION OUTSIDE OF CHRIST at any time anywhere and that is what you are forced to embrace. All born into this world are born "in Adam" and there is no salvation "in Adam." They must be "in Christ" to be saved at all and there is no baptism in the Spirit for your "in Christ" church doctrine prior to Pentecost.

 

[The Biblicist]

Church/Body/Bride are all used to describ those who are no in Chrit!

Absolutely 100% FALSE! The church cannot precede its own "foundation" which consists FIRST of apostles and then SECOND of prophets (Eph. 2:20 with 1 Cor. 12:28) and so there is no church prior to the book of Matthew - none - zilch, nada! Not only are you embracing church salvation but perverting the gospel of Christ that brought Adam, Eve, Abel, Abraham, Noah, David, etc. out of a state of spiritual separation from God by QUICKENING and placed them "in Christ" as there is NO SALVATION at all for anyone at anytime OUTSIDE OF CHRIST and to argue for that is foolish but that is what you are forced to defend. You have no baptism in the Spirit to place anyone "in Christ" prior to Pentecost - NONE! Your doctrine is nothing but reformed Roman Catholic church salvation.

 

[Yeshua1]

Absolutely 100% FALSE! The church cannot precede its own "foundation" which consists FIRST of apostles and then SECOND of prophets (Eph. 2:20 with 1 Cor. 12:28) and so there is no church prior to the book of Matthew - none - zilch, nada! Not only are you embracing church salvation but perverting the gospel of Christ that brought Adam, Eve, Abel, Abraham, Noah, David, etc. out of a state of spiritual separation from God by QUICKENING and placed them "in Christ" as there is NO SALVATION at all for anyone at anytime OUTSIDE OF CHRIST and to argue for that is foolish but that is what you are forced to defend. You have no baptism in the Spirit to place anyone "in Christ" prior to Pentecost - NONE! Your doctrine is nothing but reformed Roman Catholic church salvation.

The Church came into history at Pentacost....
And that was w theHoly Spirt did something hat He neverhad donbefoe, indwell ALLsaved proples!

 

[Yeshua1]

Your position is absurd and unbiblical because there is NO SALVATION OUTSIDE OF CHRIST at any time anywhere and that is what you are forced to embrace. All born into this world are born "in Adam" and there is no salvation "in Adam." They must be "in Christ" to be saved at all and there is no baptism in the Spirit for your "in Christ" church doctrine prior to Pentecost.

Th OT believers were saved by God by being includedin those saved by Cross, but the Spiri had not yyet comeinto world do indwell seal all saved, as Jesus not died/risen yey!

 

[The Biblicist]

The Church came into history at Pentacost....
And that was w theHoly Spirt did something hat He neverhad donbefoe, indwell ALLsaved proples!

You are confusing institutional indwelling with individual indwelling. Those promised the baptism in the Spirit were all WATER BAPTIZED BELIEVERS as the new institutional "house of God." Look at every passage prior to Pentecost up to Pentecost and you have that promise to that kind of people gathered in one place for this one time event unto the Jewish assembly.

Your theory is impossible as it demands that all prior to Pentecost are outside of Christ spiritually. Spiritual union is IMPOSSIBLE without spiritual indwelling - just think it through. Spiritual UNION is the UNION of God's spirit with your spirit and where does your spirit dwell INSIDE or OUTSIDE your body??? Where there is no spiritual union with God there is no life, light, holiness or love of God. Your view is impossible as it repudiates the very fundamentals of Biblical salvation.

 

[The Biblicist]

Th OT believers were saved by God by being includedin those saved by Cross, but the Spiri had not yyet comeinto world do indwell seal all saved, as Jesus not died/risen yey!

Absurd as there is no salvation "in Adam" and therefore all before the cross according to your theory are outside of Christ and there is no salvation of any kind outside of Christ. Furthermore, your theory is contradicted by the fact that redemptive benefits were applied to people prior to the cross as Abraham is not only an example of this but THE EXAMPLE for "all who are of faith" before and after the cross. You can't pick and choose some salvation benefits because there are no salvation benefits OUTSIDE OF CHRIST and that is what your theory demands for all before the Cross.

 

[The Biblicist]

there are only two classes of people, those who are "in Adam" without life, light, righteousness or love and those who are "in Christ."

there is only one way to become "in Christ" with regard to salvation, "created in Christ" by regeneration (Eph. 2:1-10) through BIRTH not through any kind of baptism.

All who received the baptism in the Spirit on Pentecost were water baptized beleivers who met in one place and in one accord as the new institutional house of God composed of living stones assembled and organized, with a public qualified officers, public qualified ordinances, public qualified mission, membership requirements, and disciplinary system.

To be spiritually separated is to be "in Adam' and spiritual dead and separated from God's life, light, holiness and love.

To be in spiritual union is to be "in Christ" and therefore existing in a state of spiritual life, light, holiness and love with God and indwelt by the Spirit as there is no spiritual "union" possible apart from indwelling and all who are not indwelt are "none of his" - Rom. 8:8-9.

 

[Yeshua1]

You are confusing institutional indwelling with individual indwelling. Those promised the baptism in the Spirit were all WATER BAPTIZED BELIEVERS as the new institutional "house of God." Look at every passage prior to Pentecost up to Pentecost and you have that promise to that kind of people gathered in one place for this one time event unto the Jewish assembly.

Your theory is impossible as it demands that all prior to Pentecost are outside of Christ spiritually. Spiritual union is IMPOSSIBLE without spiritual indwelling - just think it through. Spiritual UNION is the UNION of God's spirit with your spirit and where does your spirit dwell INSIDE or OUTSIDE your body??? Where there is no spiritual union with God there is no life, light, holiness or love of God. Your view is impossible as it repudiates the very fundamentals of Biblical salvation.

Believe that the Spiri Himself was able to regenerate tthem to be saved in the sense sins were being remittd/by passed over, so they had new hearts and mind t obey God, but not the enabling of the Spirit as we do now to help them....

No ONE thought regading this as some Reformed see it as I do, others as you do...

 

[Yeshua1]

there are only two classes of people, those who are "in Adam" without life, light, righteousness or love and those who are "in Christ."

there is only one way to become "in Christ" with regard to salvation, "created in Christ" by regeneration (Eph. 2:1-10) through BIRTH not through any kind of baptism.

All who received the baptism in the Spirit on Pentecost were water baptized beleivers who met in one place and in one accord as the new institutional house of God composed of living stones assembled and organized, with a public qualified officers, public qualified ordinances, public qualified mission, membership requirements, and disciplinary system.

To be spiritually separated is to be "in Adam' and spiritual dead and separated from God's life, light, holiness and love.

To be in spiritual union is to be "in Christ" and therefore existing in a state of spiritual life, light, holiness and love with God and indwelt by the Spirit as there is no spiritual "union" possible apart from indwelling and all who are not indwelt are "none of his" - Rom. 8:8-9.

ALL of us are now sealed and indwelt by the Spirit, asw e ALL have been baptized into Body of Christ...
That happens when we first believed, not when water baptized!

 

[The Biblicist]

ALL of us are now sealed and indwelt by the Spirit, asw e ALL have been baptized into Body of Christ...
That happens when we first believed, not when water baptized!

Do you not understand what you read????????? You keep repeating yourself but NEVER address the evidence placed right before your eyes. Your assertions are bogus, false, without any Biblical evidence. You act like a parrot that simply asserts and reasserts but NEVER deals with the evidence placed in front of your eyes. I don't know if you even try to read the posts as you simply assert and reassert with NOTHING to support your assertions.

The Baptism in the Spirit has NOTHING to do with salvation or personal indwelling and neither does water baptism. Ephesians 2:10 tells you plainly how one is placed "in Christ"!!! Not by any kind of baptism but by a creative act of God called QUICKENING!

 

[The Biblicist]

Believe that the Spiri Himself was able to regenerate tthem to be saved in the sense sins were being remittd/by passed over, so they had new hearts and mind t obey God, but not the enabling of the Spirit as we do now to help them....

No ONE thought regading this as some Reformed see it as I do, others as you do...

That is not what Ephesians 2:10 says! It says we are "CREATED in Christ Jesus" and that creative act has been more than once defined as the act of quickening (Eph 2:1,5). They are "in Christ" exactly as we are by regeneration and NEVER by any kind of baptism water or spirit.

Think it through instead of closing your mind to the evidence and just blindly repeating yourself. Without spiritual union in Christ there IS NO SALVATION OF ANY KIND AT ANY TIME FOR ANYONE. Without spiritual union you are still "IN ADAM" still spiritually dead, meaning still spiritually separated from life, light, holiness and the love of God and still his enemies and are "none of his" - Rom. 8:8-9.

 

[The Biblicist]

That is not what Ephesians 2:10 says! It says we are "CREATED in Christ Jesus" and that creative act has been more than once defined as the act of quickening (Eph 2:1,5). They are "in Christ" exactly as we are by regeneration and NEVER by any kind of baptism water or spirit.

Think it through instead of closing your mind to the evidence and just blindly repeating yourself. Without spiritual union in Christ there IS NO SALVATION OF ANY KIND AT ANY TIME FOR ANYONE. Without spiritual union you are still "IN ADAM" still spiritually dead, meaning still spiritually separated from life, light, holiness and the love of God and still his enemies and are "none of his" - Rom. 8:8-9.

Your soteriological system requires you to believe what you believe because it is a FALSE system.

 

[The Biblicist]

You cannot pick and choose what aspect of the cross can be applied before the cross. It is either all or nothing at all. If it is nothing at all then all before the cross lived and died "in Adam" spiritual separated from God both in life and in death. Abraham is proof your system of soteriology is false.

 

[rsr]

I am glad that you responded, but I anticipated your response.

We will never agree on this.You think the signers of the Second Confession were apostates. You think I am a "Reformed Catholic/" and not really a Baptist at all.

I can live with that because you are manifestly wrong; I cling to the basic Baptist values. You reject that, and I could not care less because you have drawn Baptist values so tightly as so to exclude everyone but your tiny circle.

 

[Iconoclast]

"The Biblicist,

It does not include OT prophet and that can be proven by two clear contextual based reasons:

1. The order, apostles precede prophets
2. Paul explicitly repeats this same order in 1 Cor. 12:28 and specifically states "secondarily prophets"
3. In both cases it is a NT. Context.

These passages do speak of a NT.Context,. and in EPH 3-tells us the primary function of the NT prophets;
4 Whereby, when ye read, ye may understand my knowledge in the mystery of Christ)

5 Which in other ages was not made known unto the sons of men, as it is now revealed unto his holy apostles and prophets by the Spirit;

6 That the Gentiles should be fellowheirs, and of the same body, and partakers of his promise in Christ by the gospel:
That gentiles would be on equal footing was the mystery now revealed.

The reason I say it would include the OT. prophets is the new testamant says so.;
20 And he shall send Jesus Christ, which before was preached unto you:

21 Whom the heaven must receive until the times of restitution of all things, which God hath spoken by the mouth of all his holy prophets since the world began.

22 For Moses truly said unto the fathers, A prophet shall the Lord your God raise up unto you of your brethren, like unto me; him shall ye hear in all things whatsoever he shall say unto you.

23 And it shall come to pass, that every soul, which will not hear that prophet, shall be destroyed from among the people.

24 Yea, and all the prophets from Samuel and those that follow after, as many as have spoken, have likewise foretold of these days.

25 Ye are the children of the prophets, and of the covenant which God made with our fathers, saying unto Abraham, And in thy seed shall all the kindreds of the earth be blessed.

 

[Iconoclast]

The Biblicist,

That assembly has not yet assembled because that heaven and earth has not yet been created. Abraham was ON EARTH looking for that city, as the fulfillment will be ON EARTH as the New Jerusalem "CAME DOWN" (Rev. 21:1-2).

John saw several groups assembled in heaven...

rev6
9 And when he had opened the fifth seal, I saw under the altar the souls of them that were slain for the word of God, and for the testimony which they held:

10 And they cried with a loud voice, saying, How long, O Lord, holy and true, dost thou not judge and avenge our blood on them that dwell on the earth?

11 And white robes were given unto every one of them; and it was said unto them, that they should rest yet for a little season, until their fellowservants also and their brethren, that should be killed as they were, should be fulfilled.

here is another;rev7;
9 After this I beheld, and, lo, a great multitude, which no man could number, of all nations, and kindreds, and people, and tongues, stood before the throne, and before the Lamb, clothed with white robes, and palms in their hands;

10 And cried with a loud voice, saying, Salvation to our God which sitteth upon the throne, and unto the Lamb.

11 And all the angels stood round about the throne, and about the elders and the four beasts, and fell before the throne on their faces, and worshipped God,

12 Saying, Amen: Blessing, and glory, and wisdom, and thanksgiving, and honour, and power, and might, be unto our God for ever and ever. Amen.

13 And one of the elders answered, saying unto me, What are these which are arrayed in white robes? and whence came they?

14 And I said unto him, Sir, thou knowest. And he said to me, These are they which came out of great tribulation, and have washed their robes, and made them white in the blood of the Lamb.

15 Therefore are they before the throne of God, and serve him day and night in his temple: and he that sitteth on the throne shall dwell among them.

16 They shall hunger no more, neither thirst any more; neither shall the sun light on them, nor any heat.

17 For the Lamb which is in the midst of the throne shall feed them, and shall lead them unto living fountains of waters: and God shall wipe away all tears from their eyes.
They were seen by John.....assembled In heaven

 

[Iconoclast]

The Biblicist,

The church is treated and described according to its design,purpose and profession and Acts 20:28-30 is indisputable proof that redemptive language is ascribed to a local visible institution that MAY contain lost members, but the redemptive language is applied due to its design, purpose and profession. The exact very same "flock" that is redeemed by the blood of God in verse 28 is the very exact same "flock" in verses 29-30 that can contain potential apostates who leave it and take members out of it as well as enter it and pervert it.

It is the specified "elders" at Ephesus (v. 17) who have been made overseers of this kind of church in verse 28. Therefore to argue that this "church" or "flock" in verse 28 cannot include false professors because of the redemptive language used to describe it is contradicted by the very context. This is merely the common way of addressing churches and Christians, according to their profession and we do the same thing today. When you meet a person for the first time and they profess to be a Christians and say the right things you address them as "brother" because that fits their profession, although, they MAY not be actually saved. Paul addresses the churches he founded in the very same manner.

Paul did not instruct them that apostates were real parts of the body...he warns them to watch for these wolves who rise up speaking perverse things....not to "accept them" as part of the institutional body.
25 And now, behold, I know that ye all, among whom I have gone preaching the kingdom of God, shall see my face no more.

26 Wherefore I take you to record this day, that I am pure from the blood of all men.

27 For I have not shunned to declare unto you all the counsel of God.

28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves, and to all the flock, over the which the Holy Ghost hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God, which he hath purchased with his own blood.

29 For I know this, that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.

30 Also of your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things, to draw away disciples after them.

31 Therefore watch, and remember, that by the space of three years I
ceased not to warn every one night and day with tears.

 

[Iconoclast]

"The Biblicist,
28 Take heed therefore unto yourselves and to all the flock, over which the Holy Spirit hath made you overseers, to feed the church of God which He hath purchased with His own blood.
29 For I know this: that after my departing shall grievous wolves enter in among you, not sparing the flock.
30 Also from among your own selves shall men arise, speaking perverse things to draw away disciples after them.

1. Those appointed as overseers of the flock in verse 28 are the Ephesian elders - as "you" has for its contextual antecedent with elders in verse 17. So your universal invisible church is pastored by Christ or by these ephesian elders?????? How do we contact these elders the Holy Spirit made overseers of this kind of church?

The Ephesian elders pastored that church while they were on earth...
They are not on earth now B....where do they assemble, and who is their pastor now?

;2. The "flock" in verse 28 is the same "flock" in verse 29-30 which wolves can "ENTER IN". Can wolves "enter in" your universal invisible church? If so, how?

Wolves came in ....among the true saints in the earthly physical assembly. Those wolves have no part with those assembled in heaven.

3. Is it wrong for these elders to return to Ephesus and tell the congregation of Ephesus that Christ "purchased with his own blood" that congregation? If so, why?

Any pastor of any local assembly can tell a congregation that God has purchased His people by His covenant death.
Congregations of assembled people are cautioned to examine themselves....to make sure they are in the faith;
5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?

6 But I trust that ye shall know that we are not reprobates.

7 Now I pray to God that ye do no evil; not that we should appear approved, but that ye should do that which is honest, though we be as reprobates.

4. Members of this flock can depart from it "not sparing the flock.......draw away." How can members of your universal invisible flock be drawn away from it?

Not one.....that is part of what you do not understand. I have said several times now....the complete uninversal flock as you call it....will fully assemble on the last day.
All saints from all time will be there. I reject your unscriptural divisions of the body of Christ. I reject "your guest theory".
There are degrees of reward....but no two tier salvation. This jumping around between the term family , house, and church is quite over worked in your theory.

 

[Iconoclast]

The Biblicist,

It is obvious we don't agree and it is just as obvious that you and Martin can't prove my expositions are wrong as you jump and run, pit and run. My frustration is due to these kind of responses.

I understand Martins posts..I think he understands mine. I do not ask him to agree with everything i offer as I take some stands that are still a work in progress.

Context! I John is not written about the church but about how one can know they are a true child of God.

I know the context of 1 jn.

You are READING INTO the text "church" when it is not found. He is not speaking about church membership but about FAMILY membership as the NEW BIRTH is the continued theme of this book.

That is your assertion....You run wild with the term family...
let me ask you...with your view....How can someone possibly be in the FAMILY as you like to call it....but then go out from the family??? Do they lose salvation? Do they become unborn? Your view certainly makes no sense here at all.
In my view...they went out from us[The church being the us}

You make these unfounded assertions, jerk texts out of context and then proclaim you have defended your point when you have not.

That looks exactly what you did here.

CONTEXT!!!! He is not speaking of the church in verse 19 but of the PHYSICAL BODY of the individual believer. He is addressing them according to their profession. Paul is not omniscient, but simply addressing them in terms that fit their profession, baptism, and membership.

The church...is made up of members in particular. Yes they have bodies which are temples of the Spirit of God. These assembled saints are the church.

CONTEXT!!! That is simply an impossible interpretation and if you want to challenge me to prove that, then open a thread on it and I will gladly demonstrate it.

You use this as a defense and I am sure we will get to these verses over time...not now. I have been up since 330am, and need to wake at that time tommorow , drive 300 miles in order to make service.

He is actually repudiating your view. That man turned out to be a brother (2 Cor. 2:6) and Paul was merely admitting his inability to discern hearts and commanding them to treat them as professed brethren until it could be proven they were not.

Not at all....the man was to be put out, unless and until he repented. In that case , looks like he did. It does not change pauls use of the phrase"called a brother".

When he speaks of "without" he means those outside the congregational membership at Corinth. He is not talking about a universal invisible church membership.

Where did I say there was an earthly UIC....??? put up or shut up as you like to say. I told you several times I believe in local church only ....on earth...