Neuroscience says free will does not exist.

[MennoSota]

Sure the bible verse is right where it says you cannot be human unless your totally depraved. Its on the page right before where it says the bible is the final and only rule of authority concerning Christianity.


That's easy Jesus Christ is the perfect example of a human. That is how we are justified. He didn't come down as a hippo or a tutrle did he?
Here is bible verses:
1 Corinthians 11
1Be imitators of me, just as I also am of Christ.
1 Peter 2
21For you have been called for this purpose, since Christ also suffered for you, leaving you an example for you to follow in His steps,
John 14
12“Truly, truly, I say to you, he who believes in Me, the works that I do, he will do also; and greater works than these he will do; because I go to the Father.
Scripture speaks for itself I don't have to butcher or take the BACKWARDS meanings.
Jesus Christ is the EXAMPLE of human being even the one to follow.

None of those verses say you chose God by your own will.

Second, when have I used the term "totally depraved?"

I have quoted scripture. "There is none righteous, not even one."

The Bible says we are justified by faith. It also says that faith is given as a gift from God.

Why do you fight so hard to be in control?

 

[MB]

You added much, because you want to add it so you can feel important. Here's a newsflash...we aren't important. We are miniscule and worthless creatures. We would be crushed, like a sow bug, if God did not choose to redeem us. Never fall for Satan's lie that you and I are important and needed for our own salvation. God does not need us.

Actually when one accuses in a debate. such as your self it means clearly that your argument is weak and you know it. You accuse me of wanting to feel important, When I couldn't care less about self. I'm here to tell men the truth. Shine the light on them if you know what I mean. By telling them they can choose Jesus Christ. That God wants us to come to Him. He invites us in Mathew.

Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Maybe you can explain why He would invite those who were predetermined.

If God does not want or desire us why offer us Salvation. Why let us choose the light at all or darkness as most seem to do? I am sure we are much more than a bug to our Savior. Christ even said we were worth much more than Sparrows. A step or two above bugs.
Since your the one who makes these false claims the burden of proof is on you. Eph. 1 Doesn't say anything about being predetermined and yes there is a difference between predestined in Him and predetermined.
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
The key words in this verse are " in Him " We are chosen in Him, because we need to be in Him in order to be predestined. Of course you'll have some other explanation. Your view is a fatalistic approach. Why it's simply fate to be saved or lost. Your believing something that makes you little more than a puppet.
First of all you do not do everything the Lord instructs you to do. Other wise you'd be perfect and we all know you are not.You're just like the rest of us a sinner. You still sin, a free will action. Yet you believe you only sin because it was predetermined making God responsible for your sins. That's just plain wrong. What's more you haven't proven a word of it. Nor do I believe you can prove such a theory. You sure can't do it with Eph. 1
MB

 

[MennoSota]

Actually when one accuses in a debate. such as your self it means clearly that your argument is weak and you know it. You accuse me of wanting to feel important, When I couldn't care less about self. I'm here to tell men the truth. Shine the light on them if you know what I mean. By telling them they can choose Jesus Christ. That God wants us to come to Him. He invites us in Mathew.

Mat 11:28 Come unto me, all ye that labour and are heavy laden, and I will give you rest.

Maybe you can explain why He would invite those who were predetermined.

If God does not want or desire us why offer us Salvation. Why let us choose the light at all or darkness as most seem to do? I am sure we are much more than a bug to our Savior. Christ even said we were worth much more than Sparrows. A step or two above bugs.
Since your the one who makes these false claims the burden of proof is on you. Eph. 1 Doesn't say anything about being predetermined and yes there is a difference between predestined in Him and predetermined.
Eph 1:4 According as he hath chosen us in him before the foundation of the world, that we should be holy and without blame before him in love:
The key words in this verse are " in Him " We are chosen in Him, because we need to be in Him in order to be predestined. Of course you'll have some other explanation. Your view is a fatalistic approach. Why it's simply fate to be saved or lost. Your believing something that makes you little more than a puppet.
First of all you do not do everything the Lord instructs you to do. Other wise you'd be perfect and we all know you are not.You're just like the rest of us a sinner. You still sin, a free will action. Yet you believe you only sin because it was predetermined making God responsible for your sins. That's just plain wrong. What's more you haven't proven a word of it. Nor do I believe you can prove such a theory. You sure can't do it with Eph. 1
MB

Nice pretzel you've made.

First, Matthew 11:28-30 is not about redemption of sinners. Context is key. Matthew 11:28-30 is a wonderful passage that draws the redeemed to give up control to Yeshua, who is the only one who can give rest.

Second, predestined means that God makes what is predetermined happen. God sovereignly does what he determines to do..despite your desire to be in control.

God saves by his sovereign will so that he might display his amazing grace to sinners who don't deserve it. The angels long to understand this as they have no grace provided. The demons have no such chance. They are eternally damned and they know it.

We never choose the light because before Christ redeems us we are blind. Blind men cannot choose light and blind from birth don't even know what light is. The dead in Christ run from God, toward hell. Only by God's act of grace is anyone stopped from that headlong plunge.

You said..."We are chosen in Him, because we need to be in Him in order to be predestined."

Where does Paul say that anywhere? You are imagining things that are not in the text and then trying to redefine words to fit your prejudice.

Of course I sin. I am a wretch. As long as I am in this body, I will be a wretch. Nothing I ever say or do will be holy. I would be damned if not for God's grace. Sola gratia.

If you can't believe God's word and call it plain wrong then that is between you and God.

 

[MB]

Nice pretzel you've made.

First, Matthew 11:28-30 is not about redemption of sinners. Context is key. Matthew 11:28-30 is a wonderful passage that draws the redeemed to give up control to Yeshua, who is the only one who can give rest.

Context is everything but context does not communicate such. It says absolutely nothing about the redeemed, because the redeemed already have the rest that;s mentioned. Jesus in this verse is clearly offering rest to those who don't have it. Those that are not saved.

Second, predestined means that God makes what is predetermined happen. God sovereignly does what he determines to do..despite your desire to be in control.

You shouldn't have any problem proving this statement from scripture because your scientific theory didn't prove it. If it isn't in scripture it must not be true

God saves by his sovereign will so that he might display his amazing grace to sinners who don't deserve it. The angels long to understand this as they have no grace provided. The demons have no such chance. They are eternally damned and they know it.

Only partially true. Grace comes through faith.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

We never choose the light because before Christ redeems us we are blind. Blind men cannot choose light and blind from birth don't even know what light is. The dead in Christ run from God, toward hell. Only by God's act of grace is anyone stopped from that headlong plunge.

Not true Paul said clearly the opposite.
Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

No where in scripture does it ever say all men are blind and cannot hear that is pure nonsense. Only the Jews were blinded. In fact scripture clearly states that the Gentiles will hear the gospel.

You said..."We are chosen in Him, because we need to be in Him in order to be predestined."

Where does Paul say that anywhere? You are imagining things that are not in the text and then trying to redefine words to fit your prejudice.

Eph 1:4

Of course I sin. I am a wretch. As long as I am in this body, I will be a wretch. Nothing I ever say or do will be holy. I would be damned if not for God's grace. Sola gratia.

If you can't believe God's word and call it plain wrong then that is between you and God.

It's not God's word that's the problem it your lack of understanding it.
MB

 

[MennoSota]

Context is everything but context does not communicate such. It says absolutely nothing about the redeemed, because the redeemed already have the rest that;s mentioned. Jesus in this verse is clearly offering rest to those who don't have it. Those that are not saved.

If you have ever suffered deep sorrow and grief as a Christian, you know how much you need Yeshua to give you rest. If you have ever experienced Psalm 23, you know how much you need the still waters. Context is key.

You shouldn't have any problem proving this statement from scripture because your scientific theory didn't prove it. If it isn't in scripture it must not be true

Ephesians 1 and 2 speak for themselves. If you can't grasp predestined it seems you just can't grasp it.

Only partially true. Grace comes through faith.
Eph 2:8 For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God:

Faith is a gift from God. You miss the emphasis. It is not of yourself so that you cannot boast.

Not true Paul said clearly the opposite.
Act 28:28 Be it known therefore unto you, that the salvation of God is sent unto the Gentiles, and that they will hear it.

Context, once again, is key. Paul also tells us that the gospel is a stumbling block to the Jews and foolishness to the Gentiles. Therefore neither hear the gospel until God opens their ears to hear. How many testimonies there are where the person declares that they were antagonistic to the gospel and then it just all of a sudden made sense. The fact is that we can never know God until He does the work of making us alive in Christ.

If you need to be in control of your own salvation, that is between you and God. I am content to know that God alone redeemed me and gave me life. I do not need to tell myself how smart I was to choose God. He chose me and I am at peace.

 

[MB]

If you have ever suffered deep sorrow and grief as a Christian, you know how much you need Yeshua to give you rest. If you have ever experienced Psalm 23, you know how much you need the still waters. Context is key.

Ephesians 1 and 2 speak for themselves. If you can't grasp predestined it seems you just can't grasp it.

Faith is a gift from God. You miss the emphasis. It is not of yourself so that you cannot boast.

Context, once again, is key. Paul also tells us that the gospel is a stumbling block to the Jews and foolishness to the Gentiles. Therefore neither hear the gospel until God opens their ears to hear. How many testimonies there are where the person declares that they were antagonistic to the gospel and then it just all of a sudden made sense. The fact is that we can never know God until He does the work of making us alive in Christ.

If you need to be in control of your own salvation, that is between you and God. I am content to know that God alone redeemed me and gave me life. I do not need to tell myself how smart I was to choose God. He chose me and I am at peace.

Routine misconception of what I have said makes your post null and void.
No where in scripture can we possibly be alive in Christ with out faith. Faith comes by hearing and we are not in Christ before faith. With out which there is no Grace.
MB

 

[MennoSota]

No where in scripture can we possibly be alive in Christ with out faith. Faith comes by hearing and we are not in Christ before faith. With out which there is no Grace.
MB

And hearing by...the word of God.

Which means that God must speak the word and choose to give us faith. We cannot choose it ourselves.

You are so close to seeing solo gratia.

 

[MB]

And hearing by...the word of God.

Which means that God must speak the word and choose to give us faith. We cannot choose it ourselves.

You are so close to seeing solo gratia.

Nope; Not even close to believing that I was saved before faith. Determinism as you believe it is does not exist. We cannot possibly claim that everything spoken to the Jews can be applied to Gentiles.
Your wrong again. we all hear by preachers who preach the word and the process of Salvation is brought on and initiated by the Holy Spirit. It is not of works. Although you are no different than every other Calvinist. You will still claim that I believe I saved my self. No one can save themselves. With out Christ we are all on our way to hell. Having faith in Christ is not a work of the man but a work of the Holy Spirit, He is the one who convinces the man of Christ, And is what brings the Grace to which by we are saved.
MB

 

[MennoSota]

Nope; Not even close to believing that I was saved before faith. Determinism as you believe it is does not exist. We cannot possibly claim that everything spoken to the Jews can be applied to Gentiles.
Your wrong again. we all hear by preachers who preach the word and the process of Salvation is brought on and initiated by the Holy Spirit. It is not of works. Although you are no different than every other Calvinist. You will still claim that I believe I saved my self. No one can save themselves. With out Christ we are all on our way to hell. Having faith in Christ is not a work of the man but a work of the Holy Spirit, He is the one who convinces the man of Christ, And is what brings the Grace to which by we are saved.
MB

You are so close, yet you insist upon having control.

God uses his children to spread the good news of his Kingdom. This is his chosen method. If you or I do not share that message God will use someone else. In any case, God will save those whom he had chosen to save.
Just as Mordechai told Esther that God would use another way to save the Jews if she failed to obey, so God will save his elect should I fail on my end. God cannot and will not fail to save those whom he chooses to pluck out from the river to hell.

 

[MB]

You are so close, yet you insist upon having control.

God uses his children to spread the good news of his Kingdom. This is his chosen method. If you or I do not share that message God will use someone else. In any case, God will save those whom he had chosen to save.
Just as Mordechai told Esther that God would use another way to save the Jews if she failed to obey, so God will save his elect should I fail on my end. God cannot and will not fail to save those whom he chooses to pluck out from the river to hell.

God doesn't need to force men to be saved. After all this is what you believe He does and it is not scriptural. You have not proven He does save men with out faith. I have proven men are not saved with out faith first. Again there is no Grace with out faith because Grace can only be had through faith.
MB

 

[MennoSota]

God doesn't need to force men to be saved. After all this is what you believe He does and it is not scriptural. You have not proven He does save men with out faith. I have proven men are not saved with out faith first. Again there is no Grace with out faith because Grace can only be had through faith.
MB

He chooses to save them from hell. He does that out of love, even though the person is oblivious to their own destruction.

You twist that onto "force" them. That's an odd twist. It assumes that humans will choose righteousness on their own volition. But, the Bible says there are none righteous, not even one.

You cannot prove that faith comes first when the Bible very clearly tells us that it is by grace...through faith...which is a gift from God...so that you and I cannot boast.

Grace is God giving to you what you don't deserve.

What God does, that you don't deserve, is to pluck you out of the stream that is carrying you to hell and saving you. He does this and then he gives you the faith to believe that you are truly saved.

Do you see the progression?
Do you see why this makes it impossible for you to boast?

Grace first.
Faith second.
Just as described in Ephesians 2:8-9.

 

[utilyan]

He chooses to save them from hell. He does that out of love, even though the person is oblivious to their own destruction.

You twist that onto "force" them. That's an odd twist. It assumes that humans will choose righteousness on their own volition. But, the Bible says there are none righteous, not even one.

You cannot prove that faith comes first when the Bible very clearly tells us that it is by grace...through faith...which is a gift from God...so that you and I cannot boast.

Grace is God giving to you what you don't deserve.

What God does, that you don't deserve, is to pluck you out of the stream that is carrying you to hell and saving you. He does this and then he gives you the faith to believe that you are truly saved.

Do you see the progression?
Do you see why this makes it impossible for you to boast?

Grace first.
Faith second.
Just as described in Ephesians 2:8-9.

No one denies God's grace everyone denies grace on your terms. Who are you to tell God how what are his wants and desires when he clearly speaks them?

He set a command for all not to sin, for all to love him and all to accept Christ. You deny his command. You preach that God doesn't want that at all.

This is what makes debating Calvinism so easy, that it depends on fundamental that God is evil.

That your idea of God has love is a joke. Because Love would be calling the shots rather then God. And your idea of God does not love enemies.

Your idea of God is worst then anyone's idea of Satan. Its so bad no one can name a worst individual then your idea of God.


I thank God Calvinism is just a sliver of a percentage of Christians much like bad disease, deformity.

I bet anyone can name ten people better then the Calvinist idea of God.

Mickey Mouse and Kermit the Frog are Holy Saints compared to the Calvinist God who "ordains" rapes children for his "glory".

I challenged you Just name one person worst then your idea of God.

And if you don't name anyone and just complain about character of people, well that's ok brother, that will be the WINK-WINK, that you hate your idea God.

 

[MennoSota]

No one denies God's grace everyone denies grace on your terms. Who are you to tell God how what are his wants and desires when he clearly speaks them?

He set a command for all not to sin, for all to love him and all to accept Christ. You deny his command. You preach that God doesn't want that at all.

This is what makes debating Calvinism so easy, that it depends on fundamental that God is evil.

That your idea of God has love is a joke. Because Love would be calling the shots rather then God. And your idea of God does not love enemies.

Your idea of God is worst then anyone's idea of Satan. Its so bad no one can name a worst individual then your idea of God.


I thank God Calvinism is just a sliver of a percentage of Christians much like bad disease, deformity.

I bet anyone can name ten people better then the Calvinist idea of God.

Mickey Mouse and Kermit the Frog are Holy Saints compared to the Calvinist God who "ordains" rapes children for his "glory".

I challenged you Just name one person worst then your idea of God.

And if you don't name anyone and just complain about character of people, well that's ok brother, that will be the WINK-WINK, that you hate your idea God.

Not one verse or passage to backup your claims. But, thanks for sharing your prejudice with us. If you can't provide biblical evidence at least you can condemn those who do provide biblical evidence for their views.

 

[utilyan]

Not one verse or passage to backup your claims. But, thanks for sharing your prejudice with us. If you can't provide biblical evidence at least you can condemn those who do provide biblical evidence for their views.

WINK-WINK I know your idea of God is HORRENDOUS.


There is hundreds of verses.....HUNDREDS

1 Corinthians 13

1If I speak with the tongues of men and of angels, but do not have love, I have become a noisy gong or a clanging cymbal.


Garbage god sounds like Garbage all the time, noisy Gong, the fake deal. Hitler for God doesn't work

 

[MennoSota]

WINK-WINK I know your idea of God is HORRENDOUS.

Of course you do...wink-wink...your father the devil told you so...wink-wink. [emoji41] [emoji33] [emoji48]

 

[utilyan]

Of course you do...wink-wink...your father the devil told you so...wink-wink. [emoji41] [emoji33] [emoji48]

Devil: I'm just doing what Calvin told me to do.


Even your Idea of the devil 1000 times more loving then your idea of God. Tell us how the devil is worst.

 

[MennoSota]

Devil: I'm just doing what Calvin told me to do.


Even your Idea of the devil 1000 times more loving then your idea of God. Tell us how the devil is worst.

If you read the Bible as it is written rather than with your presuppositions you would see a God of immense love who chooses to clean some filthy rags when he is justified in burning them all.

Why do you have such a high and prideful attitude about yourself?

 

[utilyan]

If you read the Bible as it is written rather than with your presuppositions you would see a God of immense love who chooses to clean some filthy rags when he is justified in burning them all.

Why do you have such a high and prideful attitude about yourself?

Only you and the devil believe all deserve hell based on your personal accusation and judgment. God on the contrary says he loved all he gave his son. The only reason sin is a sin is because it runs counter to God's desire.

The act of pride is you think your GOD to make the call that all deserve hell. You don't even have the grounds to judge a single soul as wicked, even yourself this is God's call alone.

In fact I can pull scripture:

2 Corinthians 5
19namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

Not counting trespasses is a notch BETTER then not guilty. That means the charges a dropped.

So who made you God to judge anyone about anything?

My advice:
Matthew 7
1“Do not judge so that you will not be judged. 2“For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you. 3“Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? 4“Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ and behold, the log is in your own eye? 5“You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.

Anyone who says anyone deserves hell SINS on the spot by making judgment.

 

[MennoSota]

Only you and the devil believe all deserve hell based on your personal accusation and judgment.

For the wages of sin is death.

All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

God on the contrary says he loved all he gave his son.

God does love all his creation. This does not mean all his creation is saved from their sin.

There is none righteous no not one.

The only reason sin is a sin is because it runs counter to God's desire.

Sin is sin because God's law says so. All humans sin and are in need of reconciliation.

The act of pride is you think your GOD to make the call that all deserve hell. You don't even have the grounds to judge a single soul as wicked, even yourself this is God's call alone.

All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

There is none who is righteous no not one.

The wages of sin is death.

Interesting that God makes the call.

In fact I can pull scripture:

2 Corinthians 5
19namely, that God was in Christ reconciling the world to Himself, not counting their trespasses against them, and He has committed to us the word of reconciliation.

Excellent passage. The use of "world" is not universal. If it was, then all humanity is saved and there is no need for anyone to be reconciled.
The use of world is the fact that reconciliation was not just for the Jews. God was saving people from all nations and tribes.

Not counting trespasses is a notch BETTER then not guilty. That means the charges a dropped.

You are teaching universalism. The problem for you is that not all people reconcile with God. Thus either your interpretation is wrong or your God lied or is to weak to keep his promise.

God is not a liar. God is not weak. Therefore your interpretation must be wrong.

So who made you God to judge anyone about anything?

No one. I am a wretch who deserves hell because I am not righteous. Grace and grace alone saves me from a certain doom.

God says that our judgment is death. The wages of sin is death.

God judges, not me.

My advice:
Matthew 7
1“Do not judge so that you will not be judged. 2“For in the way you judge, you will be judged; and by your standard of measure, it will be measured to you. 3“Why do you look at the speck that is in your brother’s eye, but do not notice the log that is in your own eye? 4“Or how can you say to your brother, ‘Let me take the speck out of your eye,’ and behold, the log is in your own eye? 5“You hypocrite, first take the log out of your own eye, and then you will see clearly to take the speck out of your brother’s eye.

Wonderful advise. We ought all seek to live according to Yeshua's teaching. The passage, however, does not say that humans don't sin and don't fall short of God's glory.

Anyone who says anyone deserves hell SINS on the spot by making judgment.

Do you realize that Jesus spoke about hell more than anyone? He said that the road to hell was wide and the path to heaven was narrow and few find it. That statement is the reason for John Bunyan's great allegory, "Pilgrim's Progress."

 

[utilyan]

For the wages of sin is death.

All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

God does love all his creation. This does not mean all his creation is saved from their sin.

There is none righteous no not one.


Sin is sin because God's law says so. All humans sin and are in need of reconciliation.


All have sinned and fall short of the glory of God.

There is none who is righteous no not one.

The wages of sin is death.

Interesting that God makes the call.


Excellent passage. The use of "world" is not universal. If it was, then all humanity is saved and there is no need for anyone to be reconciled.
The use of world is the fact that reconciliation was not just for the Jews. God was saving people from all nations and tribes.


You are teaching universalism. The problem for you is that not all people reconcile with God. Thus either your interpretation is wrong or your God lied or is to weak to keep his promise.

God is not a liar. God is not weak. Therefore your interpretation must be wrong.


No one. I am a wretch who deserves hell because I am not righteous. Grace and grace alone saves me from a certain doom.

God says that our judgment is death. The wages of sin is death.

God judges, not me.


Wonderful advise. We ought all seek to live according to Yeshua's teaching. The passage, however, does not say that humans don't sin and don't fall short of God's glory.

Do you realize that Jesus spoke about hell more than anyone? He said that the road to hell was wide and the path to heaven was narrow and few find it. That statement is the reason for John Bunyan's great allegory, "Pilgrim's Progress."

Hey if no one sinned all went fine and dandy your saying it would not be universalism? Of course it would be and it was prior to the fall.


Deserve hell is satanic teaching, First thing Satan wanted is humans to deserve hell.

Wages of sin is death, sure. Does that mean you or anyone "deserves" hell? No.
Short of glory, sure. God says all Deserves hell? NO.
All sins, sure, God says all deserve hell? NO.

You want to put words in God's mouth with your sloppy kindergarten reading skills.

Your theology is a INSULT to God. You say he is too stupid to make all with free will and too evil to help everyone.

You make God's kindness and love some sort of FREAK exception.

I've heard your backward theologians say it themselves that they are SHOCKED and SUPRISED that God would even save a portion of humanity because they all "DESERVE" hell.

Congrats to Calvinist for being SHOCKED and SURPRISED God is half a jerk rather then a complete one.


"filthy rags" "not one righteous" All Paul quoting OLD testament apostate Jews doesn't mean its new testament universal doctrine. Only a theological moron can conclude this.

If you actually had reading comprehension he is quoting psalms, old testament scripture. OLD LAW that doesn't even apply to gentiles


I never said there is not a hell.......But GO FIGURE MR. "makes up what people wrote" would confuse WHAT I am saying just like he does with EVERTHING ELSE in scripture.

GO TO SCHOOL. LEARN TO READ.

Same problem. Show where GOD SAYS, GOD SAYS, GOD SAYS.

Show where he says all deserve hell.


Bible never says that, that is a satanic teaching.