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Wrightism - New Social order

The Biblicist

Well-Known Member
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My view of the kingdom = God's rule is very simple. God establishes his kingdom in Genesis 1-2 creating a moral agency(Adam and Eve) through which his rule would be manifested over the world. The fall destroyed the inward mechanism to express his outward rule. The everlasting covenant restores the rule of God inwardly (regeneration) and the people who will see the outward rule of God over all creation again are now being saved. Christ came to provide the legal basis for the salvation of those people as the Second Adam and when all the elect are saved and glorified then the outward rule of God will be restored in a new heaven and earth. Thus, the true as opposed to the professing kingdom of God on earth consists now of all those in whom God rules by regenerated Spirit indwelt power. The future rule of God occurs when all of the kings and kingdoms of this world are overthrown and a new heaven and a new earth with a new people is restored at His return.

Wright believes the kings and kingdoms have already been defeated and it is the exodus people's mission to manifest that in a theocratic society.
 

The Biblicist

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The point here, is that Wright repudiates justification by faith WITHOUT WORKS because he views good works as described in Matthew 25 as vital to establishing the Theocracy and inseparable from the real mission of the church which is establishing justice on earth NOW. That is why justification is not about any PRESENT completed saved state or about any FUTURE hope of heaven but about identifying with the kingdom commission NOW. His is a NOW good works mission which ultimately justifies or defines the true covenant people of God.
 

JonC

Moderator
Moderator
I know Greek Tim has read him quite a bit and defends much of what he says.jonc seems to also know more about him....I downloaded a few of his addresses that I might listen to today....
I think you are on to something with this last post....partial descriptions.
I am not against the new exodus idea looking from a postmill framework, but I do.not like some of his conclusions and how he arrives there.
I use someone like him to provoke thought, but then work it out on.my own, or look elsewhere to solve the puzzle.
He has a book on Justification where he explains his view fairly well (not the one presenting his thesis but the one addressing John Piper's concerns). It is not what is presented on this thread (that doesn't mean it is wright ... :Biggrin...either).

What you have to consider is the topic. Up to 1956 there were discoveries being made that revealed more and more of first century Jewish thought. As this was studied, some began to question a few traditional beliefs as assumptions. Jews are often presented as holding righteousness based on the Law in terms of a "legal righteousness". But there are indications that at least some held a belief in a righteousness, perhaps based in the Law, but in terms of a "covenantal righteousness". The "New Perspective" begun in earnest in the early to mid 1960's as an attempt to understand Paul within the context described by these discoveries.

What has been interesting is the descriptions of first century Jewish practice and belief. Even if these documents are of a later date, it is difficult to deny that the traditional picture of a 1st Century Jew is similar in many ways to a 15th Century Catholic but far from the Jewish ideologies described in these documents.

That's why I think that Wright brings up some good points. These are issues that we should examine, but unfortunately we will not because they strike at our own traditions.
 
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Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
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A person like Wright is thought provoking....and yet dangerous.
He will offer or identify a truth, or a missing note....like in the video where he suggests the kingdom has been divorced from the gospel proclamation...video2
But as I listen he often comes to a conclusion that does not follow what the Bible suggests......as if he over thinks it

His big faults are tht he denys the Pauline Justifcation as seen by Calvin/Luter/Reformers, as heseem to tink that we totally messed up teology of paul!
Also, he denies biblica inerrancy, an seems to be hadin towards more of a Cathlic view on Justifiction, as good work determine if meriting salvation!
He wants to be te bridge between Catholics ad us!
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
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JonC,

What you have to consider is the topic. Up to 1956 there were discoveries being made that revealed more and more of first century Jewish thought. As this was studied, some began to question a few traditional beliefs as assumptions. Jews are often presented as holding righteousness based on the Law in terms of a "legal righteousness". But there are indications that at least some held a belief in a righteousness, perhaps based in the Law, but in terms of a "covenantal righteousness". The "New Perspective" begun in earnest in the early to mid 1960's as an attempt to understand Paul within the context described by these discoveries
.

One of my former pastors spent weeks going over this whole issue.
I heard the original Auburn avenue lectures...on npp.

All of this talk of second temple jewish thought does not mean a thing to me.
While it may mean something to a historian....what unsaved jewish men thought of God's law is of no consequence to me whatsoever.
The scripture while addressing the error of those at the time of the Apostles is not dependent on what they understood , or failed to understand...as being devoid of the Spirit...whatever they thought was error based.
It is this part of his teaching I reject out of hand, as it is a case of a smart person getting carried away with his own carnal reasoning.....
I speak only for myself on this. because he is a smart person and can be thought provoking...does not mean I need to follow him down all the roads he goes down...
same with Piper and others today that are supposed to speak for "me"...
They have some good things, but they go off the path, trying to hard to be unique.
 

Iconoclast

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
My view of the kingdom = God's rule is very simple. God establishes his kingdom in Genesis 1-2 creating a moral agency(Adam and Eve) through which his rule would be manifested over the world. The fall destroyed the inward mechanism to express his outward rule. The everlasting covenant restores the rule of God inwardly (regeneration) and the people who will see the outward rule of God over all creation again are now being saved. Christ came to provide the legal basis for the salvation of those people as the Second Adam and when all the elect are saved and glorified then the outward rule of God will be restored in a new heaven and earth. Thus, the true as opposed to the professing kingdom of God on earth consists now of all those in whom God rules by regenerated Spirit indwelt power. The future rule of God occurs when all of the kings and kingdoms of this world are overthrown and a new heaven and a new earth with a new people is restored at His return.

Wright believes the kings and kingdoms have already been defeated and it is the exodus people's mission to manifest that in a theocratic society.


Hello B,
Hope all is well with you. i have been looking at the postmill view for a few years , but do not follow where Wright goes.....
because we see not yet all things put under him;
heb2;
8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

B...
..have you worked on hebrews 2:4-8...quoted from psalm 8, in reference to the Kingdom reign and rule having already been inaugurated?

If you think it has not yet been inaugurated....how do you understand heb 2:4-8 in your view....
 

Iconoclast

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I don't think you understand what he is really all about and what he is really teaching. I have edited the post that you are responding to. Please reread it again.

When you take his view on justification and interpret it by the Scriptures (not by his explanations) he is clearly teaching justification by works and completely denying salvation apart from the sacraments. His sacramental theology is one key to his "new exodus" theory. Identification with his "new creation" or "new covenant people" is by the works described in Matthew 25. The MEANS to do such works comes through his sacramental theology which is inseparable from his doctrine of regeneration and sanctification.

Listen to his video "The Jesus we never knew"! Listen to his video on "what is the gospel" and see if you can find any gospel in it at all in a PERSONAL application. The whole basis for his "new perpective" and "the jesus we never new" and his claim that all of Christianity has got it wrong for the past 1900 years is that the Bible is insufficient without secular history of the first century to interpret the two most significant thing in scripture - who is Jesus and how is one saved. Think about this. The poor uneducated Christians (and elite) from the second century to this century could never really understand who Jesus is and what salvation is as they did not have secular history of the first century to make sense of scripture!!!! Pure gnosticism/elitism.
This is what most everyone I know concluded on his teaching...:Thumbsup


What Does Justification Have to do with the Gospel?
by Sinclair Ferguson

“I must stress again that the doctrine of justification by faith is not what Paul means by ‘the gospel’. It is implied by the gospel; when the gospel is proclaimed, people come to faith and so are regarded by God as members of his people. But ‘the gospel’ is not an account of how people get saved.”
—N.T. Wright, What Saint Paul Really Said, pp. 132–33

There is a striking plausibility about saying that “justification by faith is not what Paul means by ‘the gospel.’” After all, as N.T. Wright elsewhere observes, we are not justified by believing in justification by faith but by believing in Jesus Christ.

How Luther-like this all sounds. Did he not affirm that the gospel is “entirely outside of us”?

Is this perhaps the longed-for antidote to evangelical individualism and a cure for subjectivism? Clearly Bishop Wright and others believe so. Elsewhere, Dr. Wright confesses the great relief he felt in discovering that we are not justified by believing in justification by faith.

But this already suggests that the plausibility of this perspective is scarcely matched by the reality. These words seem to describe an escape from the theological immaturity of an earlier evangelicalism. But having been reared at the same time in that same evangelicalism, I seriously question that such teaching ever existed in any serious form. This should make us reconsider the apparent plausibility of what is being said here. At the end of the day, it may turn out to be a sleight of hand — for several reasons. What follows are three of them.

First, there is a false dichotomy suggested in the notion that the gospel is not justification by faith but the latter is “implied” by the gospel. But this “either-or” way of thinking expresses the logical fallacy tertium non datur (if not A, then necessarily B). Thus, the gospel is Christ OR it is justification by faith.

This is falsely to abstract justification from Christ, the benefit (the implication of what Jesus did) from the Benefactor (the person of Jesus who has accomplished His work). But as Paul notes, Christ Himself is made righteousness for us (1 Cor. 1:30). Justification cannot be abstracted from Christ as if it were a “thing” apart from or added to Him. Christ Himself is our justification. We cannot have justification without Christ! Nor can we have Christ without justification! Insofar as this is true, we cannot say that Christ, not justification by faith, is the gospel.

Second and perhaps more surprisingly, given N.T. Wright’s extensive commentary on Romans, Paul himself provides us with what he calls “my gospel” (Rom. 2:16). But this gospel is saving power (1:16–17) — thus “being saved” is part of the gospel. In addition it includes not only Romans 1–3 but Romans 4–16 as well. More pointedly, it includes Romans 12–16. In technical language it includes not only kerygma (the proclamation of Christ and His work) but also didache (the application of that work in and to the life of the believer and the community).

Earlier, Paul believed that the distortion and falsifying of the gospel taking place in the Galatian church involved the application of redemption. Justification by grace alone, in Christ alone, through faith alone, is as much part of the gospel as Christ becoming a curse for us on the cross (Gal. 3:13).

Finally, unless we are familiar with the context of Wright’s words quoted above, we may not notice a further sleight of hand taking place.

In the statement “when the gospel is proclaimed, people come to faith and so are regarded by God as members of his people,” “justification” itself is being radically redefined. Here it no longer means “counted righteous in God’s sight although a guilty sinner in oneself.” It means “being regarded as members of His people.” Justification no longer belongs to the definition of the gospel as such, to pardon and acceptance, but refers to membership in the covenant community.

But this faces insurmountable problems. It is an eccentric understanding of Paul’s Greek terms. Were “justification” the antithesis of “alienation,” the argument might be more plausible. But “justification” is the antithesis of “condemnation.” Its primary thrust has to do with transgression, guilt, and punishment — relatedness to God’s holiness expressed in legal norms, not primarily relationship to the community.

Membership, therefore, is an implication of justification; it is not what justification means. That is why the gospel confession that “Jesus is Lord” (1 Cor. 12:3) must never be understood apart from the interpretation given it in 1 Corinthians 15:1–3 — that “Christ died for our sins, in accordance with the Scriptures.” This Paul specifically calls the gospel. It deals first and foremost with our sin, pollution, and guilt as the reasons for exclusion from the presence of God. Yes, justification is relational language. But it is no less forensic language for that reason — since it deals with our relationship to the holy Lord and Lawgiver!

It is right to be concerned that the objectivity of the gospel should never be swallowed up by subjectivity, or the church community destroyed by individuality. But the understanding of the gospel and of justification in Luther and Calvin, in Heidelberg and Westminster, provides all the necessary safeguards. The old wine is best. It satisfies both the requirements of biblical teaching and the deepest hunger of the awakened human heart.

http://www.ligonier.org/learn/collections/doctrine-of-justification-and-new-perspectives-paul/
 
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The Biblicist

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
Hello B,
Hope all is well with you. i have been looking at the postmill view for a few years , but do not follow where Wright goes.....
because we see not yet all things put under him;
heb2;
8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

B...
..have you worked on hebrews 2:4-8...quoted from psalm 8, in reference to the Kingdom reign and rule having already been inaugurated?

If you think it has not yet been inaugurated....how do you understand heb 2:4-8 in your view....
I believe he sits at the right hand of the Father and all authority is his to do all that is prophesiesd in order to usher in a visible kingdom on earth.
 

The Biblicist

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
He has a book on Justification where he explains his view fairly well (not the one presenting his thesis but the one addressing John Piper's concerns). It is not what is presented on this thread (that doesn't mean it is wright ... :Biggrin...either).

What you have to consider is the topic. Up to 1956 there were discoveries being made that revealed more and more of first century Jewish thought. As this was studied, some began to question a few traditional beliefs as assumptions. Jews are often presented as holding righteousness based on the Law in terms of a "legal righteousness". But there are indications that at least some held a belief in a righteousness, perhaps based in the Law, but in terms of a "covenantal righteousness". The "New Perspective" begun in earnest in the early to mid 1960's as an attempt to understand Paul within the context described by these discoveries.

What has been interesting is the descriptions of first century Jewish practice and belief. Even if these documents are of a later date, it is difficult to deny that the traditional picture of a 1st Century Jew is similar in many ways to a 15th Century Catholic but far from the Jewish ideologies described in these documents.

That's why I think that Wright brings up some good points. These are issues that we should examine, but unfortunately we will not because they strike at our own traditions.
Jon, I understand your point and his point but that is the point in which his view fails as well. In essence this view declares the Bible is a dead book between the second century and 1950's that is insufficient to reveal the truth about who Jesus really is and what justification really is, hence the "new" perspective that is derived from secular history. However, if we just take the Bible and let the biblical context be the ultimate authority for proper interpretation, his view is condemned as false - miserably false!! Sinclair Ferguson has it right - his view is nothing but "sleight of hand" and his gospel is no gospel at all.
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
He has a book on Justification where he explains his view fairly well (not the one presenting his thesis but the one addressing John Piper's concerns). It is not what is presented on this thread (that doesn't mean it is wright ... :Biggrin...either).

What you have to consider is the topic. Up to 1956 there were discoveries being made that revealed more and more of first century Jewish thought. As this was studied, some began to question a few traditional beliefs as assumptions. Jews are often presented as holding righteousness based on the Law in terms of a "legal righteousness". But there are indications that at least some held a belief in a righteousness, perhaps based in the Law, but in terms of a "covenantal righteousness". The "New Perspective" begun in earnest in the early to mid 1960's as an attempt to understand Paul within the context described by these discoveries.

What has been interesting is the descriptions of first century Jewish practice and belief. Even if these documents are of a later date, it is difficult to deny that the traditional picture of a 1st Century Jew is similar in many ways to a 15th Century Catholic but far from the Jewish ideologies described in these documents.

That's why I think that Wright brings up some good points. These are issues that we should examine, but unfortunately we will not because they strike at our own traditions.
The Judaism of the time of Jesusthoug was NOT the one of th OT covenant, but instead man made rules/rituals, and the problerm of how to deal with the sin issue is found in the way Calvin and others saw it in Romas. Galatins, not as Wright sees it!
It is how a sinner can besaved in view, not how to identify who is saved!
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
Site Supporter
As I have said before, Wright is far more dangerous to the Gospel than the run-of-the-mill Anglican liberals. He writes and speaks intelligently and persuasively, and uses evangelical language, but his doctrine is destructive of the true Gospel.
Agreed, she sounds like heknows the real message of te Cross, and ye he deniesthe heart of it as in Penal Substitution!
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
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It's difficult to tell. Wright begins from a perspective that many (certainly our brother B.) detests (he assumes an Anglican theology, and as much here is addressed to that audience it is too easy to take another brother out of context). I strongly caution you about forming ideas from those videos. I suggest, instead, to have no idea or to choose a topic and read what the man has to say for himself. The videos do not do enough to explain the context of his words (and the presuppositions of his audience, which we would disagree with anyway as we are Baptists).

John Piper, I think, offered the best criticism when he pointed to the value of Wright to Pauline studies,his commitment to the authority of Scripture, his defense of marriage, deity of Christ, the Resurrection, etc. but at the same time expressing disagreement on his view of justification. Piper questions the validity of Wright's use of the Qumran texts, his departure from the sixteenth century formulation of Justification, and the necessity to revisit what has been taught in Reformed churches since the Reformation. He views Wright as unnecessarily creating confusion, presenting an unclear (and perhaps not fully developed) doctrine, and - most importantly - of an ambiguity that renders his own expressions perplexing and out of the reach of his audience.

The point is that too often we demean people who hold different doctrines, draw conclusions that are sometimes not entirely warranted (here, for example, with the Sacrament video...within an Anglican view of the sacraments, Wright would be correct to see it as such a participation in the present). It is not only N.T. Wright. C.S. Lewis is right there with him (and I suggest we read Wright as we would Lewis...very cautiously).

Believe it or not, I even respect the work of Gordon Fee :eek: ...Imagine that.....reading a few books on exegesis written by a Pentecostal and actually learning something :confused:.
Don't tink Dr Fee tough undercuts the Pauline teology on Justification as Wright does!
 

Yeshua1

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I'm not suggesting that you view Wright otherwise. I'm just saying that there are others of his ilk out there. I use C.S. Lewis because this is often the comparison made...but you can use others like John Calvin, Whitefield, Karl Barth, Gordon Fee, and John Knox if you like..."heretics" are a dime a dozen.
None ofthem were heretics, but some did have bad theology!
 

Yeshua1

Well-Known Member
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I know Greek Tim has read him quite a bit and defends much of what he says.jonc seems to also know more about him....I downloaded a few of his addresses that I might listen to today....
I think you are on to something with this last post....partial descriptions.
I am not against the new exodus idea looking from a postmill framework, but I do.not like some of his conclusions and how he arrives there.
I use someone like him to provoke thought, but then work it out on.my own, or look elsewhere to solve the puzzle.
He denies that God was pouring out Hi wrath upon Jesus fo our sins, so denies penal substitution, which Paul affirmed!
And hi viewson the Kingdom re problematic, as hesees infant Baptism as way into it, and denies the need to have a second coming, asits Kingdom now!
 

Yeshua1

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Jon, I understand your point and his point but that is the point in which his view fails as well. In essence this view declares the Bible is a dead book between the second century and 1950's that is insufficient to reveal the truth about who Jesus really is and what justification really is, hence the "new" perspective that is derived from secular history. However, if we just take the Bible and let the biblical context be the ultimate authority for proper interpretation, his view is condemned as false - miserably false!! Sinclair Ferguson has it right - his view is nothing but "sleight of hand" and his gospel is no gospel at all.
Paul staed tha the scriptures are fully sufficient, so wouldnot te inspired txts man much more than what jewish texts at the time stated?
 

rsr

<b> 7,000 posts club</b>
Moderator
I think if Wright had stopped writing about 10 years ago he would be better off. The NPP, except at the hands of Wright, is a waning proposition. It will be around for a while, but as an intellectual exercise it has no gas left.

And Wright's understanding of the NPP is not at all what most proponents want it to be — a rejection of Pauline theology as being opposed to the "true" gospel of Jesus. Wright, unlike many modern theologians, can't throw out Paul's writings as uninspired (which is what most NPP proponents want to do) so he tries to come to grips with it in a different way.

Wright (as B has said) can be hard to decipher because he expounds traditional Reformed theology in bits and pieces and leaves it to the reader to put the pieces together — either into an orthodox or unorthodox whole, depending upon the reader.

This is partly because Wright's mind can't seem to work itself into a systematic theology and partly because he knows he's more clever than 99.9 percent of his audience, which, unfortunately, leads him to a smugness that's unbecoming. (A state of mind, BTW, that Paul himself was prone to, but he was brought down to earth by persecution and his "thorn in the flesh," blessings that Wright, apparently is not subject to.)

As to union of church and state: I do not believe that a close reading of Wright will justify that he believes in theocracy. Like many American Christians, of various political persuasions, he believes that Christians should insert themselves into public life in following their religious beliefs.

As to separation of church and state, Wright is a senior cleric of an established church and an Englishman. He believes in an established church. He thinks that separation of church of state is a mistake of rationalism and Deism. He thinks that Americans established separation because it made religion a secondary consideration, which is exactly the opposite of the case: Religion is too important a matter to be left to the vagaries of whatever government may be in power at the moment. Maybe he should expand his reading to include Helwys and Backus and Leland and even Mullins.

All that said, I find Wright provides flashes of brilliance in illuminating areas that have been darkened by longstanding shibboleths of orthodoxy. It's a pity that he can't see which of his own pet beliefs fall into that category.
 

The Biblicist

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There are flashes of brilliance in his writings.I don't deny we can learn from some of his views. For example, his 2nd exodus view has some truth. He likens Christ to Moses and Satan and the principalities to Pharoah and Egypt, the cross to the passover. I believe the establishment of the new covenant administration is similar to the establishment of the old covenant administration:

1. Moses - Christ
2. Mt. Sinai - Mt.Calvary
3. Penteteuch followed by historical books, wisdom books and prophets - gospels followed by historical book, epistles
4. Establishment of a house of God and publically accredited in immersion of Spirit - establishment of ekklesia and publically accredited in immersion of Spirit.

So, there are some things we can learn from Wright. However, the damage and danger of his views on justification and "Eucharist Theology" poison the well.
 

Earth Wind and Fire

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These are just a sampling of many of his own video's I watched where his intent is to explain what he believes. He is a covenant, postmillennial sacramental theologian. These themes are reoccurring in all his videos. I have not taken him out of context.He is an absolute heretic.

He is teaching a new gnosticism. He argues that the scriptures are insufficient to convey the truth about who Jesus really is and what justification by faith without works really is. He argues that is why 1900 years of Christianity has got it all wrong is because they did not have the secular history of the first century to interpret the scriptures. Hence, just a few elitest intellectuals who have access to first century history can understand these things correctly.

If you would take the time to view his own videos which are designed to explain his views you would see these reoccurring themes. He believes the "new creation" occurrred at the resurrection and Christ is "king" ruling over this "new creation." He defines this "new creation" as the "new covenant people of God" and he defines their mission is to remove the separation between church and state and bring in a new theocracy and the means to do that is through his sacramental theology which in practical terms produces the works described in Matthew 25.

He believes the "new covenant people" (new creation) are the present "exodus" who have been delivered from this present world and have their mission in this wilderness journey to establish a theocracy under king Jesus. In the Exodus of Israel they came into the wilderness and established a theocracy and a tabernacle. He says the tabernacle is a minature of the new creation and the High Priest and preists convey Adam and Eve and a new world in symbolism. Just view his video's and listen to him.
Very fanciful! IE, just another Catholic tarnished Nut.
 

Yeshua1

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I think if Wright had stopped writing about 10 years ago he would be better off. The NPP, except at the hands of Wright, is a waning proposition. It will be around for a while, but as an intellectual exercise it has no gas left.

And Wright's understanding of the NPP is not at all what most proponents want it to be — a rejection of Pauline theology as being opposed to the "true" gospel of Jesus. Wright, unlike many modern theologians, can't throw out Paul's writings as uninspired (which is what most NPP proponents want to do) so he tries to come to grips with it in a different way.

Wright (as B has said) can be hard to decipher because he expounds traditional Reformed theology in bits and pieces and leaves it to the reader to put the pieces together — either into an orthodox or unorthodox whole, depending upon the reader.

This is partly because Wright's mind can't seem to work itself into a systematic theology and partly because he knows he's more clever than 99.9 percent of his audience, which, unfortunately, leads him to a smugness that's unbecoming. (A state of mind, BTW, that Paul himself was prone to, but he was brought down to earth by persecution and his "thorn in the flesh," blessings that Wright, apparently is not subject to.)

As to union of church and state: I do not believe that a close reading of Wright will justify that he believes in theocracy. Like many American Christians, of various political persuasions, he believes that Christians should insert themselves into public life in following their religious beliefs.

As to separation of church and state, Wright is a senior cleric of an established church and an Englishman. He believes in an established church. He thinks that separation of church of state is a mistake of rationalism and Deism. He thinks that Americans established separation because it made religion a secondary consideration, which is exactly the opposite of the case: Religion is too important a matter to be left to the vagaries of whatever government may be in power at the moment. Maybe he should expand his reading to include Helwys and Backus and Leland and even Mullins.

All that said, I find Wright provides flashes of brilliance in illuminating areas that have been darkened by longstanding shibboleths of orthodoxy. It's a pity that he can't see which of his own pet beliefs fall into that category.
He ends up denying the Pauline view on justification, and instead gives us a substitution trying to get RCC and us back together!
 
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