Featured Question on source - Paul's testimony of heavenly visit

Is he really?

I presume this is based on v5 yes?

However reading v5 in that way is a failure to follow Paul's argument - if he is speaking about anyone other then himself then his words are pointless - they detract from the flow of his argument rather then add to it.

So, why does he address his own experiences in the third person?

Well, maybe it is the rhetorical device of pseudonymity in apocalyptic writings - as a jew trained in the conservative school of Gamaliel that would have been part of his training.

The describe the event in the third person might derive from the very nature of the event itself - it was like he was watching himself experience it - consider what he says about not knowing if it was in the body or out of the body - v2.

Or maybe because of the way his opponents were boasting he decided to step away from such actions as he spoke about his own spiritual experiences. When we consider v1 we see Paul saying, 'it isn't helpful to boast, therefore I will talk about vision that I have had instead' (or at least that seems to be the best sense we can make of his words)

On the surface that sounds very pious - but actually it isn't - it is careless!

You seem to be suggesting that those who disagree with you do not believe Paul.

Now, personally it is my opinion that the person who believes Paul would take the time to read what Paul has said and take the time to meaningfully interact with what others have said in relation to Paul.

Why is it, I wonder, that the Genevan school of thought that produced the bible translation you so highly esteem believed this was Paul speaking about himself?

Where does the NT speak of this happening to John?

I can only assume you are referring to John's experiences that he recounts in the book of Revelation, can you point me where he describes his experience as being the one Paul describes - there is no reference to 'the third heaven' in Revelation, and as far as I can see whilst John gets to look into heaven he always seem to be outside of heaven - looking in (Rev 19:11 etc) and he is hearing voices coming from heaven (Rev 10:4) - his experience is not the same as Paul describes.

So, it isn't John, and if Paul isn't speaking about himself he is wasting ink and taking away from the flow of his argument against the false apostles in the church at Corinth.

 

Really, what about Rev 1:9

I, John, both your brother and companion in the tribulation and kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was on the island that is called Patmos for the word of God and for the testimony of Jesus Christ. (NKJ)

Is the testimony of John, written in the book of Revelation itself, not scriptural proof of John's location when he received the Revelation that he records?

 

Really, so when the Lord Jesus Christ says: "I am the Alpha and the Omega, the First and the Last," and1, "What you see, write in a book and send it to the seven churches which are in Asia2: to Ephesus, to Smyrna, to Pergamos, to Thyatira, to Sardis, to Philadelphia, and to Laodicea." (Rev 1:11 NKJ)

John thought to himself, 'no I won't do that - I will write it when I want to' - in fact by your thinking he had already written it as in the OP you place the dating of Revelation at 'about ad42' which is whilst John was still in Jerusalem before the beheading of James (Acts 12:2). My friend, your theory, not only ignores the witness of John in the book of Revelation - it turns the hole biblical chronolgy upside down and on it's head.

You are asking us to believe that John wrote a book and sent it to churches that were not even planted yet! Why would the Lord Jesus Christ tell him to do that?

Nor am I ignorant of the internet apologist device being put into practice here. Namely that you are routinely ignored the weight of evidence that is presented and refusing to address all the points being made but instead you are seeking to find one little point you can pick up on in the hope that the audience will not notice that weightier matters have been ignored

Why, for example, do you reject what those who provided you with the genevan bible clearly believed to be the case in regards to 2 Cor 12.

And can you establish from the book of Revelation that John's experience matches that experience that Paul describes - I have to be honest - I find your lack of response to this particular point most telling.

Now, above and beyond what I have already said, I have one more point to make - why did Paul receive the thorn in the flesh is he wasn't the one who experienced this vision?

2 Corinthians 12:7 And lest I should be exalted above measure by the abundance of the revelations, a thorn in the flesh was given to me, a messenger of Satan to buffet me, lest I be exalted above measure. 8 Concerning this thing I pleaded with the Lord three times that it might depart from me. 9 And He said to me, "My grace is sufficient for you, for My strength is made perfect in weakness." Therefore most gladly I will rather boast in my infirmities, that the power of Christ may rest upon me. 10 Therefore I take pleasure in infirmities, in reproaches, in needs, in persecutions, in distresses, for Christ's sake. For when I am weak, then I am strong. (2Co 12:7 NKJ)

So, in your thinking, John received the vision (which he has already written about whilst in Jerusalem back in AD42 and sent to churches that didn't exist) and Paul is the one who has to endure the thorn in the flesh that stops him becoming 'big headed' about this vision - why would Paul get a 'big head' about something that happened to John?

Forgive me, my friend, to me it sounds like utter nonsense and the lack of meaningful response and interaction with what I (and others) have written does nothing to establish the credibility of what you posit.

 

Paul was using irony.

 

What translation is this? The Greek word is not the word for "rejoice" (xairo), but kauxaomai, "I boast." At any rate, since it says "except..." (EI MH), it could be referring to Paul in the Greek.

 

What would constitute proof to you?

Rev. 1:9--"I John, who also am your brother, and companion in tribulation, and in the kingdom and patience of Jesus Christ, was in the isle that is called Patmos, for the word of God, and for the testimony of Jesus Christ."

 

It was Paul!... Is Paul!... And always will be Paul!... All the well know Bible commentators I've read disagree with you... Gill, Henry, Strong, ect... ect... ect... and it looks like all the brethren on the BB do to... You want to believe it is John that is your own private interpretation... Scripture always interprets scripture you just need to believe it what it says!... Brother Glen

 

I'm not sure what you are trying to say here. "It was Paul" who did what?

If you mean that John did not write the Revelation, may I suggest that you need new sources? Gill and Henry are old, old commentaries that you can get in most software packages for free. (Strong's is not a commentary.) Scholars ignore them. Furthermore, their theology is not mine. So frankly, I'm not a bit impressed that Gill and Henry disagree with me. I'll just agree with Walvoord, A. T. Robertson, Alan Johnson, and other modern commentators.

I'll just go with what the Scripture says, that John received the Revelation on Patmos. It would be extremely strange if he didn't write it down then.

 

I'll was not replying to you john of Japan... Sorry if you got that interpretation, I apologize... I was responding to the OP not what you said... Forgive me!... I feel totally embrassed... Brother Glen

 

If I implied that I'm sorry... I made a mistake and am totally embarrassed and will admit it to all... But you know me and my postings and how long I've been on the BB... I NEVER, EVER, EVER, believed Paul wrote Revelation... I just made a STUPID posting error... Maybe I should go hide under a rock!... There isn't a emicon on here to say how I feel right NOW!... Maybe coming back was a mistake?... Brother Glen

 

don't worry about it brother, it's not a big deal. it was cleared up.

 

That's quite all right, brother.

 

T.C. I guess I'm not the only one under a rock... You and the others made me feel better... Brother Glen