Featured Trump Tweet of the Day

Interesting to see a Baptist assert that we can throw God out of anywhere. Moreover, to see a Baptist defend state-sponsored "prayer" and Bible teaching.

The Bible is not banned from schools and neither is prayer. And I don't know where you get the idea that God has been thrown out of "social places."

Baptists have been advocates of institutional separation of church and state for more than 500 years.

Because God does not make covenants with nations anymore. He only did it with Abraham's descendants. God hears the prayers of those who seek Him.

It certainly could be God's judgement on us as a people who demanded it. I suspect it is. That doesn't mean we should be happy about it or justify his behavior.

That would be an interesting turn of events, but that does not excuse justifying his behavior. Applauding his behavior simply shows the depravity of our nation - and those who claim to be Christian who endorse this behavior.

Luke 17:26 "And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man:

I understand your convictions. I am also against abortion. I am also pro-life (which is a broader thing).

I just have no faith in Trump to follow any agenda or conviction that does not meet his felt needs at the moment. I hope I am proven wrong, but he has not shown any improvement since he became the President-elect.

Moreover, that's beside the point. President-elect Trump has some advocates here who gleefully endorse his methods. The scripture teaches us otherwise. That's my point.

 

That's interesting, he has yet to be president for a single hour. What then are his methods?

HankD

 

Lol, join the Army or something tough guy.

 

That has never been in dispute. Note my use of the term, President-elect Trump.

Attacking people via Twitter against real and perceived slights.

We have yet to see how that venom will be channeled once he gets real power as President.

 

Separation of church and state does not include prayer or bible reading in school. It happened when I was a child. prayer, singing of hymns. It happens no more (at least not with my kids it wasn't allowed).

Social places. Kids can't pray at school ball games, Graduation exercises. Some can't even name the name of Jesus (not sure about the name of the muslim god)

Hmm, why then do we have our president swear on a Bible to defend the Constitution which we have violated by taking the life, liberty and the pursuit of happiness from the unborn before they even see their mother.

Why not be happy when God rescues the innocent.

NO THOSE who support the murder of the innocent are the depraved ones.

Luke 17:26 "And as it was in the days of Noah, so it will be also in the days of the Son of Man:

You have no valid point(s) IMO.

HankD

 

What "perceived slights"?

Then you shouldn't fabricate any real or "perceived" that we have "yet to see".

HankD

 

A woman on FaceBook, a flaming liberal, a professing Presbyterian making a living as a modern dance “missionary” residing in Norway was spreading round a clip from an article that was using scripture to shame Christians that supported Trump. I immediately become suspicious of the manipulation of the interpretations to suit the obvious bias here and decided to take a look at the article to see who was “preaching” this, …this pure hypocrisy being they were obviously sympathetic to Hillary.

Turns out that within the very article which she was spreading that the author admitted to be being an Atheist. So here we had an Atheist preaching to Christians how they should interpret the scripture and shaming Christians! I pointed out the source and made the comment, “How rich, a non-believer using scripture to preach to and shame Christians for not support Hillary over Trump” and in short order she de-friended me, LOL. That said, I give the attempt above in this thread no more credit than I did this Atheist’ attempt to shame Christians and to suit their agenda to put down the man that is supporting Christian values in a much greater way than his opponents.

Let me ask something to those who would dare try to shame Christians with scripture for supporting Trump and his methods. Have you ever bothered to consider what scripture tells us about God using Jonah, the most obnoxious bigot in scripture to spread His message?

How about Rehab, the prostitute? Samson the womanizer? Noah, the drunk? Jacob, the biggest cheat and swindler in the Bible? Solomon, the polygamist? PETER!, the one who denied Christ! 3 times!!

Have you considered that God used David when he was a murderer and adulterer to bring about His will?

I suppose none of you “Bible teachers” teaching a Christian shouldn’t support this movement that is undeniably promoting Christian values in the world, by your same righteous reasoning, would have ever supported David’s leadership either then?

I can hear it now, “The shame! The shame on you for calling yourself a believer and support these sinners and their methods!”

All the while while defending the opposition to these people who brought about God’s values in the world. Wouldn’t have you been the sight back in those days. So righteous you Bible scholar preachers would had been for putting believers in their place for daring to support these sinners!!

Give me break!

 

William Jennings Bryan was a populist, as is Trump. You detractors have to realize that a leopard doesn't change its spots.

These same sheep either voted for the wolf or just sat out and criticized the sheepdog. Now the sheepdog is biting the wolves and the sheep are bleating.

 

( Ephesians 4:29 KJV ) “Let no corrupt communication proceed out of your mouth, but that which is Good to the use of Edifying, that it may Minister Grace unto the hearers.”!!

 

If it is part of a state-sponsored, required attendance school, yes it does.

Prayer and bible reading do not violate separation of church and state unless it is done under the authority/oversight of a representative of the state (teacher/administrator/employee) on official time and/or were attendance is required.

Lots of things happened that should not have happened. Moreover, advocates of prayer and Bible reading apparently think that the experience was universal. I have verified that prayer and Bible reading was NOT practiced in many parts of the United States where there were non-homogeneous religious communities. For instance, both of my parents never experienced such an exercise as students in public school. Their school experience ranged from around 1930-1952.

When my father became a teacher in another part of Texas, he was startled to discover that he was supposed to do a Bible reading and lead prayer in the classroom. He resented being forced to do it since he thought it belittled the Christian faith since many students treated it as purely ceremonial.

Baptists were strong advocates of the Supreme Court's decisions on school prayer and Bible reading of the early 1960s that prohibited schools from entangling themselves in religious exercises, although there were some notable dissenters among some parts of the Baptist movement.

Thank God!

I wish I could say that was my experience, but I had a fifth grade teacher who demanded that we recite the Roman Catholic version of the "Lord's Prayer" every morning. It was a cheap exercise that only trivialized the words of Jesus since the meaning of the words was completely unimportant.

I'm assuming that you are talking about football games and graduation exercises held by public school districts. Those events are official functions of the school.

Back when I was in high school, it was still fashionable to have students pray. Students were not selected on piety or willingness to do so, but on class ranking. The salutatorian led the prayer. A friend of mine had recently come to faith (I got to be part of that process) and he was informed - because of his class ranking - that he was to pray. He was excited about it since he was new in the faith and had been sharing Jesus with friends.

As the graduation approached, school officials asked him for a written copy of his prayer. He gave it consideration and turned it in - he just assumed that they wanted to be sure he didn't "wing it."

It came back with a number of changes, additions and deletions in order to make it more palatable to unbelievers and persons of different religious convictions. He told them he did not approve their changes and would deliver his original or would not pray. They promptly replace him with one of the most notoriously irreligious students (next in class ranking) who "prayed" under compulsion.

Simply put, not one can stop anyone from praying, and allegations that schools do it is patently false. However, they can prohibit you from praying in such a way where everyone is compelled to participate in it due to official penalties or social pressures.

That's nonsense. If that is true, someone has overstepped their authority and needs to be taught a lesson.

That's a custom, not a requirement.

 

Prove each of your suppositions.

HankD

 

I frankly don't have time to teach you about what it means to be a Baptist, Baptist history, or the history of separation of church and state in America. It's all out there if you want to know about it, but I suspect you don't. Things can only be proven to persons willing to consider evidence with an open mind.

If you want to read the story of religious liberty in the United States up to the time of the school prayer decision, the text of the Engel v. Vitale case provides a decent legal/historical overview.

If you want a broader view from the Baptist perspective, beginning in Europe and on through to the establishment of the Bill of Rights in the US, I recommend Bill Estep's Revolution Within the Revolution. You can get it used rather inexpensively and it is well worth the time to get a perspective on the issues.

Of course, you have to be a student to learn something. If you really want proof, you will check out these resources.

 

You are forgetting soul liberty - a Baptist distinction. Which in effect allows me to interject my opinion as to what the Baptist dogma of separation of church and state really means. Again IMO (underline IMO) it DOES NOT disallow giving glory to God by reading scripture, praying or singing hymns in public schools which in effect has now (underline now) been forbidden in said public schools. As the parent of 11 children I know full well this is a fact. If the Jewish or muslim students who are offended they should be allowed to go to a different room and worship as they see fit.

1 Corinthians 10:31 Whether therefore ye eat, or drink, or whatsoever ye do, do all to the glory of God.

HankD

 

I'm not forgetting soul liberty/competency at all. In fact, soul liberty is part of the reason why Baptists embrace separation of church and state. No one should compel another person to partake in religious exercise, and Christians should not use social pressure to feel like they must imitate religious activities with which they do not agree.

You are free to do that on your own time and not drag everyone else into your religious exercises. Other people have soul liberty too, but you seem to forget that.

(1) I'm sorry, but why are we trying to make the public school a place of worship? Why don't we leave that to homes and religious institutions. School is for teaching of other things.
(2) Glad you want to socially ostracize students who do not have the same convictions are you. You are not respecting their soul liberty at all.

And the only want to do that is to take control of the classroom and promote a religious ritual that may be completely meaningless to those who do not believe the way you do?

Sorry, that's not the Baptist way.

 

No I haven't forgotten that fact and I don't drag anyone into my religious exercises. The schools should accommodate for differing religions as they did when I was a boy and went to school in Boston. Catholics, Jews and Protestants were "segregated" in something called release time to do their own thing.

It seems that you are purposely distorting what I have said. Why are you doing that?

Like I said it was no problem in the public schools in Boston in the 40's and 50's. Time was periodically set aside for everyone's right to worship in school (or not to worship) at the appointed times even those who did not want to worship for whatever reason including the children of atheists. My atheist friends (well, their parents) said they read poetry, read authors of their choice, sang non religious songs, had debates, etc. Again IMO this practice fulfills Soul Liberty even for the atheist and agnostics.

So please stop calumniating me as you did when you said I wanted to "drag everyone else into your religious exercises" I said no such thing!

You also said this made you glad "Glad you want to socially ostracize students who do not have the same convictions are you". Again I said no such thing. I didn't then and don't now want to socially ostracize those who hold different convictions than my own. Even though it's not true why does this make you glad?


HankD

 

I tried to tell BB my experiences as a boy. No one was compelled to do anything it was a time allowed for each to participate or not participate in worship of their choice (parents choice) or not at all for any reason at all.
Although if the Catholic students (I was Catholic then and I went to release time) didn't participate the sisters at their home church would ask them why they didn't. However nobody would or could be compelled.

HankD

 

I am not addressing those kinds of situations. I wouldn't want that kind of a situation either.

Like I said when I was a boy a choice was given through the parents or a choice not to participate in "release time".

Catholics (I was among them) were marched two blocks to a local church where the nuns took over.
The others Jewish, Protestant did their thing at the school building with their leadership at the school.
All other non-participants were handled by teachers.

I will admit that this was at the behest of the RCC to make sure that the Catholic children made First Holy Communion and Confirmation (Catholic sacraments) which I did.

About 90% of the children were Catholic. East Boston Catholics at that time were mostly Italian with some Irish families.

They couldn't just single out the Catholic kids without complaints from other "faiths" so everyone was accommodated or did something else.

Every normal day we said the pledge of allegiance, sang America the Beautiful and now that I think about it even the Battle Hymn of the Republic on occasion and then had a short quiet time.

No one was offended that I can remember. It was just done without question.
I don't ever remember anyone not saying the Pledge of Allegiance and singing patriotic songs.
I guess with WWII having just ended it was something no one questioned.

My point is having experienced a "release time" activity I don't believe it violates the concept of the separation of church and state. I suppose some would.

Google:
http://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/Release+Time+Program

This all started when I posted about the trend of secularism in America.

Having taken statistics in college I know some people try to disprove this with "rigged" numbers, however as old as I am I know this by experience.

Other folks live on other planets.

HankD