Total Depravity vs Free Will

Actually no, I'm not. To say that one can be misled does not support total depravity. There is no question that people can be misled. Adam and Eve were misled, but not depraved. Clearly it was pointed out the the people could have could have believed the truth had they not been mislead which clearly does not support total depravity. As far as the rest of your comment, give me a break. I make one comment about a verse someone else used where you didn't understand what he was talking about and somehow that is me building theology by ignoring context and creating doctrine with no substance. I do not stake any of my theology on one verse and I didn't twist anything, that is what it says. Your comment has no substance and has crumbled.

 

Sounds like you admit that Matthew 23:13 has nothing to do with total depravity or free will. It's a start...

 

First of all it doesn't sound like I admitted anything and I am having trouble figuring out how you would have come to such a conclusion. Second, what is it a start for?

 

You know what would have been a real eye opener is in genesis 3?

God tells us the penalty for falling. Read it very carefully. I think the penalty of LOSING YOUR FREE WILL and TOTAL DEPRAVITY which basically guarantees one's damnation to hell would have been important enough to be mentioned here.


ARE non-Calvinist being UNREASONABLE as to question a Calvinist to provide the scripture that spells this out?

We get ZERO scripture. The best you get is quoting New Testament folks QUOTING OLD testament works and then pretending he isn't actually quoting the old testament at all, laying out brand new doctrine that is massively out of context.

All you have to do is provide the scripture, If scripture is being uncooperative with your doctrine that's just too bad for your doctrine.

You got as much less biblical backing for mankind losing his 3rd arm. None of you have 3 arms do you?




Genesis 3

14The LORD God said to the serpent,
“Because you have done this,
Cursed are you more than all cattle,
And more than every beast of the field;
On your belly you will go,
And dust you will eat
All the days of your life;
15And I will put enmity
Between you and the woman,
And between your seed and her seed;
He shall bruise you on the head,
And you shall bruise him on the heel.”
16To the woman He said,
“I will greatly multiply
Your pain in childbirth,
In pain you will bring forth children;
Yet your desire will be for your husband,
And he will rule over you.”
17Then to Adam He said, “Because you have listened to the voice of your wife, and have eaten from the tree about which I commanded you, saying, ‘You shall not eat from it’;
Cursed is the ground because of you;
In toil you will eat of it
All the days of your life.
18“Both thorns and thistles it shall grow for you;
And you will eat the plants of the field;
19By the sweat of your face
You will eat bread,
Till you return to the ground,
Because from it you were taken;
For you are dust,
And to dust you shall return.”
20Now the man called his wife’s name Eve, because she was the mother of all the living. 21The LORD God made garments of skin for Adam and his wife, and clothed them.
22Then the LORD God said, “Behold, the man has become like one of Us, knowing good and evil; and now, he might stretch out his hand, and take also from the tree of life, and eat, and live forever”— 23therefore the LORD God sent him out from the garden of Eden, to cultivate the ground from which he was taken. 24So He drove the man out; and at the east of the garden of Eden He stationed the cherubim and the flaming sword which turned every direction to guard the way to the tree of life.

 

Yawn.
You are arguing from silence. It's the same method that atheists use. It's no argument at all and only serves as an opportunity for you to blame God for not giving more information.

 

I am fully aware of all of this, but I can't mention every single thing or this would get very lengthy. Besides, all of that is part of salvation. You can't have salvation without the other things mentioned and you can't have the other things without salvation.

The verses we are referring to in Romans do not say that. They only say that no-one can call on him if they have not believed, and they cannot believe if they have not heard. John 4:41-42 the people believed because of what they heard. John 20:31 "but these are written so that you may believe that Jesus is the Christ, the Son of God, and that by believing you may have life in his name."

I'm drawing a blank. Where does Paul say "from grace to grace"? He does say "from faith to faith" in Romans 1:17 and John says "grace upon grace"

 

Come now, you have been around a lot longer than I have. I could have been ugly here but though I disagree with you I do not plan on intentionally disrespecting you.

 

I challenge that God removed your 3rd arm, you don't have 3 arms do you?

I claim This is the bible truth.

Would it be unreasonable to ask me to show you in scripture where God removes your 3rd arm?


Well where does it say God removed 3rd arms from mankind in the bible?

My response? You are arguing from silence, the same method that atheist use.






That's all we are saying, Hey we are even happy with your idea, Sign me up. I think mankind losing their free will and being totally depraved......That's a great IDEA, I LOVE IT.

I'm on your team brother! I'm thrilled and happy to be Calvinist.

Now just show us where scripture says it actually happened!

Of course its in the bible show it to us. We'd have to be an IDIOT to believe the bible doesn't say he removed our free will and made mankind totally depraved!

Now just show us where scripture says it actually happened!

 

Are you asking where the Bible says we were dead in our trespasses and sins before God made us alive?

Are you asking where the Bible says humans have free will? How might God remove the free will of a dead person?

Why are you so desperate to have free will? What benefit does it give you? Do you want the privilege of patting yourself on the back? I wonder what your motive is for desperately wanting free will.

 

Brother Martin,

Will you please go to post # 137 on page 7 and address this post?

 

TOTAL INABILITY

Called in Calvinism, Total Depravity, but actually taught as the Total Inability of man to choose Truth. It is a Calvinist word games. The Word of God teaches that God created man with the ability to reason, choose, and receive Truth.


Ephesians 2:8: "For by grace are ye saved through faith; and that not of yourselves: it is the gift of God."

Romans 10:17: "So then faith cometh by hearing, and hearing by the Word of God."

James 1:21: "Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and RECEIVE with meekness the engrafted Word, which is able to save your souls."

Isaiah1:18: "Come now, and let us REASON together, saith the LORD: though your sins be as scarlet, they shall be as white as snow; though they be red like crimson, they shall be as wool."

Deuteronomy 30:19: "I call heaven and earth to record this day against you, that I have set before you life and death, blessing and cursing: therefore CHOOSE LIFE, that both thou and thy seed may live."

Joshua 24:15: "And if it seem evil unto you to serve the LORD, CHOOSE you this day whom ye will serve; whether the gods which your fathers served that were on the other side of the flood, or the gods of the Amorites, in whose land ye dwell: but as for me and my house, we will serve the LORD."

Psalm 119:30, 111, 173: "I have CHOSEN The Way of Truth: Thy Judgments have I laid before me. … Thy Testimonies have I TAKEN as an heritage for ever: for They are the rejoicing of my heart. … Let Thine hand help me; for I have CHOSEN Thy Precepts."

John 1:12: "But as many as RECEIVED him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name."

2 Timothy 1:12: "… I know whom I have believed, and am persuaded that he is able to keep that which I have COMMITTED unto him against that day."

 

Dead doesn't mean dead, it means being separated from God. Think about it.

We're not really dead, so God did not have to make us alive. All He did was move us from point 'A' to point 'B' without improving our spiritial state.

Hate does not mean hate, just love less. Words become subjective and not definitive in non-Calism.

This is why our churches are a theological trainwreck.

 

Also, we have not passed from death to life, but from point 'A' to point 'B', from life to life, with no change in our spiritual state.

I said America's theology is 1/2" thick. I gave it too much credit. It's 1/64" thick.

 

BIBLICAL REGENERATION
REFUTES CALVINISM
(Part One)

Introduction

"For there are three that bear record in heaven, the Father, the Word, and the Holy Ghost: and these three are one." (1 John 5:7)

Titus 3:5-7: "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by THE WASHING OF REGENERATION, and renewing of the Holy Ghost; Which he shed on us abundantly through Jesus Christ our Saviour; That being justified by his grace, we should be made heirs according to the hope of eternal life."

The Father, The Word, and The Holy Ghost

God says that He "created man in his own image." Almighty JEHOVAH is a Tri-Unity (1 John 5:7; Matt. 28:20), therefore, He must have made man a trinity also. Note these passages of Scripture:

Genesis 1:26-27: "... God said, Let US make man in OUR image, after OUR likeness. ... So God created man in his own image, in the image of God created he him; male and female created he them."

Genesis 2:7: "And the LORD God formed man of THE DUST OF THE GROUND [body], and breathed into his nostrils THE BREATH OF LIFE [spirit]; and man became a living SOUL [the seat of emotions, desires, etc.]."

Then, we all know the story of Satan's tempting of Eve and Adam through her. The very day they disobeyed the single negative command of the Almighty their spirits died and they were separated from God, and they died physically within the first 1000 year day. All of Adam and Eve's progeny, all mankind, is born defective with only the residue of the spirit that needs to be regenerated by the Holy Ghost and His word.

Malachi 2:15: "And did not he make one? Yet had he the residue of the spirit. And wherefore one? That he might seek a godly seed. Therefore take heed to your spirit, and let none deal treacherously against the wife of his youth." (cf. Genesis 2:21-24)

This fall into sin is the reason the Lord Jesus tells us: "... Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. ... Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God." (John 3:3, 5)

When one repents in the fear of the Lord, knowing that Hell awaits him, and trusts in the finished work of Christ for his salvation, fully believing that God is ready, willing and able to do all that He promised, that one is instantly born again, his dead spirit is regenerated. Our dead spirits are made perfect and sinless, but our souls and bodies remain sinful till the resurrection. We must yield to our new natures as much as possible, and pray for God's power, but perfection is not yet!

1 John 3:9: "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God." (It is only our born again spirits that cannot sin.)

The Word of God Is Forever Settled In Heaven

"Quicken me after thy lovingkindness; so shall I keep the testimony of thy mouth. For ever, O LORD, thy word is settled in heaven." (Psalm 119:88-89)

The Hebrew word translated "settled" in Psalm 119:89 is also translated "appointed," "establish," "stablish," "set up," "standeth up," etc. God is eternal and before He created time He already was. The Almighty is likewise omniscient, knowing everything. Therefore, His word was establish before the foundation of the world. He likewise knew that Adam and Eve would fall into Satan's trap. However, Almighty JEHOVAH already had a plan to redeem whosoever would willingly receive the free pardon of their sins (Eph 1:4; 1 Pet 1:20). God's plan to redeem the lost involves His word as the prime instrument to induce salvation.

Because Our Spirits Are Dead We Must Be Born Again

Just as the One True God, the Father, the Son, and the Holy Ghost, is a Holy Trinity, so likewise each man is a trinity. God made him that way in His own image and likeness. Man is stillborn spiritually and his spirit must be born again for him to be save. To be saved we must believe the Holy Spirits testimony concerning Jesus Christ.

John 1:11-13: "He [The Word, Jesus Christ] was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But AS MANY AS (((RECEIVED))) HIM, TO THEM GAVE HE POWER TO BECOME THE SONS OF GOD, even to them that believe on his name: 13 WHICH WERE BORN, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but OF GOD." (cf. John 1:1-3, 14)

James 1:18, 21: "Of his own will BEGAT HE US WITH THE WORD OF TRUTH, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. ... Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and (((RECEIVE))) WITH MEEKNESS THE ENGRAFTED WORD, which is able to save your souls."

1 Peter 1:3, 22-23: "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath BEGOTTEN US AGAIN unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, ... Seeing ye have PURIFIED YOUR SOULS IN OBEYING THE TRUTH THROUGH THE SPIRIT unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being BORN AGAIN, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by THE WORD OF GOD, which liveth and abideth for ever."

2 Peter 1:3-4: "According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: 4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding GREAT AND PRECIOUS PROMISES: THAT BY THESE YE MIGHT BE PARTAKERS OF THE DIVINE NATURE, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust."

 

BIBLICAL REGENERATION
REFUTES CALVINISM
(Part Two)

Quicken Me after Thy Lovingkindness:

"Quicken" means "to make alive" and here has to do with salvation, that is, "regeneration" or being "born again" by the Holy Ghost and His word. By these we repent and believe the word of God. The Bible frequently uses symbolic language, and "water" is sometimes used as a symbol for God's word. For example:

Isaiah 55:7-11: "Let the wicked forsake his way, and the unrighteous man his thoughts: and let him return unto the LORD, and he will have mercy upon him; and to our God, for he will abundantly pardon. 8 For my thoughts are not your thoughts, neither are your ways my ways, saith the LORD. 9 For as the heavens are higher than the earth, so are my ways higher than your ways, and my thoughts than your thoughts. 10 For as THE RAIN cometh down, and THE SNOW from heaven, and returneth not thither, but watereth the earth, and maketh it bring forth and bud, that it may give seed to the sower, and bread to the eater: 11 SO SHALL MY WORD BE THAT GOETH FORTH OUT OF MY MOUTH: it shall not return unto me void, but IT SHALL ACCOMPLISH THAT WHICH I PLEASE, AND IT SHALL PROSPER IN THE THING WHERETO I SENT IT."

Ezekiel 36:25-27: "Then will I SPRINKLE CLEAN WATER UPON YOU, and ye shall be clean: from all your filthiness, and from all your idols, will I cleanse you. 26 A new heart also will I give you, and a new spirit will I put within you: and I will take away the stony heart out of your flesh, and I will give you an heart of flesh. 27 And I will put my spirit within you, and cause you to walk in my statutes, and ye shall keep my judgments, and do them."

Ephesians 5:25-27: "Husbands, love your wives, even as Christ also loved the church, and gave himself for it; That he might sanctify and cleanse it with THE WASHING OF WATER BY THE WORD, That he might present it to himself a glorious church ..."

John 3:3, 5-7: "... Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God. ... Verily, verily, I say unto thee, EXCEPT A MAN BE BORN OF WATER AND OF THE SPIRIT, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God. That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit. 7 Marvel not that I said unto thee, Ye must be born again. The wind bloweth where it listeth, and thou hearest the sound thereof, but canst not tell whence it cometh, and whither it goeth: so is every one that is born of the Spirit."

From the above verses using "water" as a symbol of God's word it is very clear that God uses the word of God in his work of regeneration. The same is clear from these passages:

John 1:11-13: "He [The Word, Jesus Christ] was in the world, and the world was made by him, and the world knew him not. 11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not. 12 But AS MANY AS RECEIVED HIM, TO THEM GAVE HE POWER TO BECOME THE SONS OF GOD, even to them that believe on his name: 13 WHICH WERE BORN, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but OF GOD." (cf. John 1:1-3, 14)

1 Peter 1:3, 22-23: "Blessed be the God and Father of our Lord Jesus Christ, which according to his abundant mercy hath BEGOTTEN US AGAIN unto a lively hope by the resurrection of Jesus Christ from the dead, ... Seeing ye have PURIFIED YOUR SOULS IN OBEYING THE TRUTH THROUGH THE SPIRIT unto unfeigned love of the brethren, see that ye love one another with a pure heart fervently: Being BORN AGAIN, not of corruptible seed, but of incorruptible, by THE WORD OF GOD, which liveth and abideth for ever."

1 John 3:9: "Whosoever is born of God doth not commit sin; for his seed remaineth in him: and he cannot sin, because he is born of God.

1 John 5:1, 4, 10, 18: "Whosoever believeth that Jesus is the Christ is BORN OF GOD: and every one that loveth him that begat loveth him also that is begotten of him. ... 4 For whatsoever is BORN OF GOD overcometh the world: and this is the victory that overcometh the world, even our faith. ... 10 He that believeth on the Son of God HATH THE WITNESS IN HIMSELF: he that believeth not God hath made him a liar; because he believeth not the record that God gave of his Son [this is the unforgivable sin]. ... 18 We know that whosoever is born of God sinneth not; but he that is begotten of God keepeth himself, and that wicked one toucheth him not." (cf. Matthew 12:30-32)

2 Peter 1:3-4: "According as his divine power hath given unto us all things that pertain unto life and godliness, through the knowledge of him that hath called us to glory and virtue: 4 Whereby are given unto us exceeding GREAT AND PRECIOUS PROMISES: THAT BY THESE YE MIGHT BE PARTAKERS OF THE DIVINE NATURE, having escaped the corruption that is in the world through lust."

Conclusion

1 John 2:1-2: "My little children, these things write I unto you, that ye sin not. And if any man sin, we have an advocate with the Father, Jesus Christ the righteous: 2 And he is the propitiation for our sins: and not for ours only, but also for the sins of THE WHOLE WORLD."

1 Timothy 2:3-6: "For this is good and acceptable in the sight of God our Saviour; 4 Who will have ALL MEN to be saved, and to come unto the knowledge of the truth. 5 For there is one God, and one mediator between God and men, the man Christ Jesus; 6 Who gave himself a ransom for all, to be testified in due time."

No one will be able to blame God for their being in eternal hell fire. He has made it simple for man to escape that terrible place of damnation.

To escape that place one must be born again. One must recognize his sinful condition and freely receive the Holy Spirit's word concerning Jesus Christ's sacrifice for them!

James 1:17-18, 21: "Every good GIFT and every perfect GIFT is from above, and cometh down from the Father of lights, with whom is no variableness, neither shadow of turning. Of his own will BEGAT HE US WITH THE WORD OF TRUTH, that we should be a kind of firstfruits of his creatures. ... Wherefore lay apart all filthiness and superfluity of naughtiness, and (((RECEIVE WITH MEEKNESS THE ENGRAFTED WORD))), which is ABLE to save your souls."

A free gift must be received. Receive the Truth of God's word; receive Jesus Christ as your Saviour and Lord! Do it now!

John 3:36: "He that believeth on the Son hath everlasting life: and he that believeth not the Son shall not see life; but the wrath of God abideth on him."

Titus 3:5: "Not by works of righteousness which we have done, but according to his mercy he saved us, by the washing of regeneration, and renewing of the Holy Ghost." (cf. Job 15:14, Job 25:4; Ps. 143:2; Isa. 57:12; Luke 10:29; Rom. 3:20, 28, 4:5, 11:6; Gal. 2:16, 3:16-21; Eph. 2:4, 8-9; 2 Tim. 1:9)

Revelation 21:7-8: "He that overcometh shall inherit all things; and I will be his God, and he shall be my son. But the fearful, and unbelieving, and the abominable, and murderers, and whoremongers, and sorcerers, and idolaters, and all liars, shall have their part in the lake which burneth with fire and brimstone: which is the second death." (cf. 1 John 4:4; 5:4-5; Rev. 3:5)

Don't be afraid of what others might think if you receive Jesus Christ; fear Almighty God!

1 Thessalonians 5:23: "... I pray God your whole SPIRIT and SOUL and BODY be preserved blameless unto the coming of our Lord Jesus Christ."