That is what Paul taught!
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The genuine gospel is neither Arminian nor Calvinist
- Thread starter AndThisGospel
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Our friend sounds like a young Barth, as he holds Christian Universalism also!I think you'll find there is. First of all, what is this drawing if people are not drawn? It seems totally ineffectual. Secondly, you ignore the context. The context is the Greeks asking to see Jesus (John 12:20-21). This is something quite new, and it was a sign to our Lord that the time of His crucifixion was at hand (v.23), and He declares that when He is lifted up on the cross He will draw 'all men' -- Gentiles as well as Jews -- to Himself.
Christ is the light of the world. He is to be preached in every nation, but "....This is the condemnation, that the light has come into the world and men loved darkness rather than light because their deeds were evil" (John 3:19). Left to themselves, men and women will always reject Christ. That is why He says, "No man can come to Me unless the Father who sent Me draws him' (John 6:44). This is not because God prevents people from coming, but because they have wicked, unbelieving hearts. Unless God irresistibly draws people, no one will ever come to Christ, because they are dead in trespasses and sins.
The light of the Gospel has come to all manner of people, but not all of them are 'enlightened.' And who says that there is no coercion from Christ? Is He the Lord or isn't He? "Go out into the highways and hedges, and compel them to come in!" (Luke 14:23).
If the Bible actualylt taught that, yes we would believe it, as God is free to do what He wants, but the truth is as you outlined it!You are wrong. And you should be less inclined to judge people whom you have never met and about whom you know nothing. Perhaps it is you who take great pride in believing that it is your great wisdom in exercising your free-will to 'accept' Jesus that has saved you.
Is that what you believe? Is that what you think the Bible teaches? Why not come out and say so?
Do you hold to Christian Universalism then? Or to eternal Justification?Yes, God took the initiative and saved you while you were still in loins of fallen Adam. He saved you "in Christ" before you came out of Adam. And when you came into this world He sent His Spirit to reveal to you of your salvation in Christ. But God will not compel you to believe, that is your choice. You can harden your heart against His Spirit and be lost.
AndThisGospel
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Christ has saved "all men" in Himself (that univseralsim), but not all will accept His finished work. Ultimately only those who accept the gospel will be eternally secure.Do you hold to Christian Universalism then?
1 Tim 4:10 To this end we labor and strive, because we have set our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.
IF Jesus death secured reconcliation between God and Man for all sinnrs, how can those not saved still be lost, and at war with God then?Christ has saved "all men" in Himself (that univseralsim), but not all will accept His finished work. Ultimately only those who accept the gospel will be eternally secure.
1 Tim 4:10 To this end we labor and strive, because we have set our hope on the living God, who is the Savior of all men, and especially of those who believe.
AndThisGospel
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IF Jesus death secured reconcliation between God and Man for all sinnrs, how can those not saved still be lost, and at war with God then?
Free-will....They can resist God. Roman 1 tells how. Would you like to go over this now?
None have real free will, so the elect will choose Christ, the lost will chooe to stay in sins, as our natures limit wht we can choose to do!Free-will....They can resist God. Roman 1 tells how. Would you like to go over this now?
What sort of god needs man's permission? That was written to a church, not to individuals. The Lord had said previously, "Those whom I love, I rebuke and chasten.......' The words are written to backslidden Christians, not to unbelievers.Yes, but He needs your permission: Rev 3:20 Behold, I stand at the door and knock. If anyone hears my voice and opens the door, then I will come in to him, and will dine with him, and he with me.
If the human race is not saved, then God has not saved it, QED.God's love is sincere, after all He has saved the human race in His Son, but unlike Satan, who uses force and coercion, God desires "all men" to accept His salvation "in Christ". He sends His Spirit to reveal His love and salvation, but one can reject God's agape in favor of fallen Lucifer's self-love.
I still wonder what Gospel he is preaching here, as not found in my Bible!What sort of god needs man's permission? That was written to a church, not to individuals. The Lord had said previously, "Those whom I love, I rebuke and chasten.......' The words are written to backslidden Christians, not to unbelievers.
So according to you, when God saved me, was I saved? Yes or no?Yes, God took the initiative and saved you while you were still in loins of fallen Adam. He saved you "in Christ" before you came out of Adam. And when you came into this world He sent His Spirit to reveal to you of your salvation in Christ. But God will not compel you to believe, that is your choice. You can harden your heart against His Spirit and be lost.
This is what the word of God says: For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another. But when the kindness and the love of God toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done but according to His mercy He saved us.........' Whom did He save? Paul and Titus. No one else is mentioned. How did He save them? '........Through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour' (Titus 3:3-6). Washing and renewal = water and Spirit (John 3:5). God saves us by giving us new birth. How much say did we get about our first birth? None. How much say do we get about our second birth? None. It is all of God and none of us. Is there any mention of Paul or Titus getting a say in whether they were saved or not? No.
'Salvation belongs to our God who sits upon the throne and to the Lamb.' It does not belong to sinful man, because if it did there would be no one saved (John 6:44 again and Romans 3:10-18).
He seems to hold to eternnal justification and a Barth like view on extent of the atonement!So according to you, when God saved me, was I saved? Yes or no?
This is what the word of God says: For we ourselves were also once foolish, disobedient, deceived, serving various lusts and pleasures, living in malice and envy, hateful and hating one another. But when the kindness and the love of God toward man appeared, not by works of righteousness which we have done but according to His mercy He saved us.........' Whom did He save? Paul and Titus. No one else is mentioned. How did He save them? '........Through the washing of regeneration and renewing of the Holy Spirit, whom He poured out on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour' (Titus 3:3-6). Washing and renewal = water and Spirit (John 3:5). God saves us by giving us new birth. How much say did we get about our first birth? None. How much say do we get about our second birth? None. It is all of God and none of us. Is there any mention of Paul or Titus getting a say in whether they were saved or not? No.
'Salvation belongs to our God who sits upon the throne and to the Lamb.' It does not belong to sinful man, because if it did there would be no one saved (John 6:44 again and Romans 3:10-18).
AndThisGospel
Member
None have real free will, so the elect will choose Christ, the lost will chooe to stay in sins, as our natures limit wht we can choose to do!
But, Yeshua, God's Spirit strives with all men....The elect are simply those who receive the gospel. Don't muddy the water....
AndThisGospel
Member
That was written to a church, not to individuals. The Lord had said previously, "Those whom I love, I rebuke and chasten.......' The words are written to backslidden Christians, not to unbelievers.
Fair enough....You are right...that's the context
AndThisGospel
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If the human race is not saved, then God has not saved it, QED.
The Adamic race answered the demands of God's law by the doing of Christ because our corporate fallen life was in Him via the incarnation.
The Holy Spirit does NOTstrive with all snners, just the ones God chose to save in Christ!But, Yeshua, God's Spirit strives with all men....The elect are simply those who receive the gospel. Don't muddy the water....
AndThisGospel
Member
The Holy Spirit does NOTstrive with all snners, just the ones God chose to save in Christ!
John 16:8 when He comes, will convict the world (the human race) concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; 9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me; 11 and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.
Clearly God's Spirit does strive with all sinners. Please be honest in your replies.
AndThisGospel
Member
John 16:8 when He comes, will convict the world (the human race) concerning sin and righteousness and judgment; 9 concerning sin, because they do not believe in Me; 10 and concerning righteousness, because I go to the Father and you no longer see Me; 11 and concerning judgment, because the ruler of this world has been judged.
Clearly God's Spirit does strive with all sinners. Please be honest in your replies.
John 3:19 This is the judgment, that the Light has come into the world, and men loved the darkness rather than the Light, for their deeds were evil. 20 For everyone who does evil hates the Light, and does not come to the Light for fear that his deeds will be exposed.
Apparently God does strive with all men, but instead of loving the light, they (the unbeliever) love darkness.
Again, your theology is wrong.
AndThisGospel
Member
The Holy Spirit does NOTstrive with all snners, just the ones God chose to save in Christ!
Gen 6:3 And the Lord said, My spirit shall not always strive with man, for that he also is flesh (sinful): yet his days shall be an hundred and twenty years.
120 years later there was a global flood. The point is God's Spirit was striving with sinners, but they did not repent:
Again, your theology is off...it is in error. You need to seriously set aside Calvin and study the Bible for yourself.
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