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Featured Free-will, Lucifer and God

Discussion in 'Calvinism & Arminianism Debate' started by AndThisGospel, Feb 3, 2017.

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  1. AndThisGospel

    AndThisGospel Member

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    Decree and cause are the same....You mean God allowed sin to exist, don't you?
     
    #41 AndThisGospel, Feb 4, 2017
  2. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    True, but we need to wrestle with the purpose for the present recipients before we ever jump into mystical speculation.
     
    #42 MennoSota, Feb 4, 2017
  3. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    God decided that there would be sin in His creation, and Satan chose to bring it in!
     
    #43 Yeshua1, Feb 4, 2017
  4. AndThisGospel

    AndThisGospel Member

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    Of course God has a free-will, but He doesn't sin. The angels that didn't revolt did not sin....So free-will doesn't imply automatic sin.
     
    #44 AndThisGospel, Feb 4, 2017
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  5. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    It is best to look for what e know wuld be right, before proceeding forward!
     
    #45 Yeshua1, Feb 4, 2017
  6. AndThisGospel

    AndThisGospel Member

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    There was no Satan when God created Lucifer. Lucifer was created perfect - there was no sin in him. Why do you blame God for putting "sin in His creation" when the text states the exact opposite?

    You hold a dangerous position. I'm sure Satan loves it....
     
    #46 AndThisGospel, Feb 4, 2017
  7. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    Of course God allows sin to exist. If he didn't we would not be discussing this right now. I love God's patience with sinners.

    Allow and cause are different words.

    Did God cause Satan to torment Job?

    Did God allow Satan's request to torment Job?

    Do we know the mind of God to grasp why he allows some things and doesn't allow other things? Do we know why God chooses some unto salvation and some unto damnation?

    But who are you, O man, to answer back to God? Will what is molded say to its molder, "Why have you made me like this?"
    Romans 9:20
     
    #47 MennoSota, Feb 4, 2017
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  8. AndThisGospel

    AndThisGospel Member

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    God knew that in creating free-will beings (beings that could think & chose for themselves) that iniquity would arise.

    Then what was His purpose in allowing sin to develop?

    To expose sin for what it is - a deceptive intruder that brings misery and ruin to God's creation.

    You see the love of self (iniquity) on paper sound wonderful! To love one's self is the highest form love - so Lucifer claimed. But, when allowed to develop it is apparent that iniquity doesn't bring peace and prosperity, but rather selfishness, self-seeking and ruin.

    Satan's rebellion was to be a lesson to the universe through all coming ages--a perpetual testimony to the nature of the love of self and its terrible results. The working out of Satan's rule, its effects upon both men and angels, would show what must be the fruit of setting aside God's agape love. The allowance of iniquity would testify that with the existence of God's government is bound up the well-being of all the creatures He has made. Thus the history of this terrible experiment of rebellion was to be a perpetual safeguard all of God's creation, to prevent them from being deceived as to the nature of sin.

    God allowed sin for a purpose and that purpose was to fully expose iniquity for what it is - a deceiver. Then, once God shuts down this terrible experiment, "trouble will not arise a second time." Nahum 1:9 Why? Because all of His creation sees the effects of setting aside God's divine agape love. They will be no longer ignorant to the nature of sin.
     
    #48 AndThisGospel, Feb 4, 2017
  9. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    I did not say God put sin into it, Satan did tha freely, but under will of God!
     
    #49 Yeshua1, Feb 4, 2017
  10. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Does ANYTHING happen since creation an before that, apart from the will of God?
     
    #50 Yeshua1, Feb 4, 2017
  11. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    God chose to have sin death evil come into creation is divine purpose to be fulfilled, to hav the Cross of Christ as th means to show His glory and himself as really being God and all wise/powerful etc!

    NONE who go to heaven will take ANY credit fothat, and all in Hell will have no excuse...
     
    #51 Yeshua1, Feb 4, 2017
  12. MennoSota

    MennoSota Well-Known Member
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    God exists outside of time. Does anything happen at a different time for one who exists outside of time? Wrap our heads around that for a moment.
     
    #52 MennoSota, Feb 4, 2017
  13. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Thik CS Lewis had this right, as he thought God existed inther Eternal Now, all things happening right now to Him!
     
    #53 Yeshua1, Feb 4, 2017
  14. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    "Lucifer" means "bringer of light."

    Satan is the Prince of Darkness. Ephesians 6:12.

    Anyone who can't tell the difference is very, very confused.
     
    #54 TCassidy, Feb 4, 2017
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  15. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Lucifer was mistranslation from the Vulgate carried over, wasn't it?
     
    #55 Yeshua1, Feb 4, 2017
  16. AndThisGospel

    AndThisGospel Member

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    Wait..you are stating that it was God's will for sin to exist? That means God desired sin to exist....
     
    #56 AndThisGospel, Feb 4, 2017
  17. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    God' will was tht sin existed in His creation as part of the His prand plan of the Crossof Christ, bute di NOT cause thato happen Himself!
     
    #57 Yeshua1, Feb 4, 2017
  18. AndThisGospel

    AndThisGospel Member

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    Okay, I can agree with the last half of your sentence, but not the first part.

    The cross happened because of sin. To state that it was God's will for sin to exist in His creation is to say that God wanted to see His Son suffer. That would make god a sadist
     
    #58 AndThisGospel, Feb 4, 2017
  19. AndThisGospel

    AndThisGospel Member

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    Why does it matter? Let's say his or its name was George! The point is God created an angel that was perfect and without sin. Take it from there...
     
    #59 AndThisGospel, Feb 4, 2017
  20. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Not if Both the Father and the Son agrred that this was the way tp save lost sinners, and to be to the glory of God!
     
    #60 Yeshua1, Feb 4, 2017
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