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Featured A study of the "Revelation" - date & significance, then & now

Discussion in 'Baptist Theology & Bible Study' started by Covenanter, Feb 27, 2017.

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When did John see the Revelation?

  1. Before AD 70

    6 vote(s)
    42.9%

  2. After AD 70

    8 vote(s)
    57.1%
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  1. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    While I appreciate your post, there are inaccuracies.

    1. The "Left Behind" series does not tout dispensationalism but premillenialism. (Yes, I read them.) One cannot be a dispensationalist without being premil, but one can be premil without being dispensational. That position is called historic premil, and my father and grandfather both were in that camp.

    2. I just taught a 2 week block course on "Dispensational Theology" (40 hours of class time), and at no time did I, the textbook (Ryrie), or any of my students call dispensationalism "the heart of the Gospel." In fact, I utterly oppose such a characterization, and would define any dispensationalist who made that statement as being wrong in the extreme, and possibly even heretical. The Gospel is that Christ died for our sins (proven by His burial) and rose again (proven by the witnesses)." Period, end of story.
     
    #21 John of Japan, Feb 28, 2017
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  2. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    You could hurt my feelings, you know. :D
     
    #22 kyredneck, Feb 28, 2017
  3. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Absolute baloney. No proof in the slightest. Give me an actual statement in favor of Zionism by an actual dispensational theologian.

    In fact, I am not sure you know what historical Zionism is: "a worldwide Jewish movement that resulted in the establishment and development of the state of Israel" (from http://www.dictionary.com/browse/zionist). You are using the term in the way a modern Palestinian would, not in the dictionary meaning.
     
    #23 John of Japan, Feb 28, 2017
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  4. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Who, little old me? :p
     
    #24 John of Japan, Feb 28, 2017
  5. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    Tell you what, go to the Wikipedia article, and actually read it. It says of a noted Dispensational theologian, "Some dispensationalists, like Arno Gabelein, whilst philo-semitic, opposed Zionism as a movement born in self-confidence and unbelief."
     
    #25 John of Japan, Feb 28, 2017
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  6. kyredneck

    kyredneck Well-Known Member
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    It doesn't matter that your picks don't tout the anticipated 'Greater Israel', there's many more that do!

    I did a poll on the BB some years back on Gen 12:3:

    God’s blessing upon a people and nation will depend on how they treat Israel today

    Yes - 26 votes – 57.8%
    No – 19 votes – 42.2%
     
    #26 kyredneck, Feb 28, 2017
  7. John of Japan

    John of Japan Well-Known Member
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    What you are missing is that yes, we believe that Israel will be gathered back into their historical land, but the current return to the land ala Zionism is in unbelief, and therefore does not fulfill the prophecies.

    Also, please explain how a theology can provide political support. I somehow missed that in my recent 35+ hours of lecturing. Now if the mayor had sat in on my lectures.... :Cool Perhaps it would be helpful if you would list the dispensational theologians who influenced the politicians. Who were they? (I've never heard of any.)
     
    #27 John of Japan, Feb 28, 2017
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  8. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Unless, or course, you actually know something about Church History.

    Except Nero was never known as "Domitius Nero." His given name was Lucius Domitius Ahenobarbus. His name was changed to Nero Claudius Caesar Augustus Germanicus when he was 13 and adopted by his great uncle Claudius. He was most often called Nero Claudius Drusus Germanicus. The only reason his original name included "Domitius" was that was the name of his biological father who died (Gnaeus Domitius Ahenobarbus, died in about 40 AD).

    As "Domitius" was part of his father's family name, after Claudius adopted him and made him son and heir to the Roman throne, he was never again called by his biological father's name.

    As for Irenaeus, read my earlier post. It was Irenaeus who wrote (Adversus Haereses) that Polycarp was a disciple of John, and attested to the fact that John ordained Polycarp around 100 AD.

    There is no way this was happening in 68-70 AD as that was when Polycarp was born.

    It is only when you try to force the Preterist Hermeneutic onto the text of the bible that you arrive at such absurdities as it taking place before 70 AD.

    Irenaeus
    Irenaeus (A.D. 180), a student of Polycarp (who was a disciple of the apostle John), wrote that the apocalyptic vision “was seen not very long ago, almost in our own generation, at the close of the reign of Domitian” (Against Heresies 30). The testimony of Irenaeus, not far removed from the apostolic age, is first rate. He places the book near the end of Domitian’s reign, and that ruler died in A.D. 96. Irenaeus seems to be unaware of any other view for the date of the book of Revelation.

    Clement of Alexandria
    Clement of Alexandria (A.D. 155-215) says that John returned from the isle of Patmos “after the tyrant was dead” (Who Is the Rich Man? 42), and Eusebius, known as the “Father of Church History,” identifies the “tyrant” as Domitian (Ecclesiastical History III.23).

    Even Moses Stuart, America’s most prominent preterist, admitted that the “tyrant here meant is probably Domitian.” Within this narrative, Clement further speaks of John as an “old man.” If Revelation was written prior to A.D. 70, it would scarcely seem appropriate to refer to John as an old man, since he would only have been in his fifties at this time.

    Victorinus
    Victorinus (late third century), author of the earliest commentary on the book of Revelation, wrote:

    When John said these things, he was in the island of Patmos, condemned to the mines by Caesar Domitian. There he saw the Apocalypse; and when at length grown old, he thought that he should receive his release by suffering; but Domitian being killed, he was liberated (Commentary on Revelation 10:11).

    Jerome
    Jerome (A.D. 340-420) said,

    In the fourteenth then after Nero, Domitian having raised up a second persecution, he [John] was banished to the island of Patmos, and wrote the Apocalypse (Lives of Illustrious Men 9).

    To all of this may be added the comment of Eusebius, who contends that the historical tradition of his time (A.D. 324) placed the writing of the Apocalypse at the close of Domitian’s reign (III.18). McClintock and Strong, in contending for the later date, declare that “there is no mention in any writer of the first three centuries of any other time or place” (1969, 1064). Upon the basis of external evidence, therefore, there is little contest between the earlier and later dates.
     
    #28 TCassidy, Feb 28, 2017
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  9. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    I think we should seek to discuss what Revelation actually teaches, rather than continue fruitless arguments.
     
    #29 Covenanter, Feb 28, 2017
  10. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    Continuing with Revelation.
    John writes to the angels of the 7 churches. That must mean pastors/elders. The letters are specific for those churches but applicable to everyone reading them. My church & yours. Me & you. And the churches around us - the ones we don't go to.

    Rev. 4 & 5 show the heavenly situation & the Kingship & God & his Son.
    Rev. 5:5 And one of the elders saith unto me, Weep not: behold, the Lion of the tribe of Juda, the Root of David, hath prevailed to open the book, and to loose the seven seals thereof.
    ......
    9 And they sung a new song, saying, Thou art worthy to take the book, and to open the seals thereof: for thou wast slain, and hast redeemed us to God by thy blood out of every tribe/kindred, and tongue, and people, and nation; 10 and hast made us unto our God kings and priests: and we shall reign on the earth.    ​
    Jesus has the victory, & he proceeds to show John the sealed scroll - a picture book of God's plans about to be realised.
    Notice that the Lion/Lamb prevailed - Nike. In 6:2, the white horse rider went forth conquering, and to conquer.... νικῶν καὶ ἵνα νικήσῃ. nike/nike.
    What trainers do champions wear?
    The victorious Jesus continues his triumph by the defeat of his enemies.
    The scale of the other 3 horsemen's activities is consistent with judgement on the land of Israel, rather than the whole earth.
    Compare:
    Rev. 6:8 And I looked, and behold a pale horse: and his name that sat on him was Death, and Hell followed with him. And power was given unto them over the fourth part of the earth, to kill with sword, and with hunger, and with death, and with the beasts of the earth.​
    with:
    Eze. 14:21 For thus saith the Lord God; How much more when I send my four sore judgments upon Jerusalem, the sword, and the famine, and the noisome beast, and the pestilence, to cut off from it man and beast?​
    Ezekiel's warning vision does not stop with judgment.
    22 Yet, behold, therein shall be left a remnant that shall be brought forth, both sons and daughters: behold, they shall come forth unto you, and ye shall see their way and their doings: and ye shall be comforted concerning the evil that I have brought upon Jerusalem, even concerning all that I have brought upon it. 23 And they shall comfort you, when ye see their ways and their doings: and ye shall know that I have not done without cause all that I have done in it, saith the Lord God.​
    which points to the 144,000 remnant who will be delivered.

    A (partial) Preterist understanding is indicated. We are on the winning side. NIKE!!!

    But we haven't finished with Rev. 6 yet.
     
    #30 Covenanter, Feb 28, 2017
  11. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Is your definition of a "fruitless" argument one that mitigates against your chosen hermeneutic?
     
    #31 TCassidy, Feb 28, 2017
  12. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    Not at all. I am fully aware of alternative interpretations of Scripture, but when arguments become personal or are repeated against protestations, then heat is generated rather than light.

    I pointed out early in the thread that historical arguments for dating were inconclusive. I asked for constructive interpretations of Revelation, rather than arguments about theological positions.
     
    #32 Covenanter, Feb 28, 2017
  13. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Pretierism MUST have the earlier dating, but most historical accounts would make John writting in the 90's His letters/revelation...
     
    #33 Yeshua1, Feb 28, 2017
  14. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    John saw what applied to his time, for all times, and for the end times, which we have yet to face!
     
    #34 Yeshua1, Feb 28, 2017
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  15. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Think that revelation is both addressing cureent things and future to us today things!
     
    #35 Yeshua1, Feb 28, 2017
  16. Covenanter

    Covenanter Well-Known Member
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    Jesus spent much of the last week of his ministry warning the Jewish leaders of the consequences of their rejection of their Messiah, as well as teaching his disciples & preparing them for his death & resurrection. All seemed very slow to learn.

    We are in a war - a personal war against sin; a war by Satan & those who reject Christ against us, Jesus' servants; & a war as ambassadors for Christ in proclaiming the Gospel to lost sinners.

    Revelation has much to teach us about living in a hostile world.
     
    #36 Covenanter, Feb 28, 2017
  17. TCassidy

    TCassidy Late-Administator Emeritus
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    Except they are not. They are very conclusive. John was exiled to Patmos around 94-95 AD and released in 96AD. And Revelation was written while he was a prisoner on Patmos. And that fact destroys the entire Preterist argument. :)
     
    #37 TCassidy, Feb 28, 2017
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  18. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    Think the left behind was Dispy though, as big deal was missing the Rapture!
     
    #38 Yeshua1, Feb 28, 2017
  19. Yeshua1

    Yeshua1 Well-Known Member
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    that is pretty much the Gospel truth!
     
    #39 Yeshua1, Feb 28, 2017
  20. Baptist Believer

    Baptist Believer Well-Known Member
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    Simply that when theology is well taught, it influences the political decisions of the people in a representative democracy. They vote for politicians who support Zionism because they see it as a way to promote what God wants to do in the world. Those politicians help construct policy and put the weight and influence of the United States and Britain on the side of Zionism.

    In our country it is quite common for a politician to declare unwavering support for secular Israel in everything she does - without regard to justice for anyone else - in order to attract votes. If a leader does something to reign in secular Israel or reprimand the secular nation for human rights abuses, they are portrayed as an enemy of God and "hater" of Israel.
     
    #40 Baptist Believer, Feb 28, 2017
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