One Must Hold to the Physical bodily resurrection to be saved?

[Darrell C]

I was speaking of Gods Understanding, and you babble a remark that has nothing to do with that!

Well, if you really want a response...

Pfft! Nonsense. A person can be a Christian ~ and not be saved or born again.

No, actually, one is not a Christian until they are Regenerate, and this is a result of trusting on the Sacrifice of Christ, which...

...not one disciple did until they were enlightened by the Comforter.

You create a false dichotomy in the Body of Christ: those who are Regenerate, and...those who are not. You will not only not find support from this in the Word of God, you will see that Scripture makes this very clear.

We can start with...


John 3
King James Version (KJV)

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


And I will just point out that Nicodemus' response is in error, so we do not take what he states and try to make being born of water and Spirit...natural birth.

Christ makes this clear by distinguishing between being Born of the Spirit and being born of flesh:

John 3
King James Version (KJV)

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


John starts this Gospel off by making it clear as well:


John 1:11-13

King James Version (KJV)

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


Our Lord's point is that one must be "born from above," born of God.

Look at the disciples ~ They were called Christian's because they were "followers" of Christ and Christ's Gospel.

They are only called "Christians" by those who make the mistake of failing to see...they did not believe on Christ in a New Covenant sense.

The Disciples were called Christians only after Pentecost, and first at Antioch:


Acts 11:26
King James Version (KJV)

26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.


They did not understand the Prophecy of the Old Testament prior to the coming of the Comforter:


John 20:8-9
King James Version (KJV)

8 Then went in also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulchre, and he saw, and believed.

9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.


This is made clear in every Gospel.

Every person hearing, reading, listening to sermons, being enlightened to the truth are "learning About" Christ and are "following" the Gospel of Christ Jesus, and certainly can call themselves a Christian, as would anyone who observed them exiting a Christian Church meeting call them a Christian.

And that is the problem with Modern Christendom...too many think this to be true.

That is why we have "Christians" supporting Abortion, Homosexuality, and Liberal Theology.

One can only do that if they have not the Spirit of God.

So you can call people who have not received Eternal Redemption, the indwelling of GOd, and the new nature that comes in regeneration Christians, but don't think for a minute that is a Biblical position.

It is a secular and Liberal philosophy.

( They are talked about repeatedly in Scripture, as the ones WHO must be cautious because of their weakness of temptations to "falling away", because they have not yet submitted in faithfulness to the Lord and been forgiven, had their soul restored or their spirit quickened).

What ineffable twaddle!

If you would care to look at Apostasy, and why those in view are not Regenerate Christians, I'd be happy to help you with that.

But first, let me ask you...do you think you are a Christian...who has not be regenerated?

Secondly, please provide a Scriptural presentation for you philosophy. I would like to know where in the world in Scripture you have derived this nonsense.

Lastly, as I have repeatedly asked, what kind of Baptist are you?

The "saving" pertains to the whole of a man, BEFORE physical death occurs, BECAUSE the man has submitted in faithfulness to God.

It is true Salvation pertains to the entirety of man, however, the physical body is not changed in any manner when we are spiritually resurrected (born again, regenerate). We await the Redemption of our bodies, which will not take place until the Rapture.

When a man "submits in faith(fulness) he is immediately regenerated. This follows the Ministry of the Comforter Who has enlightened the natural mind to the Spiritual things of God, as Christ said He would (when He came, which followed the Lord's return to Heaven from whence He came):


John 16:7-9
King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;


It cannot be missed, as the Lord is very clear...this Ministry is towards unbelievers.

That is why it was expedient that Christ return to Heaven and send the Comforter.

Forgiveness given - body crucified and sanctified - soul restored - spirit quickened - new heart given -
Gods Spirit indwells.

Where do we see that "the body is crucified and sanctified?"

How does that negate the need for the redemption of the body?


Romans 8:20-23
King James Version (KJV)

20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.


So, since you seemed desirous of a response to your speaking about "God's understanding," here it is:

No-one is a Christian except they be born again.


God bless.

 

[Yeshua1]

Pfft! Nonsense. A person can be a Christian ~ and not be saved or born again.

Look at the disciples ~ They were called Christian's because they were "followers" of Christ and Christ's Gospel.

Every person hearing, reading, listening to sermons, being enlightened to the truth are "learning About" Christ and are "following" the Gospel of Christ Jesus, and certainly can call themselves a Christian, as would anyone who observed them exiting a Christian Church meeting call them a Christian.

( They are talked about repeatedly in Scripture, as the ones WHO must be cautious because of their weakness of temptations to "falling away", because they have not yet submitted in faithfulness to the Lord and been forgiven, had their soul restored or their spirit quickened).

There cannot be ANY Christians who do not have the Holy Spirit residing within them, and He only comes in those who have received Jesus and gotten saved!

 

[Yeshua1]

The clue is in the word, 'resurrection' - unless one is working on the premise that Jesus' spirit died, then one must conclude a physical resurrection - physical death - physical resurrection!

Good point, for while Jesus died in the flesh, His spirit went right to Paradise until he was raised up in that Physical body again!

 

[Yeshua1]

Well, if you really want a response...




No, actually, one is not a Christian until they are Regenerate, and this is a result of trusting on the Sacrifice of Christ, which...

...not one disciple did until they were enlightened by the Comforter.

You create a false dichotomy in the Body of Christ: those who are Regenerate, and...those who are not. You will not only not find support from this in the Word of God, you will see that Scripture makes this very clear.

We can start with...


John 3
King James Version (KJV)

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.

4 Nicodemus saith unto him, How can a man be born when he is old? can he enter the second time into his mother's womb, and be born?

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.


And I will just point out that Nicodemus' response is in error, so we do not take what he states and try to make being born of water and Spirit...natural birth.

Christ makes this clear by distinguishing between being Born of the Spirit and being born of flesh:

John 3
King James Version (KJV)

5 Jesus answered, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born of water and of the Spirit, he cannot enter into the kingdom of God.

6 That which is born of the flesh is flesh; and that which is born of the Spirit is spirit.


John starts this Gospel off by making it clear as well:


John 1:11-13

King James Version (KJV)

11 He came unto his own, and his own received him not.

12 But as many as received him, to them gave he power to become the sons of God, even to them that believe on his name:

13 Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.


Our Lord's point is that one must be "born from above," born of God.




They are only called "Christians" by those who make the mistake of failing to see...they did not believe on Christ in a New Covenant sense.

The Disciples were called Christians only after Pentecost, and first at Antioch:


Acts 11:26
King James Version (KJV)

26 And when he had found him, he brought him unto Antioch. And it came to pass, that a whole year they assembled themselves with the church, and taught much people. And the disciples were called Christians first in Antioch.


They did not understand the Prophecy of the Old Testament prior to the coming of the Comforter:


John 20:8-9
King James Version (KJV)

8 Then went in also that other disciple, which came first to the sepulchre, and he saw, and believed.

9 For as yet they knew not the scripture, that he must rise again from the dead.


This is made clear in every Gospel.




And that is the problem with Modern Christendom...too many think this to be true.

That is why we have "Christians" supporting Abortion, Homosexuality, and Liberal Theology.

One can only do that if they have not the Spirit of God.

So you can call people who have not received Eternal Redemption, the indwelling of GOd, and the new nature that comes in regeneration Christians, but don't think for a minute that is a Biblical position.

It is a secular and Liberal philosophy.




What ineffable twaddle!

If you would care to look at Apostasy, and why those in view are not Regenerate Christians, I'd be happy to help you with that.

But first, let me ask you...do you think you are a Christian...who has not be regenerated?

Secondly, please provide a Scriptural presentation for you philosophy. I would like to know where in the world in Scripture you have derived this nonsense.

Lastly, as I have repeatedly asked, what kind of Baptist are you?




It is true Salvation pertains to the entirety of man, however, the physical body is not changed in any manner when we are spiritually resurrected (born again, regenerate). We await the Redemption of our bodies, which will not take place until the Rapture.

When a man "submits in faith(fulness) he is immediately regenerated. This follows the Ministry of the Comforter Who has enlightened the natural mind to the Spiritual things of God, as Christ said He would (when He came, which followed the Lord's return to Heaven from whence He came):


John 16:7-9
King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;


It cannot be missed, as the Lord is very clear...this Ministry is towards unbelievers.

That is why it was expedient that Christ return to Heaven and send the Comforter.





Where do we see that "the body is crucified and sanctified?"

How does that negate the need for the redemption of the body?


Romans 8:20-23
King James Version (KJV)

20 For the creature was made subject to vanity, not willingly, but by reason of him who hath subjected the same in hope,

21 Because the creature itself also shall be delivered from the bondage of corruption into the glorious liberty of the children of God.

22 For we know that the whole creation groaneth and travaileth in pain together until now.

23 And not only they, but ourselves also, which have the firstfruits of the Spirit, even we ourselves groan within ourselves, waiting for the adoption, to wit, the redemption of our body.


So, since you seemed desirous of a response to your speaking about "God's understanding," here it is:

No-one is a Christian except they be born again.


God bless.

Paul stated pretty clearly that unless we now have the Holy Spirit, we have not Christ, so how we not believe in Jesus and not be saved and still be a Christian?

 

[Darrell C]

Paul stated pretty clearly that unless we now have the Holy Spirit, we have not Christ, so how we not believe in Jesus and not be saved and still be a Christian?

Yeshua...read the posts before responding.

Your question has no relevance to anything I have said.


God bless.

 

[Yeshua1]

My bad, was addressing the one who saw Christians as those not even being now saved!

 

[Happy]

No, actually, one is not a Christian until they are Regenerate, and this is a result of trusting on the Sacrifice of Christ, which...

You "dictate" repeatedly what "you" determine people are called. You think people can not "name tag" themselves, but you can?

You think a person in the process of LEARNING about Christ, is not follower of Christ's teachings?
You think because a person who IS following and believing, but not yet submitted, can not call themselves a Christian?

You are unaware of someone claiming they "WERE" a Christian, but "ARE" no more?
You think they WERE SAVED and then became "UNSAVED"? Because that is false.
The case is, THEY were learning, THEY were believing what they learned, THEY were following along, THEY were being enlightened to the truth, They were a Christian, and then THEY stumbled in to information, THEY could NOT believe, and departed the faith. And are no longer being enlightened to the truth, no longer believing and following after Christ's teaching and no longer a Christian.

Christian IS ALSO a man WHO has learned, followed along, AND continued AND became SURE IN HIS ELECTION to SUBMIT unto the Lord and did so, who thereafter shall NEVER depart the faith or depart being a Christian.

But no ~ "your" rules do not apply to what an other determines is applicable for "him" to be called.
A ten year old, still learning, but not yet submitted, absolutely can call himself a Christian, without your permission, acknowledgment or blessing.

...not one disciple did until they were enlightened by the Comforter.

Enlightenment is not a spiritual rebirth! The disciples were "enlightened" every day they learned Jesus' truth!

You create a false dichotomy in the Body of Christ: those who are Regenerate, and...those who are not. You will not only not find support from this in the Word of God, you will see that Scripture makes this very clear.

You make false claims. You dictate a carnal understanding and attempt to project it is spiritual understanding. Then add in your name tags, and name calling, as if that deflection makes what you say creditable.

We can start with...

And I will just point out that Nicodemus' response is in error, so we do not take what he states and try to make being born of water and Spirit...natural birth.

So WHAT? Neither did I, so your little lecture is irrelevant!

Christ makes this clear by distinguishing between being Born of the Spirit and being born of flesh:

So WHAT? I said nothing to the contrary. I have already spoken on there is a difference, so your little lecture is irrelevant!

Our Lord's point is that one must be "born from above," born of God.

So WHAT? What is YOUR POINT? I have already acknowledge, spoke of, a SECOND birth, that is from Gods Seed. Your little lecture on what I already know, and have already spoken of, is irrelevant!

They are only called "Christians" by those who make the mistake of failing to see...they did not believe on Christ in a New Covenant sense.

No. You limit the meaning of Christian to ONLY a born again Christian. I don't. I believe Christian means, a born again Christian OR a believer in Jesus and follower of his teachings, who has not yet decided to commit.

Christian~

1. a person who has received Christian baptism or is a believer in Jesus Christ and his teachings.

The Disciples were called Christians only after Pentecost, and first at Antioch:

uh huh, I know. Did THEY call themselves Christians? No. And why did others call them Christians?
Because they witnessed them receiving the Holy Spirit? No. Because they were followers of Christ and His teachings.

That is why we have "Christians" supporting Abortion, Homosexuality, and Liberal Theology.

Actually you have ALL KINDS of people supporting those things, and IF you examine such supporters closely, you would find ~ WHY they support such things ~ and it almost ALWAYS hinges on; someone in "their" family participates in those things and they choose to keep a relationship with "them", so come to "accept" those things. Once "acceptable", it is by default supported by them.

One can only do that if they have not the Spirit of God.

One can do that WHEN they can not choose between God and their "loved" ones.

So you can call people who have not received Eternal Redemption, the indwelling of GOd, and the new nature that comes in regeneration Christians, but don't think for a minute that is a Biblical position.

It is a secular and Liberal philosophy.

I can call ANYONE a Christian who calls himself a Christian, BECAUSE he is following in faith Christ's teaching.

But first, let me ask you...do you think you are a Christian...who has not be regenerated?

I was born naturally from my daddy's seed, and have been born again from Gods Seed.

Secondly, please provide a Scriptural presentation for you philosophy. I would like to know where in the world in Scripture you have derived this nonsense.

I don't claim to have a philosophy. I don't claim what you speak for me. I don't claim a string of man-made name tags is necessary. I do not claim you as my teacher.

I do claim Christ is God.
I do claim Jesus is the Christ.
I do claim Jesus IS the truth.
I do claim Gods Understanding of Scripture is given an individual BY God Himself.

So, no I will not satisfy your request.
"IF" you have a disagreement with "A" statement I have made....QUOTE "THAT" statement and announce your disagreement.

I don't care why, I don't care to sift through your deflecting name calling and I don't care to sift through you speaking for me.

It is true Salvation pertains to the entirety of man, however, the physical body is not changed in any manner when we are spiritually resurrected (born again, regenerate). We await the Redemption of our bodies, which will not take place until the Rapture.

I have already spoken on MAN waiting to SEE his bodily change.
God does not WAIT to SEE. He has already ACCOUNTED and PREPARED for our bodily change.

He calls our body "sanctified"
Rom.15

1. [16] That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.

When a man "submits in faith(fulness) he is immediately regenerated. This follows the Ministry of the Comforter Who has enlightened the natural mind to the Spiritual things of God, as Christ said He would (when He came, which followed the Lord's return to Heaven from whence He came):

I know the Way and Order and have already spoken of such. And it fully requires a man to TRUTHFULLY "submit" by the thoughts of his heart.

And don't be amiss, that are men WHO have and DO "claim a submission before a congregation of witnesses", WHO do not TRUTHFULLY believe, and ARE LYING to the Holy Spirit. And oops for them.

Where do we see that "the body is crucified and sanctified?"

Scripture;

Gal.2

1. [20] I am crucified with Christ: nevertheless I live; yet not I, but Christ liveth in me: and the life which I now live in the flesh I live by the faith of the Son of God, who loved me, and gave himself for me.

Acts.20

1. [32] And now, brethren, I commend you to God, and to the word of his grace, which is able to build you up, and to give you an inheritance among all them which are sanctified.

Rom.15

1. [16] That I should be the minister of Jesus Christ to the Gentiles, ministering the gospel of God, that the offering up of the Gentiles might be acceptable, being sanctified by the Holy Ghost.

How does that negate the need for the redemption of the body?

It doesn't. Our bodies are still on earth. Redemption is "redeeming", is claiming, is taking. Jesus descends from Heaven to the clouds, and redeems, takes, claims what is His to claim. All bodies are on earth and arise up to the clouds, as Jesus redeems what is His to take unto Him, where He is, ie the clouds....called ie Harpazo, ie Rapture.


Correct. We wait to be "claimed", redeemed. We wait for the ceremony of adoption.
God is still our Heavenly Father, even though the ceremony of adoption has not been SEEN. And Abraham is our Earthly Father, even though we were never Jews.

So, since you seemed desirous of a response to your speaking about "God's understanding," here it is:

No-one is a Christian except they be born again.

Christian is mans way to express a person having faith in Christ.
Born Again Christian is mans way to express a person having faith and submitted to Christ.

Scripture's expression is a man who trusts God, IS faithful to God, submits to God from the truth in his heart, is forgiven, his soul restored and saved, his spirit quickened, has overcome the world, and shall forever have life in Him and the forever have the Spirit of God, the Seed of God in him.

 

[th1bill]

My bad, was addressing the one who saw Christians as those not even being now saved!

Happy got all swollen when I brought up that I had communicated with her on another forum but except thefe are a pair of them that think exactly alike but she did state her sex as female over there. And when I tried to explain over there that saying you are a Christian doesn't make it so and several others chimed in trying to explain that church membership will get one no further than to Hell and she blew up and disappeared.

 

[Darrell C]

You "dictate" repeatedly what "you" determine people are called. You think people can not "name tag" themselves, but you can?

I don't dictate the terms, the Word of God dictates the terms, and the only way a person is a Christian is if they are born again.

Again, you create a false dichotomy as many Charismatics do, first, there is the regular old joe Christian who is saved, then, we have Super Christian! Whereas Old Joe is merely saved, Super Christian has been "baptized with the Holy Ghost," he has been "zapped" with supernatural super-powers.

So no, I don'[t think people can name tag, unless it is a designation or description from the Bible.

You think a person in the process of LEARNING about Christ, is not follower of Christ's teachings?

One cannot "learn of Christ" in their natural state. The only time this occurs is when one is under conviction of the Holy Ghost. Scripture makes that clear.

This is why the Old Testament Saints, including the disciples prior to Pentecost...did not understand Christ, either in Prophecy, or...when He told them directly the Gospel:


Matthew 16:21-23
King James Version (KJV)

21 From that time forth began Jesus to shew unto his disciples, how that he must go unto Jerusalem, and suffer many things of the elders and chief priests and scribes, and be killed, and be raised again the third day.

22 Then Peter took him, and began to rebuke him, saying, Be it far from thee, Lord: this shall not be unto thee.

23 But he turned, and said unto Peter, Get thee behind me, Satan: thou art an offence unto me: for thou savourest not the things that be of God, but those that be of men.


Peter is saying that the one thing that will save him from separation from God, and eternal separation from God...is something he is against. Peter will go on to physically try to keep the Lord alive, then, when that fails, denies Him to save his physical life.

Its right there in the Bible, Happy.

You think because a person who IS following and believing, but not yet submitted, can not call themselves a Christian?

They are not followers...unless they are born again, Happy, that is just a basic Bible Truth.

You are unaware of someone claiming they "WERE" a Christian, but "ARE" no more?

Actually I speak with Atheists all the time, and those who say "I was saved but no longer..." have one thing in common...they cannot, to the man...tell you how one is saved.

And they, like you, have no understanding of Salvation in Christ, which, though you call yourself a Baptist you sound more like a JW or Mormon.

So what exactly are you?

You think they WERE SAVED and then became "UNSAVED"? Because that is false.

Salvation is eternal, that is why Christ taught that He came to bestow Eternal Life.

Those who claim to have been saved and then become apostate are either men never saved, or those saved who have fallen so far into sin that they have become spiritually numb. That can happen, which is why we are commanded to...


Galatians 6:1
King James Version (KJV)

6 Brethren, if a man be overtaken in a fault, ye which are spiritual, restore such an one in the spirit of meekness; considering thyself, lest thou also be tempted.


Restoration can be necessary because of one vital fact about salvation you refuse to understand in its proper context...the un-redeemed body, the fallen flesh. This is why Paul makes it clear that we are to be diligent in our efforts because what we build, the efforts we seek to do, will result in reward, or lack thereof. Salvation cannot be lost because of the very nature of Remission of sins in Christ. It is Remission in Completion, and that being the case, there is nothing that the believer has done, or will do...that cannot be, and in fact already is...

...forgiven.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

The case is, THEY were learning, THEY were believing what they learned, THEY were following along, THEY were being enlightened to the truth,

There are two groups this occurs to, Happy:

1. Those being convicted by the Comforter, who are not yet saved;

2. Those who are saved.

Both groups being enlightened by the only One Who can enlighten man to spiritual truths, but only the latter are saved.

It is not until one yields to the Truth and turns to Christ, believing they are a sinner and that Christ is the remedy for their condition.

That is what Christ is teaching here...


John 16:7-9
King James Version (KJV)

7 Nevertheless I tell you the truth; It is expedient for you that I go away: for if I go not away, the Comforter will not come unto you; but if I depart, I will send him unto you.

8 And when he is come, he will reprove the world of sin, and of righteousness, and of judgment:

9 Of sin, because they believe not on me;


I emphasize sin because I like to point out that the group in view here are those not yet saved. That is defined by v.9.

Sin, righteousness, and judgment can be easily understood in most of the experiences those that have been saved went through: we are convicted of sin (that we are sinners), righteousness (that we are not and Christ is), and judgment (we understand that eternal judgment is our destiny, as the Comforter makes this very real to us).

They were a Christian,

There is no such thing as "were a Christian."

That is Liberal philosophy of those who have no understanding of how one is saved, and why Salvation is Eternal in Christ Jesus.

and then THEY stumbled in to information, THEY could NOT believe, and departed the faith.

And the solution, if that person is saved, is to speak to other believers who might be able to help them with what they are struggling with. We all go through that, Happy, there are things that arise in our walks which throw us for a loop sometimes.

So what is it that's bothering you. I am more than happy to help if I can.


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

And are no longer being enlightened to the truth, no longer believing and following after Christ's teaching and no longer a Christian.

It happens, but it has no impact on the reality of Salvation. If one is a born again indwelt Christian, they are always going to be a born again indwelt Christian.

But, that does not mean they are walking in obedience and filled with the Spirit.

In the Old Testament men were filled with the Spirit, that is a ministry that has occurred from Day Six, lol. In this Era, we are both Indwelt as well as filled. In the Old, the Spirit would fill, as well as depart from the sinner. In the New, this Age, the indwelling of God remains (because we are in Him and He in us), but it is possible for the believer not to be in close communion with GOd.

And again, we look to the fallen flesh: it is easy to succumb to lusts and desire our flesh inflicts on us.

You think they WERE SAVED and then became "UNSAVED"? Because that is false.

I don't think that, it is false, both the fact as well as your argument. Nothing I have ever said implies such rubbish.

Christian IS ALSO a man WHO has learned, followed along, AND continued

"Continued" is the key word. Salvation is best evidenced by continuing in the faith, despite times when we fall into sin, or have our faith shaken (and we all go through this at some point or another, at least most of us. I know it has happened to me).

AND became SURE IN HIS ELECTION

There is such a thing as false assurance. This is why it is written...


2 Peter 1:10
King James Version (KJV)

10 Wherefore the rather, brethren, give diligence to make your calling and election sure: for if ye do these things, ye shall never fall:


Who better to hear this from than Peter, who vehemently denied he even knew the Lord to save his own skin, not realizing that the Lord would save him eternally.

Paul makes a similar statement:


2 Corinthians 13:5
King James Version (KJV)

5 Examine yourselves, whether ye be in the faith; prove your own selves. Know ye not your own selves, how that Jesus Christ is in you, except ye be reprobates?


I thank God I did not "grow up in the Church," because many of those I have seen who have can take for granted the knowledge they receive (and I think we can all do that too).


Continued...

 

[Darrell C]

Christian IS ALSO a man WHO has learned, followed along, AND continued AND became SURE IN HIS ELECTION to SUBMIT unto the Lord and did so, who thereafter shall NEVER depart the faith or depart being a Christian.

I agree with that, but, again, one is not a Christian if they are not...in Christ.

And He in him/her.

But no ~ "your" rules do not apply to what an other determines is applicable for "him" to be called.

They only apply insofar as they are Biblical Principles, and the fact is I can dogmatically state that "No man or woman who is not born again...is Christian."

And I will be happy to show you, or anyone that denies that why that is true from Scripture.

A ten year old, still learning, but not yet submitted, absolutely can call himself a Christian,

One can intellectually understand the "facts" of the Bible, but that does not mean they understand them in reality. One can, for example, believe there is a Hell, but until God shows a person that this is where they are headed they are not going to understand it personally.

There are many who call themselves Christians that make it clear that they have no spiritual understanding of the Word of God..at all.

And let me tell you something, Happy, God can forgive all sin, even Abortion. The only sin God cannot forgive is when you reject what He is telling your heart, because that is where He is going to center His attention.


Continued...

 

[Yeshua1]

You "dictate" repeatedly what "you" determine people are called. You think people can not "name tag" themselves, but you can?

You think a person in the process of LEARNING about Christ, is not follower of Christ's teachings?
You think because a person who IS following and believing, but not yet submitted, can not call themselves a Christian?

You are unaware of someone claiming they "WERE" a Christian, but "ARE" no more?
You think they WERE SAVED and then became "UNSAVED"? Because that is false.
The case is, THEY were learning, THEY were believing what they learned, THEY were following along, THEY were being enlightened to the truth, They were a Christian, and then THEY stumbled in to information, THEY could NOT believe, and departed the faith. And are no longer being enlightened to the truth, no longer believing and following after Christ's teaching and no longer a Christian.

Christian IS ALSO a man WHO has learned, followed along, AND continued AND became SURE IN HIS ELECTION to SUBMIT unto the Lord and did so, who thereafter shall NEVER depart the faith or depart being a Christian.

But no ~ "your" rules do not apply to what an other determines is applicable for "him" to be called.
A ten year old, still learning, but not yet submitted, absolutely can call himself a Christian, without your permission, acknowledgment or blessing.



Enlightenment is not a spiritual rebirth! The disciples were "enlightened" every day they learned Jesus' truth!



You make false claims. You dictate a carnal understanding and attempt to project it is spiritual understanding. Then add in your name tags, and name calling, as if that deflection makes what you say creditable.



Christian is mans way to express a person having faith in Christ.
Born Again Christian is mans way to express a person having faith and submitted to Christ.

Scripture's expression is a man who trusts God, IS faithful to God, submits to God from the truth in his heart, is forgiven, his soul restored and saved, his spirit quickened, has overcome the world, and shall forever have life in Him and the forever have the Spirit of God, the Seed of God in him.

Unless one has been reborn from above and now have the Holy Spirit within them, they are not Christian!

 

[Happy]

Isa 7:14 Therefore the Lord himself shall give you a sign; Behold, a virgin shall conceive, and bear a son, and shall call his name Immanuel.

uh huh conceive ie; "be pregnant" and then bear a son, ie "deliver forth out of her womb a son, male child."

You deny that Jesus was biologically a descendant of Abraham, David, and Mary.

Correct. I do not agree with a man-devised explanation.

John.1

1. [13] Which were born, not of blood, nor of the will of the flesh, nor of the will of man, but of God.

Mary was not an incubator for an alien body.

Prove it. Since John 1:13 just notified you Jesus was not born of blood, will of the flesh, or will of man.

She conceived AND bore a son.

Yes, she was pregnant and from her womb a son was revealed.

If you deny that Jesus was a biological descendant of Abraham, David, and Mary through the virgin conception, you are a flaming hetetic. Period. Please feel free to correct my assessments if I am wrong.

You make a false accusation. The Word of God, came out from God.

John 1:13 which were born.....of God.

Came out from God....< spiritual notification .... born or God....< term mankind should comprehend.

First it was prophecy -

Isa 55:
[11] So shall my word be that goeth forth out of my mouth: it shall not return unto me void, but it shall accomplish that which I please, and it shall prosper in the thing whereto I sent it.

So where did the Lord send His Word?

Matt.1

1. [23] Behold, a virgin shall be with child, and shall bring forth a son, and they shall call his name Emmanuel, which being interpreted is, God with us.

And? What was Gods Word called?

Luke.1

1. [35] And the angel answered and said unto her, The Holy Ghost shall come upon thee, and the power of the Highest shall overshadow thee: therefore also that holy thing which shall be born of thee shall be called the Son of God.

And? Why was he called the Son of God?

Heb.1

1. [5] For unto which of the angels said he at any time, Thou art my Son, this day have I begotten thee? And again, I will be to him a Father, and he shall be to me a Son?

And where did this Son's body come from? A man seed? A woman's egg? God having sex with a human woman?

Heb.10

1. [5] Wherefore when he cometh into the world, he saith, Sacrifice and offering thou wouldest not, but a body hast thou prepared me:

Created body? no. Body from the seed of a man? no Body from the seed of a woman? no
Prepared of God? Yes.

And what did the Word of God, called the Son of God, called Jesus, then revealed as the Christ, do with that body prepared of God?

He took it UPON Himself.

Phil 2 [7] ...took upon him the form of a servant,

And who on earth are servants of God? men.

And what does a mans of earth's form LOOK LIKE? Open your eyes and see.

So what does scripture tell us The Word of Gods form looked like?

Phil [7] ... the likeness of men:

What kind of men? Servants of God!

Who are servants of God?

First it was men WHO "Heard" Gods WORD, and obeyed.
Then it was men WHO "Had" received Gods WORD, in "their" mouth, and obeyed.

Whom had God put HIS WORD in "THEIR" EARS? And WHY?

Deut.4

1. [10] Specially the day that thou stoodest before the LORD thy God in Horeb, when the LORD said unto me, Gather me the people together, and I will make them hear my words, that they may learn to fear me all the days that they shall live upon the earth, and that they may teach their children.

What people?

The "PEOPLE" established as servants of God.

Gen.28
[1] And Isaac called Jacob, and blessed him, and charged him, and said unto him, Thou shalt not take a wife of the daughters of Canaan.
[2] Arise, go to Padan-aram, to the house of Bethuel thy mother's father; and take thee a wife from thence of the daughters of Laban thy mother's brother.
[3] And God Almighty bless thee, and make thee fruitful, and multiply thee, that thou mayest be a multitude of people;

continued...

 

[Happy]

continued -

And from WHAT (seed) did Isaac and Jacob come from that they are the servants of God and seed to inherit land?

[4] And give thee the blessing of Abraham, to thee, and to thy seed with thee; that thou mayest inherit the land wherein thou art a stranger, which God gave unto Abraham.

And who is Jesse?

Also from the seed of Abraham, a servant of God, given inheritance of land.

Ruth 4 [22] And Obed begat Jesse, and Jesse begat David.

Isa.11

1. [1] And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:

Who is the rod?

Rev.12

1. [5] And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

And who is the Branch ?

Jer.23

1. [5] Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.

Jer.42

1. [20] For ye dissembled in your hearts, when ye sent me unto the LORD your God, saying, Pray for us unto the LORD our God; and according unto all that the LORD our God shall say, so declare unto us, and we will do it.

You should have learned - God spoke to men - men agreed to follow after Gods Word.
You should have learned - God was the God of men who agreed to follow after Gods Word.
You should have learned - They became called Hebrews.
You should have learned - Of the Hebrews, SOME began to falter and not follow after Gods Word.
You should have learned - Of the Hebrews, SOME STAYED faithful to God....

And they were called FAITHFUL SERVANTS.

You should have learned - WHEN God fulfilled His Word and appeared unto mankind and walked among men and taught them......He came to earth in the likeness AS A MAN....AND....in the The historical line of the seed of men WHO were FAITHFUL, and CONTINUED in Faithfulness to God and His Word.

You should have learned ~ NOT all of Abraham's descendants were faithful - BUT the ones who were - is accounted as the Ancestors and Descendants of the Word of God called, Son of God and JESUS.

You should have learned - OF the faithful descendants of Abraham - they trusted the Word of God - the Word of God was in them - they served God and Abraham was called their "father".

You should have learned - having the Word of God in you - Trusting and Keeping the Word of God in you IS having the Seed of God in you - IS having the Spirit of God in you - IS making you a child of Abraham - is making Abraham 'your father' on earth - is a fulfillment of God's promise that Abraham would be a father of many nations - which is Abraham IS the father of all people's of all nations who have the Word of God in them - who have the Seed of God in them - who have the Holy Spirit in them - who have direct access Spiritually to Gods knowledge, Wisdom and Understanding.

You should have learned - The Word of God, is Jesus, is the Son of God, is the Christ, is God, appeared to mankind in the likeness AS A MAN, A faithful Servant, a Son of Abraham, called the Son of man, called the Lord OF Lord, called the true Light, called the Redeemer, called God WITH US.

You should have learned - Men of Abraham's direct linage, who did not trust or believe Gods Word; Jesus Himself denounced their linage to Abraham, even though they were from Abraham's "stock" sperm seed.

John 8
[39] They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

You should have learned Abraham's "children" are not Spiritually accounted from Abraham's "stock" sperm, but rather, Abraham's "children" are those WHO, have the Word of God, the Seed of God, in them.

I am a child of Abraham - though I am not a Hebrew, not a Jew, but a Gentile. However I have taken upon myself the same Seed as Abraham has, WHICH IS Christ the Lord Jesus, thus I also, am a son of man, just as Jesus claimed He is, Because Jesus also took upon Himself the Seed of Abraham.

Gal 3

[16] Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Heb.2

1. [16] For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

Gal 3

29] And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Gal 3
[7] Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

The Word of God entering into a human has NOTHING whatsoever to do with a human's blood, will of the flesh, or will of man, or copulation, or a man or woman's natural seed!

I am not the only one who has called you out for teaching gnosticism, and you have yet to deny that charge and explain why you are not, in fact, a gnostic.

Agree ~ you are not the only one WHO teaches from the thoughts of your carnal mind - rather than the truth that the Lord feeds to a mans thoughts in his new spirit in his new heart.

Agree ~ you are not the only one WHO makes false accusations, because you are unknowing of the truth of Gods Understanding.

Agree ~ you make God dependent upon a created being's natural seed.

Agree ~ you call people man-made names, as if that makes you creditable in preaching God is dependent on a created woman's seed, in order for God to appear to mankind in a fashion that pleased Him.

gnos·tic
relating to knowledge, especially esoteric mystical knowledge.

es·o·ter·ic
intended for or likely to be understood by only a small number of people with a specialized knowledge or interest.

I don't require "name tags"
Scripture itself teaches God has from the beginning things known to HIM, but a MYSTERY to mankind.
Scripture itself teaches God reveals what was a MYSTERY to mankind; has the knowledge thereof uncovered.
Scripture itself teaches God reveals the UNDERSTANDING of the uncovered mysteries of knowledge, to those whom are faithful to Him.
Scripture itself teaches FEW shall receive the Understanding of the mysteries of God.

You can continue to preach your carnal understanding and call others names because you have not advanced to Gods Understanding ~ and that has ZERO affect on me ~ since it is you who is the false testifier, not me. It is you who is accountable for what you do.

Col.1

1. [9] For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;

"ye might be filled with spiritual understanding"......but then again "ye might not".....since you stagnate on "carnal understanding".

Have a nice day that the Lord has made.

 

[Darrell C]

without your permission, acknowledgment or blessing.

Bless you, my child.

Enlightenment is not a spiritual rebirth!

No, enlightenment is the means of spiritual rebirth.

And as I have tried to tell you before, we have to understand Regeneration, not in a sense of God taking what is present and making it new, but God giving us something we never had, which is...

...eternal life.

We do view our own persons, our souls, our selves...to be made new, but, that is a result of the indwelling of God.

Regeneration is what take place when one is reconciled to God, and immersed into God. That is what Christ is speaking about when He tells the disciples (Acts 1:4-5) that they will soon be "Baptized with the Holy Ghost."

Christ is the Baptizer, John the Baptist makes that clear:


Matthew 3:11-12

King James Version (KJV)

11 I indeed baptize you with water unto repentance. but he that cometh after me is mightier than I, whose shoes I am not worthy to bear: he shall baptize you with the Holy Ghost, and with fire:

12 Whose fan is in his hand, and he will throughly purge his floor, and gather his wheat into the garner; but he will burn up the chaff with unquenchable fire.


Two baptisms are in view here, the first being the Baptism with the Holy Ghost, which is, as John states, accomplished by Christ, and the second is the baptism with fire, fire being euphemistic for judgment often in Scripture.

This understanding is defined by John in v.12, where we see that in view is Christ purging His floor, gathering His wheat (believers), and...

burning up the chaff with unquenchable fire.

Unquenchable fire is never extinguished, Happy, and this refers to the Eternal Punishment and eternal separation Christ often taught.

So while the natural man can indeed come to a natural, intellectual understanding of the Bible, that does not mean they have been first enlightened to the Gospel of Christ, and secondly...that they have received Christ.

We see men like that described here...


2 Peter 2:20-22
King James Version (KJV)

20 For if after they have escaped the pollutions of the world through the knowledge of the Lord and Saviour Jesus Christ, they are again entangled therein, and overcome, the latter end is worse with them than the beginning.

21 For it had been better for them not to have known the way of righteousness, than, after they have known it, to turn from the holy commandment delivered unto them.

22 But it is happened unto them according to the true proverb, The dog is turned to his own vomit again; and the sow that was washed to her wallowing in the mire.


These are they who have come under the convicting Ministry of the Holy Ghost, the Comforter, but have turned from the truth. These are not saved men, for they are equated with the false prophets of the Old Testament 2 Peter 2:1), and we would not ascribe a condition of "believing" to them either.

So I agree...

Enlightenment is not a spiritual rebirth!

...but, enlightenment is something afforded both natural and spiritual man/woman. For the natural man, it is within the efforts of the convicting ministry of the Holy Ghost. For the spiritual man, it is within the efforts of raising a child, that is, the child of God. And if God demands of men that they raise up their children in the way they should go, do we not trust our Heavenly Father will far exceed that which man can do for his earthly children?


Continued...

 

[Yeshua1]

continued -

And from WHAT (seed) did Isaac and Jacob come from that they are the servants of God and seed to inherit land?

[4] And give thee the blessing of Abraham, to thee, and to thy seed with thee; that thou mayest inherit the land wherein thou art a stranger, which God gave unto Abraham.

And who is Jesse?

Also from the seed of Abraham, a servant of God, given inheritance of land.

Ruth 4 [22] And Obed begat Jesse, and Jesse begat David.

Isa.11

1. [1] And there shall come forth a rod out of the stem of Jesse, and a Branch shall grow out of his roots:

Who is the rod?

Rev.12

1. [5] And she brought forth a man child, who was to rule all nations with a rod of iron: and her child was caught up unto God, and to his throne.

And who is the Branch ?

Jer.23

1. [5] Behold, the days come, saith the LORD, that I will raise unto David a righteous Branch, and a King shall reign and prosper, and shall execute judgment and justice in the earth.

Jer.42

1. [20] For ye dissembled in your hearts, when ye sent me unto the LORD your God, saying, Pray for us unto the LORD our God; and according unto all that the LORD our God shall say, so declare unto us, and we will do it.

You should have learned - God spoke to men - men agreed to follow after Gods Word.
You should have learned - God was the God of men who agreed to follow after Gods Word.
You should have learned - They became called Hebrews.
You should have learned - Of the Hebrews, SOME began to falter and not follow after Gods Word.
You should have learned - Of the Hebrews, SOME STAYED faithful to God....

And they were called FAITHFUL SERVANTS.

You should have learned - WHEN God fulfilled His Word and appeared unto mankind and walked among men and taught them......He came to earth in the likeness AS A MAN....AND....in the The historical line of the seed of men WHO were FAITHFUL, and CONTINUED in Faithfulness to God and His Word.

You should have learned ~ NOT all of Abraham's descendants were faithful - BUT the ones who were - is accounted as the Ancestors and Descendants of the Word of God called, Son of God and JESUS.

You should have learned - OF the faithful descendants of Abraham - they trusted the Word of God - the Word of God was in them - they served God and Abraham was called their "father".

You should have learned - having the Word of God in you - Trusting and Keeping the Word of God in you IS having the Seed of God in you - IS having the Spirit of God in you - IS making you a child of Abraham - is making Abraham 'your father' on earth - is a fulfillment of God's promise that Abraham would be a father of many nations - which is Abraham IS the father of all people's of all nations who have the Word of God in them - who have the Seed of God in them - who have the Holy Spirit in them - who have direct access Spiritually to Gods knowledge, Wisdom and Understanding.

You should have learned - The Word of God, is Jesus, is the Son of God, is the Christ, is God, appeared to mankind in the likeness AS A MAN, A faithful Servant, a Son of Abraham, called the Son of man, called the Lord OF Lord, called the true Light, called the Redeemer, called God WITH US.

You should have learned - Men of Abraham's direct linage, who did not trust or believe Gods Word; Jesus Himself denounced their linage to Abraham, even though they were from Abraham's "stock" sperm seed.

John 8
[39] They answered and said unto him, Abraham is our father. Jesus saith unto them, If ye were Abraham's children, ye would do the works of Abraham.

You should have learned Abraham's "children" are not Spiritually accounted from Abraham's "stock" sperm, but rather, Abraham's "children" are those WHO, have the Word of God, the Seed of God, in them.

I am a child of Abraham - though I am not a Hebrew, not a Jew, but a Gentile. However I have taken upon myself the same Seed as Abraham has, WHICH IS Christ the Lord Jesus, thus I also, am a son of man, just as Jesus claimed He is, Because Jesus also took upon Himself the Seed of Abraham.

Gal 3

[16] Now to Abraham and his seed were the promises made. He saith not, And to seeds, as of many; but as of one, And to thy seed, which is Christ.

Heb.2

1. [16] For verily he took not on him the nature of angels; but he took on him the seed of Abraham.

Gal 3

29] And if ye be Christ's, then are ye Abraham's seed, and heirs according to the promise.

Gal 3
[7] Know ye therefore that they which are of faith, the same are the children of Abraham.

The Word of God entering into a human has NOTHING whatsoever to do with a human's blood, will of the flesh, or will of man, or copulation, or a man or woman's natural seed!




Agree ~ you are not the only one WHO teaches from the thoughts of your carnal mind - rather than the truth that the Lord feeds to a mans thoughts in his new spirit in his new heart.

Agree ~ you are not the only one WHO makes false accusations, because you are unknowing of the truth of Gods Understanding.

Agree ~ you make God dependent upon a created being's natural seed.

Agree ~ you call people man-made names, as if that makes you creditable in preaching God is dependent on a created woman's seed, in order for God to appear to mankind in a fashion that pleased Him.

gnos·tic
relating to knowledge, especially esoteric mystical knowledge.

es·o·ter·ic
intended for or likely to be understood by only a small number of people with a specialized knowledge or interest.

I don't require "name tags"
Scripture itself teaches God has from the beginning things known to HIM, but a MYSTERY to mankind.
Scripture itself teaches God reveals what was a MYSTERY to mankind; has the knowledge thereof uncovered.
Scripture itself teaches God reveals the UNDERSTANDING of the uncovered mysteries of knowledge, to those whom are faithful to Him.
Scripture itself teaches FEW shall receive the Understanding of the mysteries of God.

You can continue to preach your carnal understanding and call others names because you have not advanced to Gods Understanding ~ and that has ZERO affect on me ~ since it is you who is the false testifier, not me. It is you who is accountable for what you do.

Col.1

1. 
   
   
   • [9] For this cause we also, since the day we heard it, do not cease to pray for you, and to desire that ye might be filled with the knowledge of his will in all wisdom and spiritual understanding;

"ye might be filled with spiritual understanding"......but then again "ye might not".....since you stagnate on "carnal understanding".

Have a nice day that the Lord has made.

The seed of Abraham was/is Jesus, and only those have been now saved by Jesus are part of His Covenant promise!

 

[Darrell C]

The disciples were "enlightened" every day they learned Jesus' truth!

This is true, but...

...they were not yet born again Christians.

You will likely deny that, but, that is the fact. They were unbelieving until Pentecost:


Mark 16:9-14
King James Version (KJV)

9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

10 And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.

11 And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.

12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.

13 And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.

14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.


The disciples were carnal in their understanding, which is why, when told they would be Baptized with the Holy Ghost (immersed into God, as promised in John 14)...they are still asking if the Lord is going to restore Israel physically:


Acts 1:4-6
King James Version (KJV)

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?

You make false claims.

So show me why. Show me how...I make false claims. All I am doing is showing you what Scripture states.

Refute Scripture.

You dictate a carnal understanding and attempt to project it is spiritual understanding.

Take it however you like, but consider what is being said.

If you could refute it...you would.

Wouldn't you?

Then add in your name tags, and name calling, as if that deflection makes what you say creditable.

Point out the first instance of deflection. I have, in this thread and the other, addressed your proposals directly and provided you with Scripture that supports what I myself propose.

Christian is mans way to express a person having faith in Christ.

I agree. But the question is...whether there is faith or not. Many take the "faith" of the disciples, for example, and equate that with Eternal Redemption, Eternal Life, and Eternal Indwelling. That is a mistake.

Just as it is a mistake to think that membership to a church is...being a Christian.

Go stand in a garage and see if you become a car.

Born Again Christian is mans way to express a person having faith and submitted to Christ.

No, Happy...that is Liberal Philosophy.

It is not Biblical Doctrine.

Regeneration is a literal event in the life of the natural man by which they are placed in God and God in them. The new heart, and new spirit are a result of the Baptism with the Holy Ghost (immersion into God). And just as John's disciples were lierally identified with john, even so we are then literally identified with Christ, hence...

...we are Christians.

Scripture's expression is a man who trusts God, IS faithful to God, submits to God from the truth in his heart, is forgiven, his soul restored and saved, his spirit quickened, has overcome the world, and shall forever have life in Him and the forever have the Spirit of God, the Seed of God in him.

This is true, however, Abraham was faithful, called the friend of GOd...and was not eternally redeemed by the Blood of Christ. Not until Christ died, that is.

David was called a man after God's Own heart, but still had to offer up animal sacrifice for his murder and adultery. He died having only an animal die in his place.

But in this Age, when we turn to Christ, we receive immediately that which the Old Testament Saints did not receive...Reconciliation and immersion into God Himself.

The Promises of God were prophesied, and not received until Christ:


Hebrews 11:13
King James Version (KJV)

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

They were not made perfect, or, complete, in regards to remission of sins, which is what the Promise of the New Covenant held. That is also stated of the Faithful of the Old Testament in Hebrews 11:


Hebrews 11:39-40
King James Version (KJV)

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.



The reason why their faith in God, or the progression of their salvation, is not to be equated with the Faith of Christ is because...that is what God has commanded:

Hebrews 6
King James Version (KJV)

1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,


He is telling his Hebrew brethren (and you can see his rebuke of them for their ignorance and sloth in regards to understanding of Christ in Hebrews 5:10-14) that they are not to remain in the Covenant of Law and the basic principles the Law provided, but are to go on unto...perfection.

Not laying again the foundational principles, and among those foundational principles is faith towards God.

The reason is because the Comforter has come to enlighten men to the glorious Gospel of Jesus Christ, and of foundational principles made complete in Christ.

Simply;y believing in God is not going to cut it, one must come into obedience to the Gospel of Christ, for that is the only provision there is for man today, even for the Hebrew, who once had his relationship with GOd through the Covenant of Law.

This is why Christ appeals to the disciples in John 15 to abide in the True Vine, not in the Vine that formerly they trusted in, which was Israel herself.

It is clear...


John 3
King James Version (KJV)

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.



God bless.

 

[Yeshua1]

This is true, but...

...they were not yet born again Christians.

You will likely deny that, but, that is the fact. They were unbelieving until Pentecost:


Mark 16:9-14
King James Version (KJV)

9 Now when Jesus was risen early the first day of the week, he appeared first to Mary Magdalene, out of whom he had cast seven devils.

10 And she went and told them that had been with him, as they mourned and wept.

11 And they, when they had heard that he was alive, and had been seen of her, believed not.

12 After that he appeared in another form unto two of them, as they walked, and went into the country.

13 And they went and told it unto the residue: neither believed they them.

14 Afterward he appeared unto the eleven as they sat at meat, and upbraided them with their unbelief and hardness of heart, because they believed not them which had seen him after he was risen.


The disciples were carnal in their understanding, which is why, when told they would be Baptized with the Holy Ghost (immersed into God, as promised in John 14)...they are still asking if the Lord is going to restore Israel physically:


Acts 1:4-6
King James Version (KJV)

4 And, being assembled together with them, commanded them that they should not depart from Jerusalem, but wait for the promise of the Father, which, saith he, ye have heard of me.

5 For John truly baptized with water; but ye shall be baptized with the Holy Ghost not many days hence.

6 When they therefore were come together, they asked of him, saying, Lord, wilt thou at this time restore again the kingdom to Israel?




So show me why. Show me how...I make false claims. All I am doing is showing you what Scripture states.

Refute Scripture.




Take it however you like, but consider what is being said.

If you could refute it...you would.

Wouldn't you?




Point out the first instance of deflection. I have, in this thread and the other, addressed your proposals directly and provided you with Scripture that supports what I myself propose.




I agree. But the question is...whether there is faith or not. Many take the "faith" of the disciples, for example, and equate that with Eternal Redemption, Eternal Life, and Eternal Indwelling. That is a mistake.

Just as it is a mistake to think that membership to a church is...being a Christian.

Go stand in a garage and see if you become a car.




No, Happy...that is Liberal Philosophy.

It is not Biblical Doctrine.

Regeneration is a literal event in the life of the natural man by which they are placed in God and God in them. The new heart, and new spirit are a result of the Baptism with the Holy Ghost (immersion into God). And just as John's disciples were lierally identified with john, even so we are then literally identified with Christ, hence...

...we are Christians.




This is true, however, Abraham was faithful, called the friend of GOd...and was not eternally redeemed by the Blood of Christ. Not until Christ died, that is.

David was called a man after God's Own heart, but still had to offer up animal sacrifice for his murder and adultery. He died having only an animal die in his place.

But in this Age, when we turn to Christ, we receive immediately that which the Old Testament Saints did not receive...Reconciliation and immersion into God Himself.

The Promises of God were prophesied, and not received until Christ:


Hebrews 11:13
King James Version (KJV)

13 These all died in faith, not having received the promises, but having seen them afar off, and were persuaded of them, and embraced them, and confessed that they were strangers and pilgrims on the earth.

They were not made perfect, or, complete, in regards to remission of sins, which is what the Promise of the New Covenant held. That is also stated of the Faithful of the Old Testament in Hebrews 11:


Hebrews 11:39-40
King James Version (KJV)

39 And these all, having obtained a good report through faith, received not the promise:

40 God having provided some better thing for us, that they without us should not be made perfect.



The reason why their faith in God, or the progression of their salvation, is not to be equated with the Faith of Christ is because...that is what God has commanded:

Hebrews 6
King James Version (KJV)

1 Therefore leaving the principles of the doctrine of Christ, let us go on unto perfection; not laying again the foundation of repentance from dead works, and of faith toward God,


He is telling his Hebrew brethren (and you can see his rebuke of them for their ignorance and sloth in regards to understanding of Christ in Hebrews 5:10-14) that they are not to remain in the Covenant of Law and the basic principles the Law provided, but are to go on unto...perfection.

Not laying again the foundational principles, and among those foundational principles is faith towards God.

The reason is because the Comforter has come to enlighten men to the glorious Gospel of Jesus Christ, and of foundational principles made complete in Christ.

Simply;y believing in God is not going to cut it, one must come into obedience to the Gospel of Christ, for that is the only provision there is for man today, even for the Hebrew, who once had his relationship with GOd through the Covenant of Law.

This is why Christ appeals to the disciples in John 15 to abide in the True Vine, not in the Vine that formerly they trusted in, which was Israel herself.

It is clear...


John 3
King James Version (KJV)

3 Jesus answered and said unto him, Verily, verily, I say unto thee, Except a man be born again, he cannot see the kingdom of God.



God bless.

That is true regarding the Apostles as jesus told then they the Spirit was with them now, but would be in then then!

 

[Darrell C]

That is true regarding the Apostles as jesus told then they the Spirit was with them now, but would be in then then!

And it is an important point, because if we do not distinguish between the ministry of the Holy Ghost in previous Ages, and the Ministry performed distinct to this Age, then we miss one of the most profound teachings Christ gave us:


John 14:15-18
King James Version (KJV)

15 If ye love me, keep my commandments.

16 And I will pray the Father, and he shall give you another Comforter, that he may abide with you for ever;

17 Even the Spirit of truth; whom the world cannot receive, because it seeth him not, neither knoweth him: but ye know him; for he dwelleth with you, and shall be in you.

18 I will not leave you comfortless: I will come to you.


It often amazes me that from time to time someone will raise an objection to evangelism that teaches people to "ask Jesus to come into their 'hearts'," and suggest this is a false concept that is not found in Scripture. We see above that the Comforter Christ will send will be with the disciples for ever (as contrasted with His telling the disciples "I am leaving"), that at that time (which shows it is not happening at the time of the teaching) rather than being "with them" He will be "in them" (and we must not ignore the distinctions Christ makes), and, He states...

"...I will come to you.

This is reiterated shortly after:


John 14:20-23
King James Version (KJV)

20 At that day ye shall know that I am in my Father, and ye in me, and I in you.

21 He that hath my commandments, and keepeth them, he it is that loveth me: and he that loveth me shall be loved of my Father, and I will love him, and will manifest myself to him.

22 Judas saith unto him, not Iscariot, Lord, how is it that thou wilt manifest thyself unto us, and not unto the world?

23 Jesus answered and said unto him, If a man love me, he will keep my words: and my Father will love him, and we will come unto him, and make our abode with him.


For those who are not Trinitarian...pay attention to the words of our Lord here.

The indwelling of God in this Age is distinguished from the filling of the Spirit in the Old Testament. Christ sets the day in which these things would be fulfilled, and at the time of this teaching it is yet future.

Here is Christ telling us that it is perfectly acceptable to tell people they should ask Jesus into their hearts:


Revelation 3:20
King James Version (KJV)

20 Behold, I stand at the door, and knock: if any man hear my voice, and open the door, I will come in to him, and will sup with him, and he with me.



God bless.