Calvin on "total depravity"

[AndThisGospel]

2 Tim 4:7 I have fought the good fight, I have finished the course, I have kept the faith; 8 in the future there is laid up for me the crown of righteousness, which the Lord, the righteous Judge, will award to me on that day; and not only to me, but also to all who have loved His appearing.

 

[AndThisGospel]

Yes to all three.
1. 'These things I have written to you who believe in the name of the Son of God that you may know that you have eternal life.......' (1 John 5:13). 'We know that we have passed from death to life because we love the brethren' (1 John 3:14).

Right, you have been delivered from under law to under grace. As long as you place your faith in Christ you stand saved from the 2nd death, the curse of the law. But these texts do not state that you now have immortality. Why? Immortality is given only to those who are not longer corrupted with sin. Read 1 Cor 15:50-57

2. 'Then He adds, "Their sins and their lawless deeds I will remember no more' (Hebrews 10:17). 'He has not observed iniquity in Jacob, nor has He seen wickedness in Israel' (Numbers 23:21).

This isn't because YOU are sinless, but because God sees your "new creation" in Christ Jesus. You, of yourself, are a sinner. I can prove it. How? Let's see if you can stand before God's law and tell me you are without sin, okay? Still feeling righteous?

3. 'How shall we who died to sin live any longer in it?..........But now, having been set free from sin, and having become slaves of God, you have your fruit to holiness........' (Romans 6:2, 22).
'Therefore if anyone is in Christ, he is a new creation; old things have passed away; behold, all things have become new' (2 Corinthians 5:17).

These text refer to your position in Christ and His assumption, at the incarnation, of your corporate, fallen humanity. In Him you have been set free from "the law of sin and death" see Romans 8:2

You, yourself, have a sinful nature. To insist that you don't have a sinful nature is naive and deceptive.

1 John 1:8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

 

[Martin Marprelate]

Not wisdom, choice....

The tax collector's prayer: "Thank you God that I am not a robot and in your Sovereignty you gave a free-will and the ability to accept or reject your finished work of redemption............."

.....................and made me smarter than all the other people who haven't 'accepted' (ghastly word to use about saving grace!) you."
So the tax-collector was just as boastful as the Pharisee? I don't think so.
'No one can come to Me unless the father who sent Me draws him' (John 6:44).
Salvation is not about us 'accepting Christ as if He were an applicant for a job. Salvation is about God accepting us (eg. Jeremiah 3:14), saying, "I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh, and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes......." (Ezekiel 35:26-27).

 

[AndThisGospel]

.....................and made me smarter than all the other people who haven't 'accepted' ....

Those are you words, which you are very acquainted with being a Calvinist, but they are not mine.

'No one can come to Me unless the father who sent Me draws him'

.

John 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth (refers to the cross), will draw all men to Myself.” 33 But He was saying this to indicate the kind of death by which He was to die.

Sure, the Father, through the Spirit, convicts "all men" of their need of Christ. He does this using the law to convince them of sin....Or He convicts them through their conscience....

Salvation is not about us 'accepting Christ as if He were an applicant for a job. Salvation is about God accepting us (eg. Jeremiah 3:14), saying, "I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh, and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes......." (Ezekiel 35:26-27).

No, this isn't about salvation, if it is then it's about keeping "my statutes and laws". What you have here is the result of faith. When you put your faith in God, He writes upon your hearts the precepts of his law based on agape. This is the fruit of the gospel, not the gospel itself. Try to stop confusing yourself.

 

[AndThisGospel]

John 12:32 "And I, if I am lifted up from the earth (refers to the cross), will draw all men to Myself.” 33 But He was saying this to indicate the kind of death by which He was to die.

Sure, the Father, through the Spirit, convicts "all men" of their need of Christ. He does this using the law to convince them of sin...

Rom 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Rom 7:7 I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”

Gal 3:23 ...before faith came (before we accepted Christ, through faith), we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

How did the law tutor us before we placed our faith in Christ?

God's Spirit used the law to convince us that we are a bunch of sinners, in slave to our love of self.

Now, after revealing to us our need of Christ through the law, we had a choice (yes "choice") to make. Either reject the law's evaluation of our condition and therefore reject Christ or realize that we are a bunch of sinners in need of His redemption.

 

[MennoSota]

You don't have just to preach the law to be a legalistic. If you think there's anything, in your experience, that can supplement Christ's completed work you are technically legalistic.

Show us where I say what you claim.
Solo Gratia
The legalism is in your insistence that you choose salvation, which is a works salvation. You are the legalistic that Paul warns against in Galatians.

 

[MennoSota]

Pharisees = Calvinists

Same prayers too:

Thank God I'm not like that unelected fellah next to me.

Historically you are entirely wrong. People who believe in the Sovereign choice of God apart from our own works have consistently been filled with Grace.
John Newton, who wrote Amazing Grace was a Calvinist. John Bunyan who wrote Pilgrim's Progress was a Calvinist.
Just because a person seeks to walk in obedience and holiness with God, it does not make them legalistic Pharisees.

No, contrary to your false claim, the greatest legalists in the church are those who promote free-will theology, which means you can both choose and reject God within Christian life. I meet Nazarenes, Wesleyans, Church of ..., and more who all are bound up in legalistic checks to keep themselves from going to hell.

So please, for everyone's sake, stop lying.

 

[MennoSota]

Excellent observation!

Terrible observation and an outright lie in regard to Calvinism.

You hold this prideful opinion out of ignorance.

Calvinists are humbled to the core that God would choose any human when our sins are so grievous to a holy God.

Why would God ever choose us rebels to redeem? What would ever be within us that he would pick us out from the filthy rag pile? The answer is...nothing. That, by the way, is Grace. It is something you don't preach.
You preach that you waltz into God's throne and point at God and then declare that you choose Jehovah rather than Buddha, Krishna, Allah, or any of the pantheon of gods on the shelf. You promote a pridefulness stemming from your choice.

No, the legalism is entirely in the free-will camp.

Pharisees = Calvinists

Same prayers too:

Thank God I'm not like that unelected fellah next to me.

 

[MennoSota]

Heb 11:1 Now faith is the assurance of things hoped for, the conviction of things not seen. 2 For by it the men of old gained approval.

verse 6: "And without faith it is impossible to please Him, for he who comes to God must believe that He is and that He is a rewarder of those who seek Him."

Who gives the gift of faith?

Hint: It doesn't come from your own will.

Unless God gives you faith, you cannot please God.

You continually share scripture that destroys your own argument, yet you are blind to what you are reading. May God remove your blinders.

 

[Yeshua1]

Okay, and again, where's Christ? In heaven. He is your High Priest and He represents your new creation, in Himself, before the Father & His law. "In Him you are complete". But that's your new creation which is in Christ and in heaven. You, again, are of yourself a sinner....



Your fallen, corporate humanity was united to Christ at the incarnation. Thus His life of obedience was yours. And His death was your death. And His resurrection was your resurrection. That has already happened - it is not a future event.

I have not yet becem sinlessanbeen glorified, have you?

 

[MennoSota]

.....................and made me smarter than all the other people who haven't 'accepted' (ghastly word to use about saving grace!) you."
So the tax-collector was just as boastful as the Pharisee? I don't think so.
'No one can come to Me unless the father who sent Me draws him' (John 6:44).
Salvation is not about us 'accepting Christ as if He were an applicant for a job. Salvation is about God accepting us (eg. Jeremiah 3:14), saying, "I will give you a new heart and put a new spirit within you; I will take the heart of stone out of your flesh, and give you a heart of flesh. I will put My Spirit within you and cause you to walk in My statutes......." (Ezekiel 35:26-27).

Well stated.

 

[Yeshua1]

Sounds very legalistic....

Peter states that we re to add some things to our slvation, such as deeds/love/fruit, in order to prove our election, was he legalistic?

 

[Yeshua1]

Not wisdom, choice....

The tax collector's prayer: "Thank you God that I am not a robot and in your Sovereignty you gave a free-will and the ability to accept or reject your finished work of redemption"

You keep attacking a calvionism that only you know about, as none of us here hold to that!

 

[MennoSota]

Rom 3:19 Now we know that whatever the law says, it says to those who are under the law, that every mouth may be stopped, and all the world may become guilty before God. 20 Therefore by the deeds of the law no flesh will be justified in His sight, for by the law is the knowledge of sin.

Rom 7:7 I would not have known sin except through the law. For I would not have known covetousness unless the law had said, “You shall not covet.”

Gal 3:23 ...before faith came (before we accepted Christ, through faith), we were kept under guard by the law, kept for the faith which would afterward be revealed. 24 Therefore the law was our tutor to bring us to Christ, that we might be justified by faith. 25 But after faith has come, we are no longer under a tutor.

How did the law tutor us before we placed our faith in Christ?

God's Spirit used the law to convince us that we are a bunch of sinners, in slave to our love of self.

Now, after revealing to us our need of Christ through the law, we had a choice (yes "choice") to make. Either reject the law's evaluation of our condition and therefore reject Christ or realize that we are a bunch of sinners in need of His redemption.

The law made us aware of our corruption. Read the biography of Martin Luther to see the effects of the law in turning Luther into a man who saw no hope for his corrupt nature.

God revealed His glory through the Scriptures to bring life and freedom to Luther. Luther, left to his own devices, would have wallowed in his sin for eternity.

 

[Yeshua1]

Terrible observation and an outright lie in regard to Calvinism.

You hold this prideful opinion out of ignorance.

Calvinists are humbled to the core that God would choose any human when our sins are so grievous to a holy God.

Why would God ever choose us rebels to redeem? What would ever be within us that he would pick us out from the filthy rag pile? The answer is...nothing. That, by the way, is Grace. It is something you don't preach.
You preach that you waltz into God's throne and point at God and then declare that you choose Jehovah rather than Buddha, Krishna, Allah, or any of the pantheon of gods on the shelf. You promote a pridefulness stemming from your choice.

No, the legalism is entirely in the free-will camp.

Those who hold to free will salvation are the one susually with a hard time fully glorfing God, s they were somehow still part of getting saved!

 

[Yeshua1]

Right, you have been delivered from under law to under grace. As long as you place your faith in Christ you stand saved from the 2nd death, the curse of the law. But these texts do not state that you now have immortality. Why? Immortality is given only to those who are not longer corrupted with sin. Read 1 Cor 15:50-57




This isn't because YOU are sinless, but because God sees your "new creation" in Christ Jesus. You, of yourself, are a sinner. I can prove it. How? Let's see if you can stand before God's law and tell me you are without sin, okay? Still feeling righteous?



These text refer to your position in Christ and His assumption, at the incarnation, of your corporate, fallen humanity. In Him you have been set free from "the law of sin and death" see Romans 8:2

You, yourself, have a sinful nature. To insist that you don't have a sinful nature is naive and deceptive.

1 John 1:8 If we claim to be without sin, we deceive ourselves and the truth is not in us. 9 If we confess our sins, he is faithful and just and will forgive us our sins and purify us from all unrighteousness. 10 If we claim we have not sinned, we make him out to be a liar and his word is not in us.

Eternal Life is what we have right now, and eternal life is not lasting forever, has atimelimit?

 

[Yeshua1]

The law made us aware of our corruption. Read the biography of Martin Luther to see the effects of the law in turning Luther into a man who saw no hope for his corrupt nature.

God revealed His glory through the Scriptures to bring life and freedom to Luther. Luther, left to his own devices, would have wallowed in his sin for eternity.

The Law shows us that we are lost in our sins, and cannot save ourselves, the Gospel of the Cross of Christ gives us hope and new life... What we could not do due to our weak and sinful flesh, God ijn Chrit did for us!

 

[utilyan]

First off Pharisees believe they are the CHOSEN ONES!

If you called me a Pharisee I WOULD LAUGH but look at you guys crying offended cause I called THEM Calvinist.

WESTBORO BAPTISTS are Calvinist too. (the most genuine logically followed version of Calvinism also)

The shoe just fits.

luke 3
8“Therefore bear fruits in keeping with repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham for our father,’ for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham.

Even the GOOD SAMARITAN is a DAMNED SAMARITAN.


John 5

39“You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; 40and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life. 41“I do not receive glory from men; 42but I know you, that you do not have the love of God in yourselves.

ONLY the Pharisees understand scripture. Sound familiar? cause after all they are the only elect and chosen. They have the man made traditions "doctrines of grace".

"The love of God in yourself"

When it comes to love your enemies or having any kindness or compassion on a person rather then a megalomaniac idea of a God, they are stuck, after all in the mind of a Pharisee A PERSON is worthless, all people are worthless.

9He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10“For Moses said, ‘HONOR YOUR FATHER AND YOUR MOTHER’; and, ‘HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER, IS TO BE PUT TO DEATH’; 11but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’ 12you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

They cringe at love your enemies, because GOD DOES NOT LOVE HIS ENEMIES.

Jesus says "Forgive them father they know not what they do" Some Calvinist will literally rip this page out the bible.

I'm still waiting for a Calvinist to say YEAH I would go to hell as PAUL would for the sake of some reprobates.

I'm still waiting for a Calvinist to say Yeah what Jesus said forgiving all those on cross was honorable.

I'm still waiting for Calvinist to say When Stephen said LORD don't hold these sins against them we can protect reprobates like that.



It doesn't matter if your big or small, a great sinner or saint, as long as you got the mark like cattle or a beast, then your elect.

 

[MennoSota]

First off Pharisees believe they are the CHOSEN ONES!

If you called me a Pharisee I WOULD LAUGH but look at you guys crying offended cause I called THEM Calvinist.

WESTBORO BAPTISTS are Calvinist too. (the most genuine logically followed version of Calvinism also)

The shoe just fits.

luke 3
8“Therefore bear fruits in keeping with repentance, and do not begin to say to yourselves, ‘We have Abraham for our father,’ for I say to you that from these stones God is able to raise up children to Abraham.

Even the GOOD SAMARITAN is a DAMNED SAMARITAN.


John 5

39“You search the Scriptures because you think that in them you have eternal life; it is these that testify about Me; 40and you are unwilling to come to Me so that you may have life. 41“I do not receive glory from men; 42but I know you, that you do not have the love of God in yourselves.

ONLY the Pharisees understand scripture. Sound familiar? cause after all they are the only elect and chosen. They have the man made traditions "doctrines of grace".

"The love of God in yourself"

When it comes to love your enemies or having any kindness or compassion on a person rather then a megalomaniac idea of a God, they are stuck, after all in the mind of a Pharisee A PERSON is worthless, all people are worthless.

9He was also saying to them, “You are experts at setting aside the commandment of God in order to keep your tradition. 10“For Moses said, ‘HONOR YOUR FATHER AND YOUR MOTHER’; and, ‘HE WHO SPEAKS EVIL OF FATHER OR MOTHER, IS TO BE PUT TO DEATH’; 11but you say, ‘If a man says to his father or his mother, whatever I have that would help you is Corban (that is to say, given to God),’ 12you no longer permit him to do anything for his father or his mother; 13thus invalidating the word of God by your tradition which you have handed down; and you do many things such as that.”

They cringe at love your enemies, because GOD DOES NOT LOVE HIS ENEMIES.

Jesus says "Forgive them father they know not what they do" Some Calvinist will literally rip this page out the bible.

I'm still waiting for a Calvinist to say YEAH I would go to hell as PAUL would for the sake of some reprobates.

I'm still waiting for a Calvinist to say Yeah what Jesus said forgiving all those on cross was honorable.

I'm still waiting for Calvinist to say When Stephen said LORD don't hold these sins against them we can protect reprobates like that.



It doesn't matter if your big or small, a great sinner or saint, as long as you got the mark like cattle or a beast, then your elect.

Was Jesus chosen by the Father to be the Redeemer?

Does that make Jesus a Pharisee?

Do you see the foolishness of your comments?

 

[utilyan]

Matthew 23

13“But woe to you, scribes and Pharisees, hypocrites, because you shut off the kingdom of heaven from people; for you do not enter in yourselves, nor do you allow those who are entering to go in.


Who's that fellah who say nothing you can do to enter the kingdom of heaven? They tell you they can't even do it themselves and they complain if they see any trying to go in?