John Calvin's views on "soul sleep"

[Earth Wind and Fire]

I can't, Only God can!

I'm taking the part of Calvinist right here or rather it was scripted for me by God.

Can't have synergism.

I am incapable of Good and none of my works good or evil have bearing on helping or hindering you.

Your understanding is solely based on God.

If you were regenerated you would have no problem understanding the Gospel. I don't do the teaching only God does.

God is like the predator with heat seeking vision, all mankind is evil, total rebellion, totally depraved and glowing red, God hates it and wants to destroy it, only those covered in the blood of Jesus he skips over, he doesn't see you he just sees Jesus.


I'm saved and elect, your saved and elect, If we think anything I got is benefit for you it would have to be sin, God does it all.

Or I can believe that I can get saved by the illustrious 7 sacraments & jumping through the hoops of the RCC, kissing the rings of the Popes & Bishops and when I die I will most likely stop off at Purgatory until my sins are burned off me.....cause I cant see Jesus without that.

Oh hello, that was fun.....thanks for playing "Just who's the Heretic!"

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Well, instead of second guessing, why not leave judging to God's Spirit because as far as I know you can't read hearts and minds.

Did you really come in here to learn.....if so did you learn anything or was it all a waste?

Anyway, I came here to debate, not take jabs....

I too can always learn, but I can't if you and other refuse to prove my position wrong. I've been wrong before....How about you?

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Both Calvin's and Luther's view on "the immortality of the soul" contradict the gospel.

How so? We have nothing in us that can merit an entrance into heaven, right? We are 100% sinners saved by grace, not 66% sinners, right? Keep in mind that sin brought in mortality (death). The fact we are dying proves we are sinful. If my soul is immortal then my soul is holy and blameless. Besides, "only God has immortality" (1 Tim 6:16).

Now here's my question:

What is good & holy in the believer, that transcends death, and goes directly to heaven upon the believer's death without a need of the resurrection?

Why of course it is the soul of the person that survives physical death....the body does not. But you do know that there will one day be reckoning & a return of the soul to a renewed spiritualized body.....that would be the day of resurrection. We however will not know that day & time however.

 

[AndThisGospel]

Why of course it is the soul of the person that survives physical death....the body does not.

How does the soul survive? All three components (body, soul and spirit) are interdependent upon each other. If one component dies, everything dies. They are not separate entities....

Besides, the Bible is clear: "The soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ez 18:20

Since "all have sinned" (Rom 3:23) all souls cease at death.

"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten." Ecc 9:5

"The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence (i.e., the grave)." Ps 115:17

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

How does the soul survive? All three components (body, soul and spirit) are interdependent upon each other. If one component dies, everything dies. They are not separate entities....

Besides, the Bible is clear: "The soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ez 18:20

Since "all have sinned" (Rom 3:23) all souls cease at death.

"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten." Ecc 9:5

"The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence (i.e., the grave)." Ps 115:17

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/864087/posts

 

[AndThisGospel]

http://www.freerepublic.com/focus/f-religion/864087/posts

There's one very important issue that the author left out, but before I touch on this issue I have a question for you: Why are you using someone else's work instead of going to the Bible yourself?

The issue is this: If you insist that a man's spirit lives on after the death of his body, and then that spirit immediately returns to God, then in order to be Biblical that spirit must be positively holy & blameless. How so? Because nothing can enter heaven that is sinful. That makes part of you holy & blameless that can forgo both a "change" from mortality to immortality and from sin to righteousness. See 1 Cor 15:50-53

In other words this doctrine on "the immorality of the soul" denies that the whole man, body, soul and spirit is mortal and needs redeeming. Instead this "heresy" insist something is holy & blameless in fallen men that doesn't need Christ.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

There's one very important issue that the author left out, but before I touch on this issue I have a question for you: Why are you using someone else's work instead of going to the Bible yourself?

Why not....do you consider it invalid if I use it?

 

[AndThisGospel]

Why not....do you consider it invalid if I use it?

No, but are you prepared to defend his position since you are using his work?

Please refute my response:

..."the immorality of the soul" denies that the whole man, body, soul and spirit is mortal and needs redeeming. Instead this "heresy" insist something is holy & blameless in fallen men that doesn't need Christ.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

No, but are you prepared to defend his position since you are using his work?

Who told you that my friend? I just offered you an alternative....I did not say I agreed or not.....you are jumping to conclusions. Why do you do that?

Please refute my response:

I don't think so. Your looking for a fight....at least confrontation, and I am not the guy....sorry to disappoint.

 

[AndThisGospel]

I don't think so. Your looking for a fight....at least confrontation, and I am not the guy....sorry to disappoint.

Not a fight, but the truth....Resistance to truth is very prevalent in religious circles. People like to defend their dogma....No one likes to be wrong. That's human nature.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

Not a fight, but the truth....Resistance to truth is very prevalent in religious circles. People like to defend their dogma....No one likes to be wrong. That's human nature.

honestly, what do I care if my soul resides in a slumber or in heaven. eventually it gets to the place of awareness. To me thats a Win Win in either situation.

 

[AndThisGospel]

honestly, what do I care if my soul resides in a slumber or in heaven..

PS 146:2 While I live will I praise the LORD: I will sing praises unto my God while I have any being. 3 Put not your trust in princes, nor in the son of man, in whom there is no help. 4 His breath goeth forth, he returneth to his earth; in that very day his thoughts perish."

The soul is the seat of emotions, personality and thoughts. Soul and mind are interchangeable. When you die your soul/mind (which isn't tangible) perishes. All three components have to function. They are not independent.

Eccl 9:5 For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten. 6 Also their love, and their hatred, and their envy, is now perished; neither have they any more a portion for ever in any thing that is done under the sun."

Your only hope is the Resurrection....Then, at the second coming, "you will be changed" from your sinful state to a holy & blameless state. From mortality to immortality. Then, and only then, will you be fit for heaven.

Telling the kids that grandma went to heaven makes them feel good, but it's a lie. Grandma, although Christian, was a sinner. Nothing in her was good, righteous and holy. But who wants to tell their kids the latter? Hence we fib....

 

[AndThisGospel]

Here' another:

David was a man of God. Did David go to heaven when he died?

Acts 2:29 Men and brethren, let me freely speak unto you of the patriarch David, that he is both dead and buried, and his sepulchre is with us unto this day....34 For David is not ascended into the heavens

 

[utilyan]

Or I can believe that I can get saved by the illustrious 7 sacraments & jumping through the hoops of the RCC, kissing the rings of the Popes & Bishops and when I die I will most likely stop off at Purgatory until my sins are burned off me.....cause I cant see Jesus without that.

Oh hello, that was fun.....thanks for playing "Just who's the Heretic!"

I'm sure you got no problem with the sacraments, its just the traditional reverence involved.

Example baptism any Christian can do it with water saying they are baptized in the name of the father son and holy spirit. But traditionally we make reverence of it, prefer you do baptism it in church rather then toilet.

The sacraments are commands of God. You believe you can be saved without God forgiving you?

Reconciliation is a sacrament, you might call them ordinance, You can ask Jesus and God directly for forgiveness, that's not a problem.

You don't believe the catholic church is the church of Jesus, that's not a problem either.

The problem may be don't believe in the existence of church of Jesus at all.


I don't care where you find it, BUT FIND IT.


Matthew 18
15“If your brother sins, go and show him his fault in private; if he listens to you, you have won your brother. 16“But if he does not listen to you, take one or two more with you, so that BY THE MOUTH OF TWR THREE WITNESSES EVERY FACT MAY BE CONFIRMED. 17“If he refuses to listen to them, tell it to the church; and if he refuses to listen even to the church, let him be to you as a Gentile and a tax collector. 18“Truly I say to you, whatever you bind on earth shall have been bound in heaven; and whatever you loose on earth shall have been loosed in heaven.

This church of Jesus is a source to where faults are settled. This church can bind and loose, It has authority to make the rules. Just how it had the authority to establish a canon of scripture and identify what the bible is.

John 20

22And when He had said this, He breathed on them and said to them, “Receive the Holy Spirit. 23“If you forgive the sins of any, their sins have been forgiven them; if you retain the sins of any, they have been retained.”

This church, I hope its yours, IT can forgive sins and even capable of holding your sin against you. It is a GOD BREATHED church. Scripture too is God breathed, But the one up is the church is one flesh with Jesus Christ.

If you hate the church then you hate Jesus.


John 20
21So Jesus said to them again, “Peace be with you; as the Father has sent Me, I also send you.”

What authority did God give Jesus? nothing? Would it be more accurate if it said I'm sending you in a way nothing like God sent me?



I can tell you Jesus Christ is a Catholic, the first catholic. I can tell you Jesus Christ started the church and is the high priest. You going to a priest one way or another.



Jesus, the Apostles, and all the hearer's of our lord, never practiced sola scriptura.


Purgatory ........ I hear you guys preach purgatory more then we do. Its just a fancy word describes everything that would take you a whole paragraph to explain.

Nothing can enter heaven that sins. The means doesn't matter. A wet willy or chicken soup. I don't know the details of God's program but there is a PURGATORY program.

The proof is BEFORE..... BEEEE FOUR you enter heaven your sinning will stop. when and where and how long that will be the purgatory. Word means you are being cleaned.


Jesus describes:
47“If your eye causes you to stumble, throw it out; it is better for you to enter the kingdom of God with one eye, than, having two eyes, to be cast into hell,

I mean who in the heck does that even apply to? Excuse me Jesus I'm forgiven, I ain't got to pluck nothing.


You don't believe the catholic church is the true, For that I'll give you a C- (C- minus catholic) its still a passing grade.

But if for not believing there is an actual church started by Jesus with the boldness to claim it is one flesh with Jesus, started by Jesus, with Jesus as its head, believes its the pillar and ground of truth, and then your surprised because one church claims to be the truth. You get an "F" for that.

Every denomination better claim they are the true church or they got problems.

 

[Earth Wind and Fire]

However ...I don't believe in denominational church. Further Catholism should be eradicated ...it's just an abomination to Christ and His kingdom.
You get an F for supporting that mess.

 

[utilyan]

However ...I don't believe in denominational church. Further Catholism should be eradicated ...it's just an abomination to Christ and His kingdom.
You get an F for supporting that mess.

You should have seen it while it was just the Jewish Faith. Do you give God an F for supporting that mess too?

Supporting that mess is name of the game. The teachings are perfect, Its people obviously got ways to go.

I can start a new religion today. 100% no murder record......hows yours? give me a break.


You don't believe in denominational church, buddy you don't believe in any church at all.
Where is it? Who do I go to?

Where did your canon of scripture come from?
When was it declared?
Who declared it?
Who has the authority to declare it?


The church can answer those questions for me. Show me where it is.

 

[AndThisGospel]

Guys...we are off topic...

 

[AndThisGospel]

There's one very important issue that the author left out, but before I touch on this issue I have a question for you: Why are you using someone else's work instead of going to the Bible yourself?

The issue is this: If you insist that a man's spirit lives on after the death of his body, and then that spirit immediately returns to God, then in order to be Biblical that spirit must be positively holy & blameless. How so? Because nothing can enter heaven that is sinful. That makes part of you holy & blameless that can forgo both a "change" from mortality to immortality and from sin to righteousness. See 1 Cor 15:50-53

In other words this doctrine on "the immorality of the soul" denies that the whole man, body, soul and spirit is mortal and needs redeeming. Instead this "heresy" insist something is holy & blameless in fallen men that doesn't need Christ.

The above is the subject..BTW

 

[Yeshua1]

How does the soul survive? All three components (body, soul and spirit) are interdependent upon each other. If one component dies, everything dies. They are not separate entities....

Besides, the Bible is clear: "The soul that sinneth, it shall die." Ez 18:20

Since "all have sinned" (Rom 3:23) all souls cease at death.

"For the living know that they shall die: but the dead know not any thing, neither have they any more a reward; for the memory of them is forgotten." Ecc 9:5

"The dead praise not the LORD, neither any that go down into silence (i.e., the grave)." Ps 115:17

Jesus claimed that God is the God of the living, not dead, Souls were in Heaven before His thrown right now, Moses/Elijah showed up to meet Jesus,Paul stedstated death, then right in presence of Jesus Jesus and Thief spiriit in Paradise, , Soul sleep NO scriptual backing!

 

[AndThisGospel]

Jesus claimed that God is the God of the living, not dead, Souls were in Heaven before His thrown right now, Moses/Elijah showed up to meet Jesus,Paul stedstated death, then right in presence of Jesus Jesus and Thief spiriit in Paradise, , Soul sleep NO scriptual backing!

There are a few cases (Elijah) were folks were translated without experiencing death, but they were changed "in the twinkling of an eye". "Flesh and blood" cannot be taken to heaven.

Moses died and then was resurrected. He too was changed.

For the overwhelming majority of believers the resurrection is where they put on immortality and are changed into His image....