Church Fellowship

[The Biblicist]

Every church ought to have minimal qualifications for bringing a person into church fellowship. That is what church membership is all about, bringing a person into church communion or church fellowship. The Scripture according to precepts demands that both profession in the gospel and scriptural baptism MUST preceded bringing a person into church fellowship. This is seen in the Great Commission. The Great Commission is not a suggestion but the primary verb is found in the imperative mode - the mode of command. The command is to make disciples and the order given is first go with the gospel to the lost nations - evangelization is first. Second, administer baptism to "them" or those out of the nations that received the word of the gospel. THIRD bring them into church fellowship or assemble them under instruction how to observe all things commanded. This order is strictly observed in Acts 2:40-41 proving it is the order commanded in the Great Commission by apostolic example:

1. As many as received the word - the gospel Peter just preached
2. Were baptized
3. "added unto them"
4. Church fellowship follows - instruction in the apostles doctrine, breaking of bread, prayer, etc.

This commission reproduces "disciples" that are LIKE FAITH AND ORDER in the same gospel, same baptism and same doctrine and practice. That is the meaning of "disciple" one who follows the Master or is a duplicate of the mold. It is not one who is an inovater or one who produces another system or order for making disciples. Those who do that are called "heretics" in the Scriptures not "disciples."

Luke uses the periphrastic construct in Acts 2:41 translated "continued stedfastly" which is a combination of verbs, the imperfect linked with the present tense "to be" verb. Luke is most likely writing after the two years of imprisonment by Paul in Rome. The periphrastic construct is saying from the writers perspective that on the day of Pentecost this was the practice that began at some previous point in the past (imperfect verb) which context shows to be with Christ in his ministry with the church (Acts 1;21-22) and continued to some undetermined point in the future that is further clarified by the present tense verb meaning this has been the continued practice from the ministry of Christ until at least two yeasrs after Paul reached Rome.

Moreover, after Luke has spelled out this practice, from this point forward he simply summarizes this practice by taking the word "added" in verse 40 and repeating it whenever people were saved afterwards and "added" unto them - MEANING THEY WERE ADDED EXACTLY AS SPELLED OUT IN ACTS 2:40-41 or as the periphrastic construct demands. The precise numbers are given for such additions between Acts 2-5. However, when the numbers began to be too many to add up, he changes math terms from "added" to "multiplied" but through the very same means (1) preaching the gospel; (2) baptism; (3) added to church fellowship.

These are the biblical prerequisites for adding a person to church fellowship. These are the very same Biblical prerequisities for determining the basis of church fellowship with other congregations of Christians. If they do not preach the SAME gospel they are not qualified to bring into church fellowship (v. 19). If they do not administer the SAME baptism (v. 19) they are not qualified to bring into church fellowship (v. 20).If they don't teach the SAME essentials of the faith in addition to the gospel and baptism they are not qualified to be brought into church fellowship.

These Biblical prerequisites for church fellowship PROTECTS the church from apostasy. Church discipline removes BRETHREN from church fellowship who depart from the faith once delivered (2 Thes. 3:6-14; Rom. 16:17-18; 1 Cor. 5:6-13) protecting the church from being leavened from within the "fellowship" of the church.

Congregations should not fellowship with other congregations, or enter into fellowship with such congregations that preach another gospel, administer another baptism or teach other things opposed to essentials of New Testament faith and practice. For example, to pervert baptism is to pervert the gospel as baptism is a symbol of the gospel. The purpose of a symbol is to provide an exact visible form that will convey an intended truth. The precise form of baptism conveys the truth of the gospel, so perversion of baptism is perversion of the gospel truth. Certainly that does not mean those who pervert the symbol, thus the truth of the gospel are lost, but does mean they are proclaiming a false gospel by their perverted ordinances.

Whatever you bring into the area of "church fellowship" will leaven your own congregation by either strenghtening them in the faith once delivered or weakening them.

No church should bring into "church" fellowship any institutional body of Christians that they would exclude from their own membership if they embraced the same doctrines as that body of Christians as that would not only be inconsistent but would be bring fire into ones bosom. So another guideline for "church" fellowship is, would we exclude members from within our own body if they embraced the same doctrines of this other church??

So the Biblical criteria or prerquisties for "church" fellowhip with other churhes are:

1. Same gospel
2. Same baptism
3. Same other essential truths of scripture
4. Same criteria used for church discipline to deny fellowship with other churches.

In direct contrast to "church" fellowship, PERSONAL INDIVIDUAL fellowship can be entered into on PERSONAL non-church level with anyone who professes the truth of the gospel. This level of fellowship is a ministry to influence others toward embracing truths where you can mutually enter into the next level of fellowship - church fellowship.

 

[Yeshua1]

Every church ought to have minimal qualifications for bringing a person into church fellowship. That is what church membership is all about, bringing a person into church communion or church fellowship. The Scripture according to precepts demands that both profession in the gospel and scriptural baptism MUST preceded bringing a person into church fellowship. This is seen in the Great Commission. The Great Commission is not a suggestion but the primary verb is found in the imperative mode - the mode of command. The command is to make disciples and the order given is first go with the gospel to the lost nations - evangelization is first. Second, administer baptism to "them" or those out of the nations that received the word of the gospel. THIRD bring them into church fellowship or assemble them under instruction how to observe all things commanded. This order is strictly observed in Acts 2:40-41 proving it is the order commanded in the Great Commission by apostolic example:

1. As many as received the word - the gospel Peter just preached
2. Were baptized
3. "added unto them"
4. Church fellowship follows - instruction in the apostles doctrine, breaking of bread, prayer, etc.

This commission reproduces "disciples" that are LIKE FAITH AND ORDER in the same gospel, same baptism and same doctrine and practice. That is the meaning of "disciple" one who follows the Master or is a duplicate of the mold. It is not one who is an inovater or one who produces another system or order for making disciples. Those who do that are called "heretics" in the Scriptures not "disciples."

Luke uses the periphrastic construct in Acts 2:41 translated "continued stedfastly" which is a combination of verbs, the imperfect linked with the present tense "to be" verb. Luke is most likely writing after the two years of imprisonment by Paul in Rome. The periphrastic construct is saying from the writers perspective that on the day of Pentecost this was the practice that began at some previous point in the past (imperfect verb) which context shows to be with Christ in his ministry with the church (Acts 1;21-22) and continued to some undetermined point in the future that is further clarified by the present tense verb meaning this has been the continued practice from the ministry of Christ until at least two yeasrs after Paul reached Rome.

Moreover, after Luke has spelled out this practice, from this point forward he simply summarizes this practice by taking the word "added" in verse 40 and repeating it whenever people were saved afterwards and "added" unto them - MEANING THEY WERE ADDED EXACTLY AS SPELLED OUT IN ACTS 2:40-41 or as the periphrastic construct demands. The precise numbers are given for such additions between Acts 2-5. However, when the numbers began to be too many to add up, he changes math terms from "added" to "multiplied" but through the very same means (1) preaching the gospel; (2) baptism; (3) added to church fellowship.

These are the biblical prerequisites for adding a person to church fellowship. These are the very same Biblical prerequisities for determining the basis of church fellowship with other congregations of Christians. If they do not preach the SAME gospel they are not qualified to bring into church fellowship (v. 19). If they do not administer the SAME baptism (v. 19) they are not qualified to bring into church fellowship (v. 20).If they don't teach the SAME essentials of the faith in addition to the gospel and baptism they are not qualified to be brought into church fellowship.

These Biblical prerequisites for church fellowship PROTECTS the church from apostasy. Church discipline removes BRETHREN from church fellowship who depart from the faith once delivered (2 Thes. 3:6-14; Rom. 16:17-18; 1 Cor. 5:6-13) protecting the church from being leavened from within the "fellowship" of the church.

Congregations should not fellowship with other congregations, or enter into fellowship with such congregations that preach another gospel, administer another baptism or teach other things opposed to essentials of New Testament faith and practice. For example, to pervert baptism is to pervert the gospel as baptism is a symbol of the gospel. The purpose of a symbol is to provide an exact visible form that will convey an intended truth. The precise form of baptism conveys the truth of the gospel, so perversion of baptism is perversion of the gospel truth. Certainly that does not mean those who pervert the symbol, thus the truth of the gospel are lost, but does mean they are proclaiming a false gospel by their perverted ordinances.

Whatever you bring into the area of "church fellowship" will leaven your own congregation by either strenghtening them in the faith once delivered or weakening them.

No church should bring into "church" fellowship any institutional body of Christians that they would exclude from their own membership if they embraced the same doctrines as that body of Christians as that would not only be inconsistent but would be bring fire into ones bosom. So another guideline for "church" fellowship is, would we exclude members from within our own body if they embraced the same doctrines of this other church??

So the Biblical criteria or prerquisties for "church" fellowhip with other churhes are:

1. Same gospel
2. Same baptism
3. Same other essential truths of scripture
4. Same criteria used for church discipline to deny fellowship with other churches.

In direct contrast to "church" fellowship, PERSONAL INDIVIDUAL fellowship can be entered into on PERSONAL non-church level with anyone who professes the truth of the gospel. This level of fellowship is a ministry to influence others toward embracing truths where you can mutually enter into the next level of fellowship - church fellowship.

Basically, you are saying that ONLY certain Baptist churches are able to do the bibical thing here....
Would say that there are Presby Christians who practice diiferent water baptising then us, and still in biblical fellowship!

 

[The Biblicist]

Basically, you are saying that ONLY certain Baptist churches are able to do the bibical thing here....
Would say that there are Presby Christians who practice diiferent water baptising then us, and still in biblical fellowship!

Yeshua this is precisely why I have placed you on ignore. If you have a rough time understanding English then why try to respond what you don't understand? Instead of dealing with the evidence set before you, you simply ignore it and either assert your disproven theories or ask questions that the OP already has answered. You give me a good reason why I should even respond??????

 

[Yeshua1]

Yeshua this is precisely why I have placed you on ignore. If you have a rough time understanding English then why try to respond what you don't understand? Instead of dealing with the evidence set before you, you simply ignore it and either assert your disproven theories or ask questions that the OP already has answered. You give me a good reason why I should even respond??????

We, myself and others here like Martin, have been trying to reason with you from scriptures, but you are treating us like Catholics do when shown not the true Church!

 

[The Biblicist]

We, myself and others here like Martin, have been trying to reason with you from scriptures, but you are treating us like Catholics do when shown not the true Church!

What have you ever offered as substance for any kind of rebuttal????????????

 

[JamesL]

....The Scripture according to precepts demands that both profession in the gospel and scriptural baptism MUST preceded bringing a person into church fellowship. This is seen in the Great Commission.....

Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but I have a train of thought that goes to a particular end.

It seems you are suggesting that the Great Commission culminates in baptism.

However, what's known as the Great Commission says that we are to make disciples...

Consider what Jesus said in John 8:31 "if you continue in my word then you are truly my disciples"

So it seems from scripture that the making of disciples takes a lifetime, whereas it begins with the gospel and baptism and fellowship

If we accept into fellowship only those who are certainly disciples, then we must only invite dead people into the fellowship. And we should all be excluded from fellowship until we die

 

[MB]

Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but I have a train of thought that goes to a particular end.

It seems you are suggesting that the Great Commission culminates in baptism.

However, what's known as the Great Commission says that we are to make disciples...

Consider what Jesus said in John 8:31 "if you continue in my word then you are truly my disciples"

So it seems from scripture that the making of disciples takes a lifetime, whereas it begins with the gospel and baptism and fellowship

If we accept into fellowship only those who are certainly disciples, then we must only invite dead people into the fellowship. And we should all be excluded from fellowship until we die

Very well said and true every word. There are no perfect Christians in this world. We all have room for improvement. I believe this is what fellowship is all about.
MB

 

[Yeshua1]

What have you ever offered as substance for any kind of rebuttal????????????

Have you read wht Brother Martin posted to you, he was using Loads of scripture!

 

[The Biblicist]

Maybe I'm reading this wrong, but I have a train of thought that goes to a particular end.

It seems you are suggesting that the Great Commission culminates in baptism.

No, that is not what I am suggesting at all. I am demanding that baptism is essential to obedience of the Great Commission. The Great Commission "culminates" in teaching them how to observe all things whatsoever Christ commanded or membership in a observing obeying congregation.

 

[JamesL]

No, that is not what I am suggesting at all. I am demanding that baptism is essential to obedience of the Great Commission. The Great Commission "culminates" in teaching them how to observe all things whatsoever Christ commanded or membership in a observing obeying congregation.

I'm not 100% sold on a water baptism view of Matt. 28:19 - Really I'm not sold on it at all. That doesn't mean I disagree on baptism being essential, though.

Make disciples....immersing them "into" the name....teaching them...

I don't see these as separate components, but 3 ways of saying the same thing.

In the making of a disciple, we immerse him into the Name by which he has been called - i.e. teach him to obey all which Christ commanded.

 

[The Biblicist]

I'm not 100% sold on a water baptism view of Matt. 28:19 - Really I'm not sold on it at all. That doesn't mean I disagree on baptism being essential, though.

Make disciples....immersing them "into" the name....teaching them...

I don't see these as separate components, but 3 ways of saying the same thing.

In the making of a disciple, we immerse him into the Name by which he has been called - i.e. teach him to obey all which Christ commanded.

The baptism in Matthew 28:19 is administered by men "ye" to men "them." There is no other kind of baptism in the New Testament administered by men to men except water baptism. Second, this gospel and baptism are part of the "all things" Christ "have" already taught (Jn. 3:16; 4:1-2). Third, "in the name" simply means as authorized or in keeping with the will (see Acts 4:7 on the Biblical idea behind doing something "in the name of" someone). Fourth, there is no immersing disciples into his name in any other manner prior to Matthew 28:19 than in water baptism. John baptized repentant believers in reference to Christ (Acts 19:4).

 

[Yeshua1]

No, that is not what I am suggesting at all. I am demanding that baptism is essential to obedience of the Great Commission. The Great Commission "culminates" in teaching them how to observe all things whatsoever Christ commanded or membership in a observing obeying congregation.

We are to be witnesses as saints to all people we encounter, to teach them and live for Jesus, not just when assembled, correct?

 

[The Biblicist]

We are to be witnesses as saints to all people we encounter, to teach them and live for Jesus, not just when assembled, correct?

I don't know why I bother to answer you as you never address anything I say but simply assert your disproven opinions. This text has nothing to do with personal individual responsibility to witness to the lost. All saved people have that responsibility, but this text is addressed to a contextually defined "ye" as opposed to those addressed as "them."

"Them" are saved but unbaptized, and untaught and they have NO AUTHORITY to administer this commission or to make disciples. This contextual "ye" is the institutional church of Christ, or baptized believers in an congregational membership or those already in a discipling state - saved, baptized and assembling for instruction. The "ye" represent a corporate congregational body of baptized believers whose mission as a church is to make disciples after this process. This is exactly what we see congregations doing throughout the book of Acts. All preachers in the book of Acts are CHURCH MEMBERS sent out.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Every church ought to have minimal qualifications for bringing a person into church fellowship.

I think you mean 'minimum' qualifications. 'Minimal' means 'very minute' or 'slight.'.
On that basis ('minimum') I quite agree with you. Every church should do everything to ensure that those coming into membership are true Christians. This can never be done with absolute certainty, but we can do our very best.
A Baptist church is entitled to demand that all its members have been baptized as adults by immersion on their profession of faith.

Where I disagree with you is your contention that we should not have fellowship with other Bible-believing churches that have a different understanding of baptism.

'Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand' (Romans 14:4).

'These six things the Lord hates, yes, seven are an abomination to him...........One who sows discord among brethren' (Proverbs 6:16, 19).

 

[The Biblicist]

I think you mean 'minimum' qualifications. 'Minimal' means 'very minute' or 'slight.'.

No Mr. Look Down Your Nose, I mean "minimal" as you need to get a better dictionary as the term "minimal" can also be used to mean "least in amount" or "least in number" or as the Oxford Dictionary uses it "minimal amount". It is not that your definition is wrong, but it is simply not that restricted as your limited definition suggests.

Where I disagree with you is your contention that we should not have fellowship with other Bible-believing churches that have a different understanding of baptism.

'Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand' (Romans 14:4).

'These six things the Lord hates, yes, seven are an abomination to him...........One who sows discord among brethren' (Proverbs 6:16, 19).

Your application of these verses is simply stupid!! No one is judging anyone's PERSON. The scriptures demand baptism prior to church membership (Mt. 28:19-20; Acts 2:41). The scriptues demand baptism is by immersion. The Scriptures define what is and what is not a NT Church by both precepts and examples. In reality you are judging God and His standards as optional and non-essential. It is not judging a person by defining true and false baptism. It is not judging any person by defining what is a true or false church. It is not judging anyone's person by refusing to fellowship with them in what scriptures clearly do not teach but condemn. The UIC is nothing but a doctrine of discord among professed brethren and always has been and always will be because it is unbiblical.

 

[The Biblicist]

I think you mean 'minimum' qualifications. 'Minimal' means 'very minute' or 'slight.'.
On that basis ('minimum') I quite agree with you. Every church should do everything to ensure that those coming into membership are true Christians. This can never be done with absolute certainty, but we can do our very best.
A Baptist church is entitled to demand that all its members have been baptized as adults by immersion on their profession of faith.

Where I disagree with you is your contention that we should not have fellowship with other Bible-believing churches that have a different understanding of baptism.

'Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand' (Romans 14:4).

'These six things the Lord hates, yes, seven are an abomination to him...........One who sows discord among brethren' (Proverbs 6:16, 19).

Martin you falsely charge that proper definition of a NT church and refusing to fellowship with an entity that is not a true NT church is judging the individuals of such a institution or causing division between brethren. The real fact is that those who pervert the Biblical institution are the ones causing division by their defiance and perversion of God's Words Word.

Moreover, you have never been able to find in the NT any such thing called a "church" consisting of unbaptized persons or unregenerate infant membership. You have never been able to respond to the facts that the Bible clearly by precept and example condemns the very thing you want to defend - a paedobaptist entity that calls itself the church of Christ.

Moreover, the very nature of a paedobaptist congregation perverts the gospel of Christ as it intentionally and purposely consists of unregenerates.

Morover, the very nature of their baptism perverts the gospel of Christ as it is a denial of gospel conversion both by its mode and subjects. The divine purpose of a symbol is to provide an explicit visible form that conveys an intended truth. Baptism by its very Biblical designed mode and subject is to convey the gospel and truth of salvation which paedobaptism and paedbaptist congregations repudiate and pervert by the very mode and subject of their baptism and by the very membership they INTENTIONALLY consist of.

You RECOGNIZE what God's Word repudiates as both baptism and constitution of what scripture demands to be recognized as church of Christ.

 

[Yeshua1]

Martin you falsely charge that proper definition of a NT church and refusing to fellowship with an entity that is not a true NT church is judging the individuals of such a institution or causing division between brethren. The real fact is that those who pervert the Biblical institution are the ones causing division by their defiance and perversion of God's Words Word.

Moreover, you have never been able to find in the NT any such thing called a "church" consisting of unbaptized persons or unregenerate infant membership. You have never been able to respond to the facts that the Bible clearly by precept and example condemns the very thing you want to defend - a paedobaptist entity that calls itself the church of Christ.

Moreover, the very nature of a paedobaptist congregation perverts the gospel of Christ as it intentionally and purposely consists of unregenerates.

Morover, the very nature of their baptism perverts the gospel of Christ as it is a denial of gospel conversion both by its mode and subjects. The divine purpose of a symbol is to provide an explicit visible form that conveys an intended truth. Baptism by its very Biblical designed mode and subject is to convey the gospel and truth of salvation which paedobaptism and paedbaptist congregations repudiate and pervert by the very mode and subject of their baptism and by the very membership they INTENTIONALLY consist of.

You RECOGNIZE what God's Word repudiates as both baptism and constitution of what scripture demands to be recognized as church of Christ.

Regardless of how they choose to understand mode of water Batising, are not those churches who teach the Gospel all NT churches?

Bible allows for much more latitude in this discussion then your LM beliefs seem to allow for!

 

[Yeshua1]

I think you mean 'minimum' qualifications. 'Minimal' means 'very minute' or 'slight.'.
On that basis ('minimum') I quite agree with you. Every church should do everything to ensure that those coming into membership are true Christians. This can never be done with absolute certainty, but we can do our very best.
A Baptist church is entitled to demand that all its members have been baptized as adults by immersion on their profession of faith.

Where I disagree with you is your contention that we should not have fellowship with other Bible-believing churches that have a different understanding of baptism.

'Who are you to judge another's servant? To his own master he stands or falls. Indeed, he will be made to stand, for God is able to make him stand' (Romans 14:4).

'These six things the Lord hates, yes, seven are an abomination to him...........One who sows discord among brethren' (Proverbs 6:16, 19).

Guess from his point of view should not even had the reformation, not learn from any who taught who were not LM Baptists!

And I jusy find it very hard to exclude from fellowship sinners who Jesus died for and saved into His Body, just due to how they disagree with me on certain issues!

 

[The Biblicist]

Regardless of how they choose to understand mode of water Batising, are not those churches who teach the Gospel all NT churches?

Bible allows for much more latitude in this discussion then your LM beliefs seem to allow for!

Listen, they pervert the gospel in their baptism and the very manner their congregation is constituted and no GOSPEL PERVERTING congregation is a New Testament church.

God killed born again believing church members for violating the SYMBOLISM of an external ordinance (1 Cor. 11:28-30). God the Holy Spirit declared what they were observing to be NOT the Lord's Supper, and you think that those who pervert baptism have baptism in God's sight?

Find me one example of an unbaptized church in the NT! You cannot do it!

Find me one example of a church whose primary means of membership is willful and intentional placement of UNREGENERATES into their church? You cannot do it? The very constitution of their congregation repudiates Christ as a metaphorical "body of Christ".

Moreover, I can find you precept that demands baptism BEFORE believers can be called a church (Mt. 28:19-20 with Acts 2:41).

This is not about PERSONAL FELLOWSHIP so don't give me that absolute garbage about dividing brethren and disfellowshipping brethern as we can fellowship with any Christian on a PERSONAL level. However, a group of people must first BE a NT. church before you can recognize them or treat them as such. Paedobaptists are no more a church of Christ than is the local Mason assembly. Indeed, the Masons or more closer to the NT. Church because they demand a profession of faith BY EVERYONE wanting to be a member and Paedbaptists accept as the primary candidates for their membership unregenerate infants who make no profession of faith and by receiving them in baptism and membership repudiate the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Now, Yeshua, try to use your mind for once and read carefully what I have said and think about it before your open mouth again just to pull one foot out and put another one in.

 

[Yeshua1]

Listen, they pervert the gospel in their baptism and the very manner their congregation is constituted and no GOSPEL PERVERTING congregation is a New Testament church.

God killed born again believing church members for violating the SYMBOLISM of an external ordinance (1 Cor. 11:28-30). God the Holy Spirit declared what they were observing to be NOT the Lord's Supper, and you think that those who pervert baptism have baptism in God's sight?

Find me one example of an unbaptized church in the NT! You cannot do it!

Find me one example of a church whose primary means of membership is willful and intentional placement of UNREGENERATES into their church? You cannot do it? The very constitution of their congregation repudiates Christ as a metaphorical "body of Christ".

Moreover, I can find you precept that demands baptism BEFORE believers can be called a church (Mt. 28:19-20 with Acts 2:41).

This is not about PERSONAL FELLOWSHIP so don't give me that absolute garbage about dividing brethren and disfellowshipping brethern as we can fellowship with any Christian on a PERSONAL level. However, a group of people must first BE a NT. church before you can recognize them or treat them as such. Paedobaptists are no more a church of Christ than is the local Mason assembly. Indeed, the Masons or more closer to the NT. Church because they demand a profession of faith BY EVERYONE wanting to be a member and Paedbaptists accept as the primary candidates for their membership unregenerate infants who make no profession of faith and by receiving them in baptism and membership repudiate the gospel of Jesus Christ.

Now, Yeshua, try to use your mind for once and read carefully what I have said and think about it before your open mouth again just to pull one foot out and put another one in.

Those reformed churches preach the same Gospel as your LM Baptist church does, as they hold to the Birthdeathresurrection of Jesus, and saved by grace alone faith alone!