The big problem is that he does not know wha the Bible teaches, nor what we believe!
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The genuine gospel is neither Arminian nor Calvinist
- Thread starter AndThisGospel
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So because I don't give the answer you like, and although you've never met me and know nothing about me, you can tell me that I'm not a true Calvinist?
Your answer shows your ignorance of Calvinism The truth of the quote (though I prefer the one in the 1689 Baptist Confession 3:3) has nothing to do with assurance. Chapter 18 of the 1689 Confession deals with assurance of faith. Since you are on a Baptist forum, you might care to read it.
I have quoted this text so often here that some folk will be sick to death of it, but here we go again.
John 6:37. 'All that the Father gives Me will come to Me.......' There is your particular redemption. The Father has ordained a vast crowd of people (Revelation 7:9-10) to salvation and has given them to the Son who has redeemed them at measureless cost, and they will come to Him and be saved. There is no possibility that they will not. '.....And the one who comes to Me I will by no means cast out.' The gates of heaven are wide open. No one who comes to the Lord Jesus will ever be turned away. We can bid folk come to Him in absolute confidence that He will receive them. But when they come, it will be because God set His love on them before the foundation of the world and has drawn them to Himself (Jeremiah 3:3; 2 Thessalonians 2:13-14 etc.). This same teaching is also found in John 6:39-40 and Matthew 11:25-30.
AndThisGospel
Member
Because unlike human nature, God loves the unlovable. God brings His blessings on the just and the unjust. While we were still God's enemies He saved us in Christ.
AndThisGospel
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I know what the Bible teaches, but your theology is elusive to me....
AndThisGospel
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"And I, if I be lifted up from the earth, will draw all men unto myself." John 12:32
The cross of Christ draws "all men" to Him, but not all will accept Him. There's no limited atonement here.
"There was the true Light (Christ) which, coming into the world, enlightens every man. He was in the world, and the world was made through Him, and the world did not know Him. He came to His own (i.e., the Jews), and those who were His own did not receive Him." John 1:9-11
Christ has drawn "all men" unto Himself. He has enlightened "every man", but not all will accept Him. It's all about free-will. There's no favoritism and coercion coming from the sinless One....
Well good. Since your CO-heir with Christ and Same authoritive pull, we don't have to wonder about who or what is saved, we can just have you put in a request to God to save everyone.
How would you feel about that? If God decided to redeem everyone?
Some folks even hope some even dare believe God is a perfect hero for all, is it an insult to God to laugh at that notion?
The idea God is such a good thing he can do everyone complete mercy, kindness, goodness and be their hero..... that's a joke to you right? Never in a million years right?
I can teach someone to tie their shoes, but God can't teach everyone or anyone to stop sinning he just isn't that Omni-potent apparently.
God could snap his finger have everyone in a sinless state and be done with it all. I think his style is a little more patient and gentle then that, like he is a father and we are his children.
When judgment day rolls around you guys can definitely put me down for "mistakenly" believing God is perfect father to all, "mistakenly" believing a perfect hero of the entirety of mankind and "mistakenly" believing that nothing is impossible with him.
God could snap his finger have everyone in a sinless state and be done with it all. I think his style is a little more patient and gentle then that, like he is a father and we are his children.
When judgment day rolls around you guys can definitely put me down for "mistakenly" believing God is perfect father to all, "mistakenly" believing a perfect hero of the entirety of mankind and "mistakenly" believing that nothing is impossible with him.
AndThisGospel
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I might be wrong, but it sounds like some here take great pride in believing that God hand-picked them to the exclusion of the lost.
Again, what if God elected "all men" to go to heaven, would some here have problems with that? If so, why?
He saved His elect in and by the death of Christ, not ALL people!
I know, its the same one Paul taught! and John Calvin himself!
God is free o choose whom He desires to be saved, correct? Or are you presuming to knew this better than Him?
He will not, as explaned to us in the Bible, He hs set apart a remnant unto Himself!
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So what does 'In Christ all shall be made alive' mean? It means that all who are in Christ shall be made alive, Jew and Gentile, rich and poor, men and women (Galatians 3:26-29). Who are these people? They are those whom God chose in eternity past (Ephesians 1:4), gave to the Son (John 6:39) who has redeemed them at measureless cost (Romans 5:8) and the Holy Spirit has set His seal upon them (Ephesians 1:13-14).[/QUOTE]
I'm sorry, but I rather think you did, in your post [HASHTAG]#101[/HASHTAG]. Was Hitler not a man?
Much of this is not too far wrong, but I think you are mistaken about the Lord Jesus' relationship to Adam. Adan was our representative head; what he did, we have done; when he fell, we fell. 'For as by one man's disobedience many were made sinners.......' (Romans 5:19). The wages of sin is death, so 'in Adam, all die.' His fallen nature is imputed to us, and also inherited by us (Genesis 5:3), so that we are 'by nature children of wrath' (Ephesians 2:3). Christ is the 'second Man' or 'last Adam. He came to undo the work of Satan (1 John 3:8), which He accomplished by leading the life of perfect obedience that we cannot live and dying the death that we deserved to die. So 'In Christ all shall be made alive.' But 'all' cannot mean every single person for the very good reason that all people are not made alive. 'And you He made alive who were dead in trespasses and sins.....among whom also we all once conducted ourselves.......' (Ephesians 2:1). 'You' here means those to whom he is writing the letter (Ephesians 1:1) with whom we my associate ourselves if we are 'saints.....and faithful in Christ Jesus.' There was a time when we were dead in trespasses and sins. We were not all made alive 2,000 years ago. There was a time when Paul was not 'in Christ.' 'Greet Andronicus and Junia.......Who were also in Christ before me' (Romans 16:7). We are not all placed in Christ and then get thrown out again if we don't believe which is what you seem to believe. We are born outside of Christ and are given new birth by the Gospel, the word of truth (James 1:18; 1 Peter 1:23).
So what does 'In Christ all shall be made alive' mean? It means that all who are in Christ shall be made alive, Jew and Gentile, rich and poor, men and women (Galatians 3:26-29). Who are these people? They are those whom God chose in eternity past (Ephesians 1:4), gave to the Son (John 6:39) who has redeemed them at measureless cost (Romans 5:8) and the Holy Spirit has set His seal upon them (Ephesians 1:13-14).[/QUOTE]
AndThisGospel
Member
That's untrue.
I think you'll find there is. First of all, what is this drawing if people are not drawn? It seems totally ineffectual. Secondly, you ignore the context. The context is the Greeks asking to see Jesus (John 12:20-21). This is something quite new, and it was a sign to our Lord that the time of His crucifixion was at hand (v.23), and He declares that when He is lifted up on the cross He will draw 'all men' -- Gentiles as well as Jews -- to Himself.
Christ is the light of the world. He is to be preached in every nation, but "....This is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world and men loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil" (John 3:19). Left to themselves, men and women will always reject Christ. That is why He says, "No man can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him' (John 6:44). This is not because God prevents people from coming, but because they have wicked, unbelieving hearts. Unless God irresistibly draws people, no one will ever come to Christ, because they are dead in trespasses and sins.
The light of the Gospel has come to all manner of people, but not all of them are 'enlightened.' And who says that there is no coercion from Christ? Is He the Lord or isn't He? "Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in!" (Luke 14:23).
You are wrong. And you should be less inclined to judge people whom you have never met and about whom you know nothing. Perhaps it is you who take great pride in believing that it is your great wisdom in exercising your free-will to 'accept' Jesus that has saved you.
Is that what you believe? Is that what you think the Bible teaches? Why not come out and say so?
AndThisGospel
Member
Here's the context:
Eph 2:5 "...even when we were dead in our transgressions, (God) made us alive together with Christ (by grace you have been saved)...."
Paul is addressing the believers in Ephesus. So the "we" , contextually, are these believers.
What did Paul state? Before our conversion, when we were spiritually dead in our sins, God made us "alive" together with Christ. By "alive" Paul means "spiritually alive" in Christ Jesus.
verse 6 "and raised us up with Him, and seated us with Him in the heavenly places in Christ Jesus..."
When Jesus ascended into heaven, shortly after the resurrection, did He take these future believers with Him? No! Paul isn't speaking about individuals. IF so, no letters needed to be addressed to the Ephesians. Paul is speaking of Christ taking a glorified, corporate humanity to heaven within Himself. Just as Christ as God united Himself to our fallen, Adamic life now Christ is raised with a sinless, immortal corporate life and He takes that glorified life to heaven. Through faith in Christ He can now present us perfect in Himself through faith.
AndThisGospel
Member
No, no glory for me because Christ did it all. He saved me when I was still in the loins of my
ancestors. He saved me before I became an individual. I can offer nothing in return.
All I could do was to accept the gospel through faith. My faith didn't make the gospel so because it had already taken place in the holy history of Christ.
AndThisGospel
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AndThisGospel
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Your argument has often been used by others to try to prove that the in Christ motif applies only to believers.
Clearly, what Paul is implying is that these two men accepted the truth as it is in Christ and were converted before Paul himself. To build a whole theology on this one text while ignoring all the other in Christ texts Paul uses (some 64 times) is very poor exegesis, to say the least
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