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Featured Wrightism - New Social order

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by The Biblicist, Jan 22, 2017.

  1. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    My view of the kingdom = God's rule is very simple. God establishes his kingdom in Genesis 1-2 creating a moral agency(Adam and Eve) through which his rule would be manifested over the world. The fall destroyed the inward mechanism to express his outward rule. The everlasting covenant restores the rule of God inwardly (regeneration) and the people who will see the outward rule of God over all creation again are now being saved. Christ came to provide the legal basis for the salvation of those people as the Second Adam and when all the elect are saved and glorified then the outward rule of God will be restored in a new heaven and earth. Thus, the true as opposed to the professing kingdom of God on earth consists now of all those in whom God rules by regenerated Spirit indwelt power. The future rule of God occurs when all of the kings and kingdoms of this world are overthrown and a new heaven and a new earth with a new people is restored at His return.

    Wright believes the kings and kingdoms have already been defeated and it is the exodus people's mission to manifest that in a theocratic society.
     
  2. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    The point here, is that Wright repudiates justification by faith WITHOUT WORKS because he views good works as described in Matthew 25 as vital to establishing the Theocracy and inseparable from the real mission of the church which is establishing justice on earth NOW. That is why justification is not about any PRESENT completed saved state or about any FUTURE hope of heaven but about identifying with the kingdom commission NOW. His is a NOW good works mission which ultimately justifies or defines the true covenant people of God.
     
  3. JonC

    JonC Moderator
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    He has a book on Justification where he explains his view fairly well (not the one presenting his thesis but the one addressing John Piper's concerns). It is not what is presented on this thread (that doesn't mean it is wright ... :Biggrin...either).

    What you have to consider is the topic. Up to 1956 there were discoveries being made that revealed more and more of first century Jewish thought. As this was studied, some began to question a few traditional beliefs as assumptions. Jews are often presented as holding righteousness based on the Law in terms of a "legal righteousness". But there are indications that at least some held a belief in a righteousness, perhaps based in the Law, but in terms of a "covenantal righteousness". The "New Perspective" begun in earnest in the early to mid 1960's as an attempt to understand Paul within the context described by these discoveries.

    What has been interesting is the descriptions of first century Jewish practice and belief. Even if these documents are of a later date, it is difficult to deny that the traditional picture of a 1st Century Jew is similar in many ways to a 15th Century Catholic but far from the Jewish ideologies described in these documents.

    That's why I think that Wright brings up some good points. These are issues that we should examine, but unfortunately we will not because they strike at our own traditions.
     
    #23 JonC, Jan 25, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2017
  4. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    His big faults are tht he denys the Pauline Justifcation as seen by Calvin/Luter/Reformers, as heseem to tink that we totally messed up teology of paul!
    Also, he denies biblica inerrancy, an seems to be hadin towards more of a Cathlic view on Justifiction, as good work determine if meriting salvation!
    He wants to be te bridge between Catholics ad us!
     
  5. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    JonC,

    .

    One of my former pastors spent weeks going over this whole issue.
    I heard the original Auburn avenue lectures...on npp.

    All of this talk of second temple jewish thought does not mean a thing to me.
    While it may mean something to a historian....what unsaved jewish men thought of God's law is of no consequence to me whatsoever.
    The scripture while addressing the error of those at the time of the Apostles is not dependent on what they understood , or failed to understand...as being devoid of the Spirit...whatever they thought was error based.
    It is this part of his teaching I reject out of hand, as it is a case of a smart person getting carried away with his own carnal reasoning.....
    I speak only for myself on this. because he is a smart person and can be thought provoking...does not mean I need to follow him down all the roads he goes down...
    same with Piper and others today that are supposed to speak for "me"...
    They have some good things, but they go off the path, trying to hard to be unique.
     
  6. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Hello B,
    Hope all is well with you. i have been looking at the postmill view for a few years , but do not follow where Wright goes.....
    because we see not yet all things put under him;
    heb2;
    8 Thou hast put all things in subjection under his feet. For in that he put all in subjection under him, he left nothing that is not put under him. But now we see not yet all things put under him.

    B...
    ..have you worked on hebrews 2:4-8...quoted from psalm 8, in reference to the Kingdom reign and rule having already been inaugurated?

    If you think it has not yet been inaugurated....how do you understand heb 2:4-8 in your view....
     
  7. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    This is what most everyone I know concluded on his teaching...:Thumbsup


    http://www.ligonier.org/learn/collections/doctrine-of-justification-and-new-perspectives-paul/
     
    #27 Iconoclast, Jan 25, 2017
    Last edited: Jan 25, 2017
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  8. Iconoclast

    Iconoclast Well-Known Member
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    Yeshua1,

    :Redface....not again:Cautious
    fo ta te
     
  9. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    I believe he sits at the right hand of the Father and all authority is his to do all that is prophesiesd in order to usher in a visible kingdom on earth.
     
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  10. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    Jon, I understand your point and his point but that is the point in which his view fails as well. In essence this view declares the Bible is a dead book between the second century and 1950's that is insufficient to reveal the truth about who Jesus really is and what justification really is, hence the "new" perspective that is derived from secular history. However, if we just take the Bible and let the biblical context be the ultimate authority for proper interpretation, his view is condemned as false - miserably false!! Sinclair Ferguson has it right - his view is nothing but "sleight of hand" and his gospel is no gospel at all.
     
  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    The Judaism of the time of Jesusthoug was NOT the one of th OT covenant, but instead man made rules/rituals, and the problerm of how to deal with the sin issue is found in the way Calvin and others saw it in Romas. Galatins, not as Wright sees it!
    It is how a sinner can besaved in view, not how to identify who is saved!
     
  12. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Agreed, she sounds like heknows the real message of te Cross, and ye he deniesthe heart of it as in Penal Substitution!
     
  13. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Don't tink Dr Fee tough undercuts the Pauline teology on Justification as Wright does!
     
  14. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    None ofthem were heretics, but some did have bad theology!
     
  15. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    He denies that God was pouring out Hi wrath upon Jesus fo our sins, so denies penal substitution, which Paul affirmed!
    And hi viewson the Kingdom re problematic, as hesees infant Baptism as way into it, and denies the need to have a second coming, asits Kingdom now!
     
  16. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Paul staed tha the scriptures are fully sufficient, so wouldnot te inspired txts man much more than what jewish texts at the time stated?
     
  17. rsr

    rsr <b> 7,000 posts club</b>
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    I think if Wright had stopped writing about 10 years ago he would be better off. The NPP, except at the hands of Wright, is a waning proposition. It will be around for a while, but as an intellectual exercise it has no gas left.

    And Wright's understanding of the NPP is not at all what most proponents want it to be — a rejection of Pauline theology as being opposed to the "true" gospel of Jesus. Wright, unlike many modern theologians, can't throw out Paul's writings as uninspired (which is what most NPP proponents want to do) so he tries to come to grips with it in a different way.

    Wright (as B has said) can be hard to decipher because he expounds traditional Reformed theology in bits and pieces and leaves it to the reader to put the pieces together — either into an orthodox or unorthodox whole, depending upon the reader.

    This is partly because Wright's mind can't seem to work itself into a systematic theology and partly because he knows he's more clever than 99.9 percent of his audience, which, unfortunately, leads him to a smugness that's unbecoming. (A state of mind, BTW, that Paul himself was prone to, but he was brought down to earth by persecution and his "thorn in the flesh," blessings that Wright, apparently is not subject to.)

    As to union of church and state: I do not believe that a close reading of Wright will justify that he believes in theocracy. Like many American Christians, of various political persuasions, he believes that Christians should insert themselves into public life in following their religious beliefs.

    As to separation of church and state, Wright is a senior cleric of an established church and an Englishman. He believes in an established church. He thinks that separation of church of state is a mistake of rationalism and Deism. He thinks that Americans established separation because it made religion a secondary consideration, which is exactly the opposite of the case: Religion is too important a matter to be left to the vagaries of whatever government may be in power at the moment. Maybe he should expand his reading to include Helwys and Backus and Leland and even Mullins.

    All that said, I find Wright provides flashes of brilliance in illuminating areas that have been darkened by longstanding shibboleths of orthodoxy. It's a pity that he can't see which of his own pet beliefs fall into that category.
     
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  18. The Biblicist

    The Biblicist Well-Known Member
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    There are flashes of brilliance in his writings.I don't deny we can learn from some of his views. For example, his 2nd exodus view has some truth. He likens Christ to Moses and Satan and the principalities to Pharoah and Egypt, the cross to the passover. I believe the establishment of the new covenant administration is similar to the establishment of the old covenant administration:

    1. Moses - Christ
    2. Mt. Sinai - Mt.Calvary
    3. Penteteuch followed by historical books, wisdom books and prophets - gospels followed by historical book, epistles
    4. Establishment of a house of God and publically accredited in immersion of Spirit - establishment of ekklesia and publically accredited in immersion of Spirit.

    So, there are some things we can learn from Wright. However, the damage and danger of his views on justification and "Eucharist Theology" poison the well.
     
  19. Earth Wind and Fire

    Earth Wind and Fire Well-Known Member
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    Very fanciful! IE, just another Catholic tarnished Nut.
     
  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    He ends up denying the Pauline view on justification, and instead gives us a substitution trying to get RCC and us back together!
     
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