You do know that view would be regarded by the Historical Church as being Major Heresy. correct?
-
Welcome to Baptist Board, a friendly forum to discuss the Baptist Faith in a friendly surrounding.
Your voice is missing! You will need to register to get access to all the features that our community has to offer.
We hope to see you as a part of our community soon and God Bless!
A study of the "Revelation" - date & significance, then & now
- Thread starter Covenanter
- Start date
- Status
You do know that the term does not refer to what was stated will be done right now, but that when it all starts to happen, will be done quickly?
That is a good breakdown, as there are more than just those holding as Scofield did in Dispy theology
Now that's an interesting taxonomy. Ryrie only gives 4 types: ultra (or hyper, starting with Bullinger), classic (Scofield), revised (Ryrie et al) and progressive.
This is actually a terrible indictment of the preterist movement. One can be a preterist and yet a hideous apostate such as Tom has mentioned here. Why? Any system that allows a hermeneutic of "spiritualizing" makes man the authority rather than the Word of God.
On the other hand, literal interpretation produces right doctrine. Even including the ultras, all dispensationalists have a Biblical Christology: Christ's pre-existence, deity, incarnation, perfect life, blood atonement, death and physical resurrection, and physical second coming in power and glory. (If Christ came in AD 70, there was no power and no glory.)
It's call "History." He was born Lucius Domitius Ahenobarbus. The naming convention was to include his father's family name as his middle name. "Domitius" was his biological father's family name.
When he was 13 he was adopted by Emperor Claudius (his biological father was dead). After his adoption his name was changed to reflect who his new father was, Nero Claudius Augustus Germanicus. The "Claudius" indicated he was now the son of Claudius and thus heir to the Roman Empire.
Had anyone called him "Domitius" that person would have been instantly executed for denying Nero's right to the throne by denying that Claudius was his father.
Had he called himself "Domitius" he would have been saying that he was not the son of Claudius and thus had no legal right to the throne.
Please. Do just a little research on these subjects before you make such "insightful" statements and ask such "penetrating" questions.
Full Pretierism is heresy....Partial is just wrong!
Certainly - as we read the Gospels & Acts we see the prophecies of Jesus perfectly fulfilled. Then, of course, we see the Olivet prophecy fulfilled in detail, in Acts & in the AD 70 destruction where the prophecies of Mat. 24, Mark 13, Luke 21 were repeated in his Revelation to John, were fulfilled.
However, if you mean that Jesus in his life fulfilled the OC prophecies in a literal manner, that can be challenged, when we look at the prophecies quoted in their OC context. We should, of course accept the inspired report of the fulfillment in & by Jesus.
e.g.
Mat. 1:21 And she shall bring forth a son, and thou shalt call his name JESUS: for he shall save his people from their sins. 22 Now all this was done, that it might be fulfilled which was spoken of the Lord by the prophet, saying, 23 Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.
Isaiah 7:13 And he said, Hear ye now, O house of David; Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will ye weary my God also? 14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. 15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good. 16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.
How did Jesus fulfill vs 15 & 16 before he was a toddler? The kingdoms in question were Syria & Ephraim. Yet Isa. 7:14 was indeed wonderfully & literally fulfilled. Isaiah 7:13 And he said, Hear ye now, O house of David; Is it a small thing for you to weary men, but will ye weary my God also? 14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel. 15 Butter and honey shall he eat, that he may know to refuse the evil, and choose the good. 16 For before the child shall know to refuse the evil, and choose the good, the land that thou abhorrest shall be forsaken of both her kings.
Yes, we do like "spiritual interpretation." "Literal interpretation" is an oxymoron, as if interpretation is applied, it means the literal reading is not accepted.
Did Jesus encourage spiritual interpretation? Certainly!
John 3:3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. 4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother’s womb, and be born? 5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. 6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. 8 The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit.
John 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. 58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
.....
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
John 6:53 Then Jesus said unto them, Verily, verily, I say unto you, Except ye eat the flesh of the Son of man, and drink his blood, ye have no life in you. 54 Whoso eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, hath eternal life; and I will raise him up at the last day. 55 For my flesh is meat indeed, and my blood is drink indeed. 56 He that eateth my flesh, and drinketh my blood, dwelleth in me, and I in him. 57 As the living Father hath sent me, and I live by the Father: so he that eateth me, even he shall live by me. 58 This is that bread which came down from heaven: not as your fathers did eat manna, and are dead: he that eateth of this bread shall live for ever.
.....
63 It is the spirit that quickeneth; the flesh profiteth nothing: the words that I speak unto you, they are spirit, and they are life.
Fulfillment within the lifetime of this generation.
You are confusing the New Heaven & New Earth after the Lord's coming for resurrection & judgment at the end of the Gospel age,
with
the believers in heaven during the Gospel age.
Day & night continue on earth during the Gospel age, though presumably not in heaven.
The Hebrews quotes apply - see also references to the heavenly hope of the Patriarchs.
ALL of the OT prophecies concerning first coming of jesus were fulfilled literally correct? So why not the rest of them also then?
If "ALL of the OT prophecies concerning first coming of jesus were fulfilled literally" then there are no "rest of them."
So please help clear up the confusion.
Where is the location of this temple?
1) In heaven ?
Why then mention "in His temple" in the same clause as "day and night"?
2) On earth?
If on earth , where?
Thanks
HankD
They are, called His second coming yet to happen!
Please list 2 or 3 second coming OC prophesies so I can comment.
There is a vital passage in Revelation, not yet mentioned on this thread, that blows full preterism out of the water, and that is the description of the risen Christ in Ch. 1:
13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
What happened when John saw this risen and glorified Christ? "I fell at his feet as dead." What happens when this Christ of glory comes to earth? His very coming will destroy the Antichrist: "And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming" (2 Thess. 2:8).
The Christ of the preterists who supposedly came to earth in AD 70 did not resemble the Christ of Rev. 1 in the slightest. The Revelation Christ is full of power and glory so that people faint to see Him. The supposed Christ of the preterist second coming was "spiritual" and invisible. The Christ of the Bible is physical forever, and can be seen, touched and worshipped.
13 And in the midst of the seven candlesticks one like unto the Son of man, clothed with a garment down to the foot, and girt about the paps with a golden girdle.
14 His head and his hairs were white like wool, as white as snow; and his eyes were as a flame of fire;
15 And his feet like unto fine brass, as if they burned in a furnace; and his voice as the sound of many waters.
16 And he had in his right hand seven stars: and out of his mouth went a sharp twoedged sword: and his countenance was as the sun shineth in his strength.
What happened when John saw this risen and glorified Christ? "I fell at his feet as dead." What happens when this Christ of glory comes to earth? His very coming will destroy the Antichrist: "And then shall that Wicked be revealed, whom the Lord shall consume with the spirit of his mouth, and shall destroy with the brightness of his coming" (2 Thess. 2:8).
The Christ of the preterists who supposedly came to earth in AD 70 did not resemble the Christ of Rev. 1 in the slightest. The Revelation Christ is full of power and glory so that people faint to see Him. The supposed Christ of the preterist second coming was "spiritual" and invisible. The Christ of the Bible is physical forever, and can be seen, touched and worshipped.
1 Thessalonians 4:15-5:4 According to the Lord's own word, we tell you that we who are still alive, who are left till the coming of the Lord, will certainly not precede those who have fallen asleep. For the Lord himself will come down from heaven, with a loud command, with the voice of the archangel and with the trumpet call of god, and the dead in Christ will rise first. After that, we who are still alive and are left will be caught up together with them in the clouds to meet the Lord in the air. And so we will be with the Lord forever. Therefore encourage each other with these words. Now, brothers, about times and dates we do not need to write to you, for you know very well that the day of the Lord will come like a thief in the night. While people are saying, "Peace and safety," destruction will come on them suddenly, as labor pains on a pregnant woman, and they will not escape. But you, brothers, are not in darkness so that this day should surprise you like a thief.
The Second Coming will be a literal and physical one, as all eyes shall see Him!
Its an interesting discussion. I don't expect everyone to be convinced by my arguments, but I do appreciate it when there are serious counter arguments.
What I don't appreciate is the sort of one line comment that makes a trivial objection, & then another, but never thinks through the argument, nor makes any sort of real point.
I know people already with deep & well reasoned convictions will be unlikely to change, & will be ready to give a defence.
I believe the partial preterist position is the only line that gets to grips with the text as specific prophecy. In my view PPism allows an Gospel age amil application/interpretation of Revelation as it makes the whole book relevant to the church throughout the Gospel age. However that interpretation however well stated, as by Martin, isn't really an interpretation of the text, but is a general application. We can, of course, apply it to ourselves in our own situation, as Christians have down the ages.
But I haven't seen a valid futurist interpretation, as it removes the book from its immediate readers, & from the church, & thus removes the promised blessings - 3 Blessed ishe that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time isat hand.
I would like to see a disp interpretation of the seals. John?
What I don't appreciate is the sort of one line comment that makes a trivial objection, & then another, but never thinks through the argument, nor makes any sort of real point.
I know people already with deep & well reasoned convictions will be unlikely to change, & will be ready to give a defence.
I believe the partial preterist position is the only line that gets to grips with the text as specific prophecy. In my view PPism allows an Gospel age amil application/interpretation of Revelation as it makes the whole book relevant to the church throughout the Gospel age. However that interpretation however well stated, as by Martin, isn't really an interpretation of the text, but is a general application. We can, of course, apply it to ourselves in our own situation, as Christians have down the ages.
But I haven't seen a valid futurist interpretation, as it removes the book from its immediate readers, & from the church, & thus removes the promised blessings - 3 Blessed ishe that readeth, and they that hear the words of this prophecy, and keep those things which are written therein: for the time isat hand.
I would like to see a disp interpretation of the seals. John?
When did the Second Coming Happen then? and how would you expalin us being glorified then, and that there were things said yet to come?
I have only time for quick posts this week, since we are having a huge conference at our church and college, then "College Day" tomorrow.
I will say this. My answer would be predicated on the fact that Revelation is in the genre of apocalyptic literature. I did mention this fact, but you did not interact with it. Your posts as far as I've seen do not even define apocalyptic.
John has visions of the glorified Christ, but the glorious coming of the Lord in judgment, before the final coming for resurrection & judgment, will be veiled by clouds.
Exo. 40:34 Then a cloud covered the tent of the congregation, and the glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle. 35 And Moses was not able to enter into the tent of the congregation, because the cloud abode thereon, and the glory of the Lord filled the tabernacle.
- Status